Colonisation/terraforming - Eve vs Duna

[Kimberly]

INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER.

(props to Asimov.)

I love that story. But surely, given the composition and size of the Martian icecaps, it would be possible to make an educated guess?

[Flixxbeatz]

Eve is great for colonies....

...penal colonies that is.

No one will find parts and a rocket large enough to escape the impending doom!

But thanks for giving me an idea. Hmmm....

[fenderzilla]

When oxygen first formed on Earth, it nearly killed all life that was on Earth at the time, it was poison it which only a few extremophiles at the time were able to live with.

Ah, reading some Michael Chrichton, I see

[Kidneythump]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this already but an oxygenated atmosphere virtually guarantees life in one form or another, oxygen ain't the most stable of molecules if you know what i mean, it has to be actively produced since everything likes to react with it. As far as I can tell (from a rather quick google search) there are some reactions that produce oxygen but these aren't what one would call planet-wide phenomenon (you'd need a **** ton of potassium super-oxide that's for sure). If there's enough oxygen for jets to fly there has to have been life there for quite a while, life that's either sheltered from the radiation or have developed some hardcore radiation shielding. If single celled organisms can find a way to eke out an existence there so can the kerbals!

Oh and also, if there's oxygen and water and these two exist in gaseous phase you most like get cloud formation, if you've got clouds it ain't that far of a stretch of the imagination that there'll be lightning as well, if you got lightning you get ozone which is a kick-ass radiation shield.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Kidneythump

[chaos_forge]

^This. Oxygen = life. Oxygen (as its name implies) will want to oxidize anything it comes into contact with, so a constant planet-wide chemical reaction that releases oxygen is required to maintain the levels. So far, the only such reaction that we know of is carbon-based life.

[czokletmuss]

Yay, the old thread is still going

Considering that Eve is Venus analogue and Duna is Mars analogue, the answer is pretty obvious to me. Best places to colonize in the whole system are Duna (ideal place), Laythe (perfect but too far away), Ike and Mun. That's about it if we want to do this in a realistic-looking way.

[fenderzilla]

Eve's atmosphere is 5 times thicker than Kerbin's and 25 times thicker than Duna's. This means that safe landings on Eve (parachutes) are much easier, but taking off is next to impossible. Duna is the exact opposite. If you want to land a ton of stuff but not really leave (I heard someone talking about a penal colony), Eve's you're choice. But if you want to go back and forth from Kerbin, Go with Duna.

As for Laythe, the Devs plan to add tons of volcanos and radiation. this would make it hotter, but much less habitable. I think It might also explain how oxygen got into the atmosphere - since atmospheres are mainly made by volcanic gas. as for how oxygen got into the mantle, that's another story. maybe there's iron oxide, which would get launched into the atmosphere and the bonds would be broken somehow. the heavier iron particles would fall back down.

[Mrmisquito]

What about laythe?

[chaos_forge]

What about laythe?

Dude . . . read the thread.

[NERVAfan]

I'm sorry but every time I see someone post this I have to laugh

It's such a ridiculous idea, the only reason it persists is because we have the mother of all sampling bias'

It is PRIMARILY released in OUR atmosphere by photosynthesis, however it is NOT exclusive to that process. Any body with outgassing will have oxygen in it's atmosphere

Small amounts of free oxygen can be generated by other processes, sure, like breaking up water molecules by electrolysis (lightning) or by radiation (as on Europa - an incredibly tenuous "atmosphere" of oxygen has been found around Europa).

But high partial pressures of free oxygen, as in Earth's atmosphere, need something producing it at a very high rate since it is so reactive. And there aren't really many other possibilities - radiation and lightning won't do it, the radiation environment at Europa is pretty intense and it's like a hundred billion times less oxygen partial pressure than Earth.

[The Fog]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this already but an oxygenated atmosphere virtually guarantees life in one form or another, oxygen ain't the most stable of molecules if you know what i mean, it has to be actively produced since everything likes to react with it. As far as I can tell (from a rather quick google search) there are some reactions that produce oxygen but these aren't what one would call planet-wide phenomenon (you'd need a **** ton of potassium super-oxide that's for sure). If there's enough oxygen for jets to fly there has to have been life there for quite a while, life that's either sheltered from the radiation or have developed some hardcore radiation shielding. If single celled organisms can find a way to eke out an existence there so can the kerbals!

