Whats the problem with DLCs?

[Brabbit1987]

The thing with doing any additional content is that for the standards of the game, it is definitely not the right time to even think about the subject at all, Downloadable content should be thought about when the game is near release, not when its in the middle of alpha. Secondly I have no problem with DLC myself but when I purchased the game I expected there wouldn't be any additional content like minecraft and if there was, it would be completely free to me because of what is currently stated on the website

* "By ordering KSP now, you get the game in it's current state and all future updates."

Now to me that sounds like I will receive all additional content but that's just how I perceive it.

Well then we also have to ask what classifies as future updates? What is the main game suppose to be, and what is it not suppose to be? This uncertainty causes a major issue now that this whole expansion talk began, and squad decided to give them away for free to those before May. You are right that this is being discussed too early. But what can we do? It's already become an issue because people have questioned those words.

It would be different if there was an exact plan, because then we know exactly what we are getting. But we don't know exactly. The main game could have light speed travel, or that could be an expansion. That leaves out all the people who wanted that, but purchased after May.

In other words they solved one issues but created another big one.

[Brabbit1987]

Sorry for double post but also, when you purchase KSP, it still says the same thing. Unless you read the article, you wouldn't even know about this.

This is all it says when you purchase KSP

"Kerbal Space Program is a game where players create and manage their own space program. Build spacecraft, fly them, and try to help the Kerbals to fulfill their ultimate mission of conquering space.

Remember:

* The game is currently under heavy development and is in Alpha state.

* By ordering KSP now, you get the game in it's current state and all future updates.

* This is a digital product, so it won't be delivered. You have to download the game after your purchase.

* Please note that the Steam version can only be purchased through Steam. For more information, check out this post

Recommended System Specs:

* 2.0Ghz Dual Core CPU or higher (preferably higher)

* 4GB RAM

* 512MB Video Card, Shader Model 3.0

* 1GB Free HD space

* Windows XP, Vista, 7 or 8

* An Intel-based Mac running Mac OS X 10.6 or higher."

Don't you think you this needs to be corrected? You can't assume everyone is going to see that article.

[Specialist290]

Brabbit, you might find this to be a little enlightening:

I, for one, am perfectly comfortable with the arrangement, and not just because I had the foresight to purchase the game before the May cutoff. Rewarding early investors with added benefits is good business, and not just for video games. If I wanted to (which I don't), I could complain that I bought the same game for $23 that someone who paid $5 when 0.14 came out is getting with just as much justification as you are now (that is to say, not much, in my opinion).

Squad has so far delivered exactly what I have expected -- that is to say, a fun, engaging computer simulation of space rocketry. Are there still features that I want to see added in the near future? Well, of course. Would I be disappointed if I did have to pay extra for them? Possibly. Would I actually pay extra if I had to? Depends on the price, and how badly I really wanted the feature. Do I think that's unfair? Not an ounce.

That's the nature of capitalism. Your most vocal criticism is done with your wallet. If you don't like the way a company runs its business, don't buy their products. If enough other people are dissatisfied, the company will get that message loud and clear.

[Brabbit1987]

Brabbit, you might find this to be a little enlightening:

I, for one, am perfectly comfortable with the arrangement, and not just because I had the foresight to purchase the game before the May cutoff. Rewarding early investors with added benefits is good business, and not just for video games. If I wanted to (which I don't), I could complain that I bought the same game for $23 that someone who paid $5 when 0.14 came out is getting with just as much justification as you are now (that is to say, not much, in my opinion).

Squad has so far delivered exactly what I have expected -- that is to say, a fun, engaging computer simulation of space rocketry. Are there still features that I want to see added in the near future? Well, of course. Would I be disappointed if I did have to pay extra for them? Possibly. Would I actually pay extra if I had to? Depends on the price, and how badly I really wanted the feature. Do I think that's unfair? Not an ounce.

That's the nature of capitalism. Your most vocal criticism is done with your wallet. If you don't like the way a company runs its business, don't buy their products. If enough other people are dissatisfied, the company will get that message loud and clear.

