Wry observation

[AmpsterMan]

The general consensus opinion on the matter is that we fans fall into two neat categories: Flyers and Builders.

The theory is that those who enjoy Building are more into building the most aesthetic/efficient/crazy contraption and not care neseseraly about flying them. MechJeb is for them.

Flyers on the other hand prefer to do crazy missions and like to test their mettle against physics. For these, MechJeb is nothing short of Mortal Sin.

At least, the above is the theory.

In practice I think it is dumb to categorize people in such narrow ways. Whereas it is true that there are two general things to do in the game, I think most people like to do both. The reason I think Mechjeb brings out such passion from both camps is because it CAN make a portion of the game significantly easier. Whether this is a good thing is a matter of opinion.

Furthermore, the argument is even more complicated because HarvesteR has said that he doesn't want a feature which executes things automatically for you. This doesn't invalidate all of MechJeb's functions however. On the other side you have the fact that most operations a spacecraft undergoes are completely automated giving greater weight to the automated camp.

In the end it is a discussion that can very easily turn southward because of the fact that it is an opinion and because of the prevalence of hyperbole on the internet.

[Mishkin_007]

IRL the potential problems are much higher, as are the potential losses. I'm not denigrating mechjeb users, but this is a lame excuse. Mechjeb doesn't add any realism to the game, it simply smooths off some of the tedium found when you launch your hundredth rocket. That's perfectly fine, but don't pretend that using mechjeb makes your space program more realistic than not using it would.

Well, another 'excuse' I have is that Scott Manley likes and uses MJ.

If it's good for him, it's good for me.

[DerekL1963]

Oh dear. This was never meant to be a yes v no thread

You've noted the divide, but not noted the results that divide virtually always produce? I find that hard to believe.

[SecondGuessing]

Well, another 'excuse' I have is that Scott Manley likes and uses MJ.

If it's good for him, it's good for me.

But you don't need an excuse. If anyone says 'ermergerd mechjeb is cheating u noob' just tell them to put the dummy back in their mouth and let people play things how they want.

[Guest]

-SNIP-

That's perfectly fine, but don't pretend that using mechjeb makes your space program more realistic than not using it would.

I completely agree with your line of reasoning here. It's my belief that using MJ doesn't make my space programme any less realistic. A small point, but there is a distinction.

Let's face it, a virtualised computer running a virtual spacecraft on a simulated flight is about as unrealistic as you can get.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Guest

[SecondGuessing]

I completely agree with your line of reasoning here. It's my belief that using MJ doesn't make my space programme any less realistic. A small point, but there is a distinction.

Certainly. I think arguing realism in a game where you can get into orbit using 4000d/V is rather pointless. We don't want realism in KSP, we want a mild realism, tempered with explosions.

[Sir Nahme]

I don't use it because I enjoy flying. I don't care if other people do

[Epic DaVinci]

I use it and i like it.

For me, the game is not about the actual flying, but about the design. If you do a bad job designing a craft, then even Mechjeb wont be able to control it.

You don't see real life Astronauts manually flying the ships they travel in do you? everything is automated (to a certain extent)

[Scottiths]

Try having a 1 hour burn with an Ion engine manually... I let mech jeb do it so I can do other things like read forums. There is no reason I need to sit there and make sure it does not pitch off of the node. It would be just mind numbingly boring.

Also, some launches are so laggy that it sometimes takes 10 minutes to get to orbit. Why do I need to do it myself if I have already launched that same thing dozens of times? Mech jeb can ease tedium. People who don't use it just don't care that they are sitting there watching a slideshow for 10 minutes for no real gain.

[Hello moto]

Given the choice I wouldn't take it away, but to use something like that is the equivalent of having a mod for pokemon battles that play through and win you all the battles while you go do other stuff. I will never understand how some people would want their games played for them :S

[Brabbit1987]

The funny thing is, I like building, and piloting, and I still think mechjeb is perfectly fine. I spend most of my time in VAB, but I have to make the most efficient rocket for every job I do. I don't like wasting fuel, I also hate having to restart missions. I rather be able to do it, the first time. I feel more like I am cheating if I have to hit esc and click end flight or restart then using mechjeb. I do most of my piloting manual, but mechjeb provides fantastic information a pilot would need. Also even if you are a pilot, there are just some jobs that are tedious.

Mechjeb is a tool even I would recommend to the best of pilots. I put it on everything I build because it's better to be there simply to be there. To many times you can find yourself needing it in situations you never would think of XD.

[Reavermyst]

honestly there is no right way to argue using Mech-jeb or assistance mods. If you're for it, you're using it for information or to make the game less tedious. If you're against it, you see it as cheating. The fact of the matter is, both sides are right simply because it's a sandbox game. Sandbox games thrive on freedom of choice. If using mods makes your experience better, go for it! Same if you don't care for mods.