Oh and also, if there's oxygen and water and these two exist in gaseous phase you most like get cloud formation, if you've got clouds it ain't that far of a stretch of the imagination that there'll be lightning as well, if you got lightning you get ozone which is a kick-ass radiation shield.

+1

Well said. Especially about Oxygen and water => Cloud part.

However,

Laythe has its own day / night cycle, it's orbit w.r.t. Kerbol (the Sun) and the water vapor in the atmosphere should give it seasons so it should have rainy seasons like Earth.

If its ozone layer isn't thick enough to stop radiation, which I think should be the case given its proximity to Jool, rainfall will wash the radioactive particles in the atmosphere into the ocean and I think the ocean would be pretty radioactive.

Therefore I'm not quite convinced Laythe ocean is "safe".

Anyway, it seems life in KSP universe had no problem dealing with radiation.

Just look that those Kerbals who doesn't seem worried about the liberal use of RTG and NERVA engines. They don't even care being blasted in the face by NERVA engine exhaust!

[Brotoro]

+1

Well said. Especially about Oxygen and water => Cloud part.

However,

Laythe has its own day / night cycle, it's orbit w.r.t. Kerbol (the Sun) and the water vapor in the atmosphere should give it seasons so it should have rainy seasons like Earth.

If its ozone layer isn't thick enough to stop radiation, which I think should be the case given its proximity to Jool, rainfall will wash the radioactive particles in the atmosphere into the ocean and I think the ocean would be pretty radioactive.

Therefore I'm not quite convinced Laythe ocean is "safe".

Anyway, it seems life in KSP universe had no problem dealing with radiation.

Just look that those Kerbals who doesn't seem worried about the liberal use of RTG and NERVA engines. They don't even care being blasted in the face by NERVA engine exhaust!

I think you misunderstand radiation belts. The radiation belts around planets are made up of mainly electrons and protons (with a small fraction of other atomic nuclei) that are moving at very high velocities, trapped in the magnetic field of the planet. These charged particles are dangerous to spacecraft because when they hit the hull of the craft, they are stopped and dump their energy in the form of X-rays. These X-rays can then cause damage to the contents of the spacecraft, such as transistors in the microchips, or molecules in cells.

A substantial atmosphere will stop these particles (and the X-rays they produce) when the particles hit the upper part of the atmosphere. An ozone layer does not play a part in this (ozone blocks certain wavelengths of ultraviolet radiation in sunlight).

There will be no "radioactive particles" to wash out of the atmosphere once these electrons and protons come to a stop. They are only dangerous in space because they are moving very fast and cause the X-rays when they hit your ship.

[The Fog]

I think you misunderstand radiation belts. The radiation belts around planets are made up of mainly electrons and protons (with a small fraction of other atomic nuclei) that are moving at very high velocities, trapped in the magnetic field of the planet. These charged particles are dangerous to spacecraft because when they hit the hull of the craft, they are stopped and dump their energy in the form of X-rays. These X-rays can then cause damage to the contents of the spacecraft, such as transistors in the microchips, or molecules in cells.

A substantial atmosphere will stop these particles (and the X-rays they produce) when the particles hit the upper part of the atmosphere. An ozone layer does not play a part in this (ozone blocks certain wavelengths of ultraviolet radiation in sunlight).

There will be no "radioactive particles" to wash out of the atmosphere once these electrons and protons come to a stop. They are only dangerous in space because they are moving very fast and cause the X-rays when they hit your ship.

You are correct about the radiation belt and that ozone had nothing to do with it. It's probably time for me to pick up that old physics textbook again, but alas, crashing something into Duna is more enjoyable.

I'm sorry for my bad writing in my original post that mixed up the two completely irrelevant stuff.

As for radioactive particles in Laythe's atmosphere, a bit of re-thinking and some research showed it should be minimal.