The issue with that is price levels. Those who purchased the game before May, lets say they payed $20 for the game. They also get the expansions for free. Now lets say each expansion is $10 and 3 of them came out. Someone who purchased after may pays $23 +$30 for all expansions for a total of $53 more then 2x the price someone a month or so early purchased the game for. That isn't a little reward, but a very very large reward. Heck if we go even earlier then that to someone who payed $10. Later purchasers are paying over 5x more. I feel there is just way to large of a gap there.

Also you are right, if people don't like the business practices they simply won't buy. Remember we are only a month into this, as more people who want to get the game realize this, there will be a much bigger problem. It's not a problem yet because most people here are getting all expansions free. But just wait, people don't like when they pay more and get less. It's very bad business practice, and no matter what "you" think, doesn't change this fact. A lot of people are going to notice this, not just me.

[Specialist290]

Tell you what: If you can use that argument to get us both some Microsoft or Apple stock at the price it was originally sold for with all the benefits we'd get from it now, I'll come around to your way of thinking.

[asmi]

I think the DLCs are supposed to ADD something EXTRA that is not in stock game and was not promised to be. Like DLC that would turn Kerbol system into real Solar system (you know, real-size Earth, Mars, Venus and such). I'd buy such DLC instantly even if it would cost $100.

[B787_300]

I feel there is just way to large of a gap there.

there is but there is the fact that earlier purchasers got less for their money and have been helping to grow the game. I bought the game when it was $15.00 (summer 2012) and since then I have been active on the forum (not that is shows, darn forum crash), giving suggestions and occasionally finding bugs. also Minecraft was the same way, you buy it in Beta, you get all future Minecraft works, you buy after Beta, you have to pay for further works, and look how well Minecraft is still doing. So yes there is a price gap between purchase dates, but remember people who purchased earlier got less for their money at the time and there needs to be a cut off at some point. the Devs decided that it would be May and so it is. and I highly doubt that people complaining about it will get it changed, because otherwise it would never be put into effect.

Also other companies do it too with DLCs, I bought the Civ V Complete Edition, whihc has all the DLCs up to the point that i bought it, now Civ V Brave New World is coming out, and i dont get it for free, if I want it I have to buy it.

[Brabbit1987]

Tell you what: If you can use that argument to get us both some Microsoft or Apple stock at the price it was originally sold for with all the benefits we'd get from it now, I'll come around to your way of thinking.

The issue with that, is that is gambling. When you know how the stock market works when shares are split and such, you know you can't even remotely compare the 2. The reason for prices rising and lowering are much different then a game. However, I can get other companies to do the right thing. Such as if an ISP had a certain offer going around, you can call them up and tell them how it's unfair, and most of the time, they will compensate you. It's called good customer service.

[B787_300]

The issue with that, is that is gambling.

Buying a game in Alpha is gambling too, on the games continued development

[Fel]

If someone should get something for free, then it should be those veterans and that's because they did not give money to Squad for a game but for a POTENCIAL game. KSP is great game right now, but let's be honest in the beginning (like pretty much every game) it wasn't that good. No features, bad design and poor optimization. And those people still paid their money and thanks to them we have an AWESOME game which has not been even completed yet.

Exactly, if we view this like a stock exchange (which I know nothing about ;p), the value of KSP grows as more people invest their money in it; hence driving the stock price (purchase price) up. We are INVESTORS in SQUAD, not only consumers; and to attract more investors, SQUAD lowers the end-game purchase price.

As regards of the expansions of KSP, it must be something big. If they will release parts bundle or just some minor features, there won't be no need to buy them because of mods. Why should anyone pay money for something they can get for free...

This is where things end up getting subjective.

Squad has given us a very powerful (yet undocumented) API. More knowledgeable people with C# have indicated that protections can be violated, hence giving us very strong control over what the game does. They're "Working on Lifesupport" and "Working on Resources" BOTH of which we currently have. (Argue how good Kethane is later, I haven't used it, I only know of its existence)

But the point I wish to make is that there is a MASSIVE slope here (similar to what Harvestor talked about). SQUAD can change the API, improve upon it... but unless they intentionally limit us, we can do nearly anything they can do with the current API. And as the API improves to allow us to do more and more, what SQUAD can do "Uniquely" rapidly diminishes.

