Unplayable after FAR

[hansman1982]

Ok, I recently downloaded the Ferram mod and my rockets are not flyable. Either there is not enough delta V to achieve orbit or the careen(sp?) out of control. Am I doing something wrong?

[hansman1982]

Ok, after more testing...the game is thoroughly unplayable at this point...

[Awaras]

I have found that it is easier to get to orbit with FAR than without it. Some redesign of your rockets might be necessarry. Can you post a screenshot of the rocket that is giving you trouble?

[hansman1982]

And previous successful launch rockets are failing...

[Awaras]

First, have you made your rockets aerodynamic? You need to add nose cones on top of EVERYTHING or you will have trouble.

[lyndonguitar]

What exactly does FAR do?

[Awaras]

It adds improved aerodynamics and drag to the game, so you actually have to add nose cones to your rockets to reduce drag. Also, aircraft flight is much more realistic.

[NeoMorph]

Yeah,... you have to take into account drag from EVERYTHING.

[IvanTehFennec]

If it looks lopsided and crazy, it probably won't work. Make it more like real rockets, streamlined and more weight down low.

[SalmonellaDingDong]

I installed FAR and it made things easier. You are doing something wrong.

[hansman1982]

It's rockets that previously had no problem reaching orbit and I'm launching with MechJeb.

[ComradeGoat]

It's rockets that previously had no problem reaching orbit and I'm launching with MechJeb.

Can we see pictures of the rockets?

[gompasta]

Then obviously that rocket is not aerodynamic enough now that proper drag is introduced. Post a screenshot of it.

[Daze]

I installed FAR and it made things easier. You are doing something wrong.

Exactly

[Frostiken]

I used FAR for a little bit but got rid of it because of problems like the OP said.

As an example, the Zenith III (http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/24787-0-19-1-Zenith-rocket-family).

The rocket is uncontrollable. When doing the gravity turn, it just starts spinning wildly out of control, flipping end over end. It's ridiculous. I've run into many such instances of oddity and decided since I don't use spaceplanes much I'd just remove it for now. Not worth the trouble.

[Nibb31]

Same here, I couldn't get aerodynamic rockets to work with MechJeb, even after tinkering with the flight profile curve. I suspect that there is an incompatibility between MJ assumptions and the new aerodynamic model.

[SecondGuessing]

Can you do it manually? Because I suspect it's mechJeb that's the problem (on that point: why would you use mechJeb to launch?).

[maackey]

Your rockets are probably tipping over because they are turning too fast. The engine is pushing them up rather quickly, and when they turn over the large side profile of the rocket creates a lot of drag which pushes it down and your rocket starts tumbling out of control. In real life rockets start their gravity turn much sooner than 10km up, and have a very gradual turn. If you're using MechJeb, try setting the starting turn height to 1km, and the curve to 100%. Adding some tailfins near the bottom certainly doesn't hurt either, but the biggest thing is not turning over too quickly.

These are my lifter rockets using FAR: http://imgur.com/a/VEjQq (mixed up the small one with large payload with medium sized one... oh well)

The large one can lift 70 tons into 100km orbit easily. The design is pretty simple: 3 stages to orbit. First stage fires all engines, which are cross-fed to the center (not asparagus staging, but I think it looks cooler when they all come off at once). Without FAR I usually started turning over just as these were dropped, but with FAR you should already have made some progress towards that 45 degree incline by the time the boosters run out of juice. There are sepratrons to clear away the boosters for the second stage, and they work fine even when tipped over. The second stage continues lifting the payload almost all the way to a circular orbit. In some cases it does *too* well and gets all the way into orbit -- I typically then restart the flight because second stage is not equipped to de-orbit itself and I try to avoid space debris. The third stage pops the fairings once above 70 km, and finishes pushing the payload to orbit, and then can either de-orbit, drive the payload to the space station, or sometimes it has enough dv to get a collision course to the mun/minmus.

Anyway, FAR makes rockets much easier than stock IMO, but I've always favored aerodynamic and aesthetic designs over 100% functional ones. I can even afford putting extra "dead weight" for redundant systems and safety margins. Planes are also so much better, and I can actually apply the cool aerodynamic principles my dad is always blabbering on about

[hansman1982]

I will get screenshots later when I get back to the game.

As to why I use mech jeb...it's easier (and I'm guessing more realistic to actual launches (granted, I'm sure in real life the rocket scientists do a lot more work before the launch in programming the launch)). This way I can set my launch up and fire away which is nice because my computer is fairly laggy which can be a problem at times with a manual launch.

[Holo]

Yeah to maakey's suggestion. Also, your normal asparagus-wider-than-tall rockets doesn't work nicely with FAR.

[Eric S]

maakey's pointing you in the right direction. Basically, if your center of drag is above your center of mass, as is the case with many, if not most asparagus designs, then turning more than a few degrees off of prograde will cause the ship to become uncontrollable because it will be as if you had a parachute attached to the front of the rocket. You can address this two ways, and you should address it both ways.

First, you need to make sure your craft doesn't have a huge amount of drag at the top of it. Nose cones on everything, and fairings around anything that isn't aerodynamic.

Second, you need to make gradual gravity turns, not the "boost to 10K and then snap turn to 45 degrees" that are so common in stock KSP launches. The farther away from prograde your rocket is pointing, the more torque the offcenter drag will cause. I remember somewhere before the great forum oops that the FAR dev said that you shouldn't be farther than five degrees away from prograde during your launch. With enough control, I could manage 10 degrees, but anything more than that, while it could be done, wasn't practical as the ship started becoming more about controlling the craft than getting anything to orbit.

Asparagus staging works fine in FAR, though it's less needed as realistic aerodynamics actually reduces the amount of delta-V you need to get into orbit. If your center stack doesn't have much mass above the height of the radial stacks, you'll need to follow the prograde closely.

Done right (and this means tweaking mechjebs ascent profile if you're using mechjeb), you can even get it to launch asparagus staged rockets.

[hansman1982]

Ya, my rockets don't look much different than the screenshots above. I just uninstalled and reinstalled the game. Also, using the jsgme program to install the mods this time. We will see how that looks.

[hansman1982]

Thanks for the notes. It's frustrating because it usually happens shortly after liftoff and sometimes before 1 KM. I am working on it, trying to tweak the design.

It's so frustrating. Before I downloaded the FAR mod, getting to orbit wasn't a challenge (generally it was getting to orbit with enough remaining fuel to go elsewhere). Now, it's damn near impossible.

[hansman1982]

What am I doing wrong?

[Daze]

I think the main problem is because the rocket is too much wider than tall...