That reminded me about induced radioactivity, which I clearly forgot in my original post.

Oxygen and common atmospheric gas elements are resistant to neutron activation, combined with the fact that there shouldn't be much neutron / alpha radiation out there, the effect should be minimal.

Solar wind (Or Kerbolar Wind?) shouldn't have enough energy to cause photodisintegration.

Therefore, radioactive particles inside Laythe's atmosphere should be indeed minimal.

Sorry, my bad for giving wrong information in the original post.

However, before declaring Laythe being safe, we'd probably need to think how Laythe's atmosphere plays within Jool's magnetic field (if there is one).

The above only addresses for radiation from space alone.

The upper Laythe atmosphere could get ionized and swept up by Jool's magnetic field and completely change the composition of the radiation around Laythe.

So... I'm still puzzled.

[Sof]

Oh and also, if there's oxygen and water and these two exist in gaseous phase you most like get cloud formation, if you've got clouds it ain't that far of a stretch of the imagination that there'll be lightning as well, if you got lightning you get ozone which is a kick-ass radiation shield.

The ozone layer isn't formed due to lightning. Sure, you get ozone if lighting strikes in an atmosphere with oxygen in, but our ozone layer comes from the reaction between oxygen and UV light high in the atmosphere. Nothing to do with clouds.

[Rondon]

Now THAT is a GREAT plan!

If you're interested in that idea coming to fruition a fellow competitor used the same idea in a prison colony challenge I was in a short while back, it was pretty neat stuff.

Now the thread's about which would be easier to colonize either Duna or Eve,then laythe entered the fray as well, but wouldn't the first logical target for colonization surely be the Moon/Mun or in all actuality Minmus, its the cheapest to go to, its quick,its safe but most practically would have an actual economic reason for existence and continued expansion, the extraction and export of Fuel to low Kerbin/Earth orbit,which could and in all probability would tremendously reduce the cost to travel through space, and although you would be exposed to radiation outside of the home planet's magnetosphere, the protection costs would be far lower than heading to nearly any interplanetary target.

[fenderzilla]

If you're interested in that idea coming to fruition a fellow competitor used the same idea in a prison colony challenge I was in a short while back, it was pretty neat stuff.

Now the thread's about which would be easier to colonize either Duna or Eve,then laythe entered the fray as well, but wouldn't the first logical target for colonization surely be the Moon/Mun or in all actuality Minmus, its the cheapest to go to, its quick,its safe but most practically would have an actual economic reason for existence and continued expansion, the extraction and export of Fuel to low Kerbin/Earth orbit,which could and in all probability would tremendously reduce the cost to travel through space, and although you would be exposed to radiation outside of the home planet's magnetosphere, the protection costs would be far lower than heading to nearly any interplanetary target.

Yeah but minmus is so small I doubt it could hold an atmosphere. how are you planning to solve the problem of - oh - breathing?

Small amounts of free oxygen can be generated by other processes, sure, like breaking up water molecules by electrolysis (lightning) or by radiation (as on Europa - an incredibly tenuous "atmosphere" of oxygen has been found around Europa).

But high partial pressures of free oxygen, as in Earth's atmosphere, need something producing it at a very high rate since it is so reactive. And there aren't really many other possibilities - radiation and lightning won't do it, the radiation environment at Europa is pretty intense and it's like a hundred billion times less oxygen partial pressure than Earth.

yeah, well maybe laythe's just very, very old. It takes a while for oxygen to build up in a water-moon's atmosphere, but if you gave it a really long time, it might be possible. It doesn't need to be produced at such a high rate any more, since if it's been producing oxygen steadily for billions of years all the stuff on its surface might have oxidised already. also, laythe might have just gotten lucky and formed from elements that don't react with oxygen (just cause earth's a bunch of iron and silicon doesn't mean everything is)

[chaos_forge]

yeah, well maybe laythe's just very, very old. It takes a while for oxygen to build up in a water-moon's atmosphere, but if you gave it a really long time, it might be possible. It doesn't need to be produced at such a high rate any more, since if it's been producing oxygen steadily for billions of years all the stuff on its surface might have oxidised already. also, laythe might have just gotten lucky and formed from elements that don't react with oxygen (just cause earth's a bunch of iron and silicon doesn't mean everything is)

Oxygen needs to be produced at a high rate because it disappears from the atmosphere at a high rate. Oxygen will bind with just about anything. Laythe would have to be composed of some kind of solidified noble gas for it to not react with oxygen. Most people don't realize just how reactive oxygen is. The only element more electronegative than oxygen is Fluorine, which is so reactive it has at times been called "the gas of Lucifer".