[Brabbit1987]

there is but there is the fact that earlier purchasers got less for their money and have been helping to grow the game. I bought the game when it was $15.00 (summer 2012) and since then I have been active on the forum (not that is shows, darn forum crash), giving suggestions and occasionally finding bugs. also Minecraft was the same way, you buy it in Beta, you get all future Minecraft works, you buy after Beta, you have to pay for further works, and look how well Minecraft is still doing. So yes there is a price gap between purchase dates, but remember people who purchased earlier got less for their money at the time and there needs to be a cut off at some point. the Devs decided that it would be May and so it is. and I highly doubt that people complaining about it will get it changed, because otherwise it would never be put into effect.

Also other companies do it too with DLCs, I bought the Civ V Complete Edition, whihc has all the DLCs up to the point that i bought it, now Civ V Brave New World is coming out, and i dont get it for free, if I want it I have to buy it.

Earlier purchasers got less, but in the end they are getting a hell a lot more, for a much much lower price. Again, it's up to squad ... I wont ever be buying another game again from them if this is how they are going to do business. If they like losing money, fine. If they expect me to be the only one who has an issue with this, they got another thing coming. Some may not even buy KSP at all. I at least still purchased it, because I think Squad in the end will do the right thing. If not, I wont be buying the expansion nor any game from them ever again.

[paulram16]

Sorry for double post but also, when you purchase KSP, it still says the same thing. Unless you read the article, you wouldn't even know about this.

This is all it says when you purchase KSP

"Kerbal Space Program is a game where players create and manage their own space program. Build spacecraft, fly them, and try to help the Kerbals to fulfill their ultimate mission of conquering space.

Remember:

* The game is currently under heavy development and is in Alpha state.

* By ordering KSP now, you get the game in it's current state and all future updates.

* This is a digital product, so it won't be delivered. You have to download the game after your purchase.

* Please note that the Steam version can only be purchased through Steam. For more information, check out this post

Recommended System Specs:

* 2.0Ghz Dual Core CPU or higher (preferably higher)

* 4GB RAM

* 512MB Video Card, Shader Model 3.0

* 1GB Free HD space

* Windows XP, Vista, 7 or 8

* An Intel-based Mac running Mac OS X 10.6 or higher."

Don't you think you this needs to be corrected? You can't assume everyone is going to see that article.

I 100% agree, they need to correct that, also for legal reasons they NEED to define exactly what you/I/everyone will receive upon purchasing the game. As I am from the United Kingdom, I believe I have the right to a refund - not that I want one, I love the game to death - and if I was to, I can claim that I haven't received exactly what was described upon purchase which has kinda been left to ones interpretation BECAUSE they haven't defined exactly what I am entitled too, i really think they should seek legal representation to avoid issues in the future.

Edited May 22, 2013 by paulram16

[Specialist290]

The issue with that, is that is gambling. When you know how the stock market works when shares are split and such, you know you can't even remotely compare the 2. The reason for prices rising and lowering are much different then a game. However, I can get other companies to do the right thing. Such as if an ISP had a certain offer going around, you can call them up and tell them how it's unfair, and most of the time, they will compensate you. It's called good customer service.

No, the comparison is the same. There was no guarantee in the early days that KSP would succeed like it has, or even make enough money to adequately convince Squad that further development would have been a worthwhile pursuit. Had they made a little bit less on those initial buy-ins, KSP would be nothing more than an interesting tech demo for the Unity engine, and the Squad developers would still be doing their original day jobs. Those people who bought in early would have gotten nothing more, and we would have gotten nothing at all, since most of us would never have heard of it.

If you really think you're being unfairly treated, you should contact Squad themselves. Maybe you will get special treatment for speaking up. Odds are you won't.

[Brabbit1987]

No, the comparison is the same. There was no guarantee in the early days that KSP would succeed like it has, or even make enough money to adequately convince Squad that further development would have been a worthwhile pursuit. Had they made a little bit less on those initial buy-ins, KSP would be nothing more than an interesting tech demo for the Unity engine, and the Squad developers would still be doing their original day jobs.

If you really think you're being unfairly treated, you should contact Squad themselves. Maybe you will get special treatment for speaking up. Odds are you won't.

Early days? We are talking about last month ... which is the issue. What makes me any less of a contributor then the person a month before me?