[-RanZ-]

If you want easy mode do Duna, if you want hard core do Eve! Eve is not 1 way, you can build ships to lift people and stuff off the surface, it just is not that easy.

[chri]

bah, Laythe is the way!

[lazarus1024]

Oxygen needs to be produced at a high rate because it disappears from the atmosphere at a high rate. Oxygen will bind with just about anything. Laythe would have to be composed of some kind of solidified noble gas for it to not react with oxygen. Most people don't realize just how reactive oxygen is. The only element more electronegative than oxygen is Fluorine, which is so reactive it has at times been called "the gas of Lucifer".

Yes, Laythe would have to have biological processes producing free Oxygen to have any. Oxygen only exists in Earth's atmosphere because so much of the life on Earth works by liberating Oxygen from Carbon Dioxide to produce sugars as well as a lot of their cellular structure (more carbon to oxygen in a sugar molecule than there is in the 1:2 Carbon Dioxide). Mars has basically no free oxygen because it has reacted with surface minerals oxidizing them and/or bound to carbon in the form of carbon dioxide gas and ice.

One of the biggest issues is that a planet with no magneto sphere, or an incredibly weak one, would lose all of its water over time. Any atmospheric water (IE water vapor) will eventually be dissasociated because of UV and high energy particle interaction. The Hydrogen will then easily be blow off by solar wind errosion. It isn't something that happens on the time scale of millenia, more like hundreds of millions of years, but Mars is a Prime example. As is likely Venus. Neither have atmospheric water vapor on any meaningful scale in comparison to the Earth.

A Duna/Mars analog does have a huge advantage in that melting both the CO2 cap and H2O polar caps would liberate significant amounts of gas in to the atmosphere and provide a thick layer of liquid water. IIRC the Mars Northern polar cap, which is mostly water, would be sufficient to cover the entire surface of Mars with about 10 meters of water. Granted, the surface isn't one level, so you'd end up with a number of oceans and seas. I am not sure the topography results, but I'd wager you'd probably end up with 15-30% of the surface covered in water ranging from shore line to probably a couple of hundred meters deep in places. The CO2 frozen in the polar caps (Southern cap is mostly dry ice, nothern cap has a thin layer of dry ice over it and plenty of dry ice permafrost) I think is sufficient to create something approaching 30% Earth's sea level atmospheric pressure...enough to not need a pressure suit, though it wouldn't be breathable. Mix in plenty of CO2 to O2 conversion overtime and the atmosphere would be breathable if the CO2 was reduce to extremely low levels and the O2 was brought up to at least 70-80% of the mixture. You'd probably need to add some pressure buffer gases, nitrogen and such. Probably some cometary bombardment and/or some asteroids and stuff from the outer planets should suffice (plenty of them have lots of amonia and it will dissociate to nitrogen and hydrogen gas given some time close in and warmer).

Eve/Venus you have to deal with removing about 70 atmospheres worth of pressure as well as possibly reducing insolation of the planet. Duna/Mars with a 30-40% atmosphere with a bit higher component of green house gases than Earth likely would be at a survivable temperature. Colder than Earth, but probably short sleeve weather near the equator in summer time. Winters might be a little brutal. Eve/Venus on the other hand, even with getting atmospheric pressure to 100% Earth normal, you'd have to deal with the fact that it gets hit with twice the light that Earth does. It would probably keep temperatures habitable, but you would not want to live near the Equator. "Arctic" circle and above probably. In addition if Eve follows Venus in day/night cycle, you also have to spin the planet faster. The long day/night cycle (about 116 Earth days long as it takes about 230 days to orbit and also spin retrograde at a speed of about 210 days per rotation), would mean that things would cook on the day side and freeze on the night side. Right now temperatures are pretty stable across the planet only because of the super thick atmosphere. Have a thin breathable atmosphere and that would not be the case. High speed winds and temperature extremes would be the likely result. You'd probably have to spin the planet up by at least 3-6x faster than it is now to keep from having huge temperature swings.

Removing that much atmosphere is bad enough, spinning up an entire planet is pretty much in the "beyond science fiction" realm. Real terraforming, Mars is about our only option in the real Solar system that might actually some day be within our capability short of science fiction. We probably could terraform it using our current or very near term technological capabilities so long as we were willing to put in the time and economic investment to do it. It would likely take a couple of centuries to terraform it to the level of not needing a space suit to walk around outside and probably a couple of millenia to not need some kind of breathing aperatus. It wouldn't be super comfortable, but there would likely be a large swath of the planet that would be habitable and comfortable. Keeping it habitable super long term would be an issue as solar wind would still blow off hydrogen from disassociated water vapor because of a lack of magnetic field, but it isn't something future settlers would have to worry about for millions of years and could be replenished through asteroid/comet/ice moon mining and periodic replenishment. I'd wager a guess that there is probably enough water-ice in the solar system to keep the atmosphere of Mars replenished for probably billions of years until the sun goes Red Giant phase and makes the atmosphere content issue moot.

[Skyler4856]

12000DV no thanks I'll pass

[chaos_forge]

In addition if Eve follows Venus in day/night cycle, you also have to spin the planet faster. The long day/night cycle (about 116 Earth days long as it takes about 230 days to orbit and also spin retrograde at a speed of about 210 days per rotation), would mean that things would cook on the day side and freeze on the night side. Right now temperatures are pretty stable across the planet only because of the super thick atmosphere. Have a thin breathable atmosphere and that would not be the case. High speed winds and temperature extremes would be the likely result. You'd probably have to spin the planet up by at least 3-6x faster than it is now to keep from having huge temperature swings.

Eve has a 22 hour day (source: KSP wiki), so that's probably not a problem. The atmospheric pressure + threefold gravity would still make it very uncomfortable and extremely hard to get off of.

[Skorpychan]

Terraforming?

More like kerbiforming.

Anyway. I'd think that Duna would be easier; easier to make an atmosphere than to alter it.

[Rondon]

Yes fenderzilla Minmus could not hold an atmosphere at least not for very long by the usual standards and the sheer amount of breathable air that would have to be transported from somewhere in the solar system is unimaginable, but i'm not talking about terraforming it just colonizing, setting up an underground base that as well producing fuel by electrolysis of water deposits that you would find on Mun as long as its similar to the moon in its possession of small frozen ice deposits, but i'm not sure about Minmus, it may or may not have and trace amounts of water, but with the water you can keep some for hydration, some for fuel(separated tanks of oxygen and hydrogen) and create some Oxygen for life support on another note 100% oxygen would be extremely uncomfortable and dangerous ,as it turns out the moon does have trace elements of nitrogen which can be used to create an 20/80 oxygen to nitrogen air balance (again Minmus may or may not have trace nitrogen), this would be mined at least in small quantities because no matter how good the conservation of air/water etc gets it just wont quite reach 100%.

[lazarus1024]

Underground colonization, Minimus would likely be the best target. One downside to long term habitation though is the low gravity. Of course Astronauts get by in zero G for a year and more okay enough. So long term settlement, supposing you rotated off to some place with higher gravity for awhile, shouldn't be a problem. You'd probably need to do only 1-2 year shifts before a 3-4 month rotation home (or longer).

We aren't even sure if Humans could live in the .38g of Mars long term without deletrious health impacts. We assume we could though. The one sixth G of the Moon is likely too low for really long term habitation (beyond a handful of years) and Minimus even lower gravity would probably not be any better than zero G for long term habitablity.

For a Kerbal though...well, who knows. They seem to be able to manage just fine in nothing but a skin suit admiring Kerbol at a mere few thousand kilometers and get nothing but a sun tan.