Everything you mention still applies. It's still in Alpha and i still payed for an incomplete game, and it's still taking a risk.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Brabbit1987

[Specialist290]

Again, there's no guarantee that they would even continue to work on the game. They could have just decided in light of that kerfluffle to suspend all development on the game, pack up their marbles, and go home -- and they would have been well within their rights to do so.

Granted, that would have been an extreme reaction, but it wouldn't have been an impossible one.

[Scrogdog]

I find this discussion quite interesting on a number of levels. Both as a gamer and as someone that is in sales and marketing.

I also play board games and post on certain forums about my passion. I just purchased a collectors copy of an out of print game that was assembled from more than one copy. I paid $195 plus shipping.

My god, am I crazy? No. Because I will get tremendous VALUE from that purchase. Sure, others would not have paid that price particularly because there are copies in lesser conditions available. To me, it is what hard core gamers call a “grail†game.

I can very easily predict that KSP will become a grail game for me because it’s darn close already. Give me features and take my money! PLEASE!

Given that, I could really not care less about who paid what! What matters is, do *I* perceive value in what is being sold.

There is also a new phenomenon out there called kickstarter. Here one PRE-PAYS for something that may not as yet exist! Not even alpha stage. Why? Because you BELIEVE. You see great potential. You are willing to take risks to get whatever is being kickstarted! If the thing is good and gets produced, everyone else who climbed aboard after the risk phase pays more.

This conversation is also spookily close to folks arguing about the price of apps. Because it seems that many don’t take gameplay or dev time in to account, or that it might actually be a really cool game. All they know is that NO OTHER app charges so much!

I would be sorry to hear that someone thinks they are not being treated fairly. I’ve missed many sales in my life but still do business at the regular price with these entities. I don’t think it’s their fault that I missed the sale. And I still want their products.

In the end, judge the game on the joy it brings you and what you think that joy is worth to you. Forget all else. If you judge it to be worthless because you paid more than someone else, you are thinking about it wrong in my humble opinion.

Carry on!

Edited May 22, 2013 by Scrogdog

[Specialist290]

<Everything he just said>

This man speaks true wisdom.

[Brabbit1987]

Again, there's no guarantee that they would even continue to work on the game. They could have just decided in light of that kerfluffle to suspend all development on the game, pack up their marbles, and go home -- and they would have been well within their rights to do so.

Granted, that would have been an extreme reaction, but it wouldn't have been an impossible one.

And that could very well still happen, though unlikely. My point is, it is unfair no matter how you look at this. I really don't think anyone was suppose to get free expansions at all. So it isn't like it was part of their plans. But still, I am no less a contributor then the person who purchased a month before myself. I don't know what the game will look like when it is finished, so I am still taking a gamble here. Just as much as anyone else here.

[asmi]

But the point I wish to make is that there is a MASSIVE slope here (similar to what Harvestor talked about). SQUAD can change the API, improve upon it... but unless they intentionally limit us, we can do nearly anything they can do with the current API. And as the API improves to allow us to do more and more, what SQUAD can do "Uniquely" rapidly diminishes.

And it's because of that API's existence coupled with presence of many talented modders out here, KSP retains players between updates, because, let's face it - right now stock game is about 20-30% of what is possible with mods. And I think Squad shall encourage and support modders to the best they could, as mods play a critical role of maintaining interest to the game while devs are working on next updates.

[Brabbit1987]

I find this discussion quite interesting on a number of levels. Both as a gamer and as someone that is in sales and marketing.

I also play board games and post on certain forums about my passion. I just purchased a collectors copy of an out of print game that was assembled from more than one copy. I paid $195 plus shipping.

My god, am I crazy? No. Because I will get tremendous VALUE from that purchase. Sure, others would not have paid that price particularly because there are copies in lesser conditions available. To me, it is what hard core gamers call a “grail†game.

I can very easily predict that KSP will become a grail game for me because it’s darn close already. Give me features and take my money! PLEASE!

Given that, I could really care less who paid what! What matters is, do *I* perceive value in what is being sold.

There is also a new phenomenon out there called kickstarter. Here one PRE-PAYS for something that may not as yet exist! Not even alpha stage. Why? Because you BELIEVE. You see great potential. You are willing to take risks to get whatever is being kickstarted! If the thing is good and gets produced, everyone else who climbed aboard after the risk phase pays more.

This conversation is also spookily close to folks arguing about the price of apps. Because it seems that many don’t take gameplay or dev time in to account, or that it might actually be a really cool game. All they know is that NO OTHER app charges so much!

I would be sorry to hear that someone thinks they are not being treated fairly. I’ve missed many sales in my life but still do business at the regular price with these entities. I don’t think it’s their fault that I missed the sale. And I still want their products.

In the end, judge the game on the joy it brings you and what you think that joy is worth to you. Forget all else. If you judge it to be worthless because you paid more than someone else, you are thinking about it wrong in my humble opinion.

Carry on!

The problem is the game is not complete. I am expecting certain features. If those certain features are not in the main game and i have to pay more .. .how happy do you think I will be?

As for kickstarter ... you get more .. the more you pay. They have different tiers to choose from. You get extras the "MORE" you pay. This is not the case here.

[whatisthisidonteven]

You want to give more money to Squad? Buy more copies of the game and give them to friends.

[paulram16]

Regardless of how everyone feels about it, Squad is in a rough spot here. Myself (and many other people here) purchased the game in early Alpha, way before Steam Early Access, docking, maneuver nodes, and the resources system (remember when all you had was the green bar in the cluttered staging stack?). Back then, the terms that you purchased the game under promised that once you bought the game, you had it. All of it. Forever. That's a legal agreement, and if Squad had backtracked and tried to charge those people for the new content Squad could very likely be facing a class-action lawsuit. Obviously the reaction of the userbase was quite negative as well, which was no doubt another a strong incentive to backtrack the way they did.

However, it's not realistic to expect a company to take a one-time fee for a product that they continually develop. Regardless of how you might personally feel, if everyone got every update for free forever Squad would go bankrupt. That's how business works. So they can't charge everybody, and they can't charge nobody. You see the situation they're in.

Ok I can give you one incredible example here of a company which took a one time fee for a game which grew from Alpha and now they are a multi-million pound company... Minecraft. Mojang continually develop the game even though it has officially been released and still do not request users to pay more for expansions, the only reason a company does that is for greed, not to continue the development of a game but pure greed. Notch expanded this game and because of his lack of selfishness he has made a game global.

[Specialist290]

And my point is that, however unfair you may perceive it, Squad is still well within their rights to pursue the course of action that they did.

However, since I'm getting a bit too emotionally invested in this discussion, I think I'll bow out for the moment before I end up doing something silly to prove a point.

EDIT: Paulram: You say that like greed is a bad thing.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Specialist290

[Brabbit1987]

Ok I can give you one incredible example here of a company which took a one time fee for a game which grew from Alpha and now they are a multi-million pound company... Minecraft. Mojang continually develop the game even though it has officially been released and still do not request users to pay more for expansions, the only reason a company does that is for greed, not to continue the development of a game but pure greed. Notch expanded this game and because of his lack of selfishness he has made a game global.

Thank you, this is exactly what I mean. I feel, ok early purchaser got their game cheaper.. I can deal with that. It's the benefit of purchasing early. But with the Expansions on top of that >.> Are you joking!? Here I am paying more .. and I am getting far far less, which should never be the case. At least not this much.

And my point is that, however unfair you may perceive it, Squad is still well within their rights to pursue the course of action that they did.

However, since I'm getting a bit too emotionally invested in this discussion, I think I'll bow out for the moment before I end up doing something silly to prove a point.

Yes it is with in their right to do this. But how many people are going to like it is the main question that needs to be asked. When you have customers, you need to be fair. It's not like this is something free. Every single one of us payed, some of us payed more.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Brabbit1987

[Scrogdog]

The problem is the game is not complete. I am expecting certain features. If those certain features are not in the main game and i have to pay more .. .how happy do you think I will be?

As for kickstarter ... you get more .. the more you pay. They have different tiers to choose from. You get extras the "MORE" you pay. This is not the case here.

I suggest you go to Board Game Geek to see the fate of a kickstarted game called Up Front. No one is going to receive what they bought OR any bonus! NOTHING! In fact, kickstarter failures are going to become a major legal issue soon, at least potentially.

Ok, so if you do not feel the value in the experience, don't buy.

So, if that's your choice, what are you still doing here? Do you expect to convince the rest of us that we've been ripped off? What's the end game you are seeking?