Play the game however you desire. Touch down on every planet, or just the Mun. build rockets that are meant to kill kerbals more than go to space. Fire mock missiles at the Mun! How you play is ultimately up to you.

[air805ronin]

I've been playing about a year now, and I have to say this about the endless Mechjeb threads. It seems to me the only reason to even ask this question is for validation of your decision.

Using mechjeb, or not, is a personal decision. Its no one's business whether someone uses it.

I for one hope there will be fewer and fewer of these threads because they are incredibly pointless. The same arguments are used in every thread.

1. Real men fly their own rockets

2. Real astronaughts have autopilots.

3. Argument C

4. People who use mechjeb are nazis.

5. People who don't want me using mehjeb are nazis.

And thus its like every other forum thread on the internet.

Also, I'm not sure it is a truly "wry observation" if you declare it yourself...

[Daze]

I use and don't use it, sometimes i want to do ALL by myself and sometimes i want to make pilot the ship by MJ

[CoriW]

So uhm... I haven't read all 4 pages, but for anybody who is anti-mechjeb, I'm just going to quote something I said a little while ago in a different thread...

MechJeb in my experience seems to be what a lot of people argue about when it comes to mods vs anti-mods.

But really, and it has been said before but I feel like I really need to stress this very important piece of information, it all comes down to the person using MechJeb. I've seen four different groups of people that use MechJeb, and I will list them below.

1) "DO EVERYTHING!" (So this one of course is what a lot of people (note: not all) who don't use mods simply assume has happened if somebody has MechJeb, which is often not the case.)

2) "Show me how it's done!" (This group of people will usually first get MechJeb to complete tasks for them, while they watch and take mental notes on how MechJeb does it (Sort of like a visual tutorial), then will later turn off MechJeb and try it for themselves.)

3) "I've done it before, and I know I can do it manually, so do it for me from now on." (This is the group of people that prove to themselves they can in fact achieve certain things, and once they know they can, don't see much point in doing it repeatedly so they get MechJeb to do those things for them.)

4) "I just want all the information on my screen, and nothing else." (This group doesn't really want the autopilot part of MechJeb, they just want all the readouts so they don't have to keep switching between screens, holding protractors up to their screen, and doing extensive calculations mid-flight.)

Now usually people move in between these groups, but these do seem to be the primary 4 ways people will use MechJeb.

Me personally, I'm in groups 3 and 4, but primarily 4, I use MechJeb mostly for the informational readouts that you can get yourself, whether it be from the map view, holding a protractor to your screen, or scrambling to do a calculation mid-flight, and in that respect, any achievement is still MY achievement, there was no computer helping me through everything, but instead just a box on my screen to tell me the information that I wanted to know on the fly as I needed it. As for why I say I'm in group 3, this is because I will often use MechJeb to set down a maneuver node for interplanetary burns or launch a vessel into a parking orbit around Kerbin for me, but that is hardly cheating. Both I know I can do myself, but ask MechJeb to do because it's simply a tedious task.

So with that being said, I know that when a lot of people (Primarily from groups 3, 4, possibly even 2) hear somebody say, "Oh they had MechJeb, that's not an Achievement", they usually feel some bit of hurt because they know that they did achieve something for themselves whether it be successfully docking with a ship manually after learning how from watching MechJeb or simply using MechJeb for it's informational readouts while they performed a manual maneuver.

All in all, my point is...

I am not saying that everyone should use MechJeb, but I'm also saying that just because someone uses MechJeb does not mean that they necessarily cheat either. So please, to everybody, the next time you see somebody using MechJeb, please don't just assume that they're not putting in any effort, instead try to see how they used MechJeb if possible, and make your assumption based off of that rather than just blanketing MechJeb users as cheaters or people who put in little to no effort.

[Sabor]

I've only been a member of the forum for a few days but I am already getting a sense there is a distinct splitting of opinions regarding the use of Mech Jeb. Personally I have found that the very basics - launch, achieving orbit, circularising and even extending the orbit to allow passage to the Mun or Minmus to be quite straight forward, and am struggling to imagine that you would need to use an autopilot to manage even these simple tasks. I mean, c'mon guys, it's not rocket science.

Oh, hang on a minute!

Mechjeb also allows for other things. I use the Autoland's 'predicted landing point' feature more than anything to make sure I'm going to be where I want to be when I come in to land at KSC before I even start losing altitude from de-orbiting. The Ascent Autopilot is also great to sort of standardize your flights, and test your designs when you do tweak after tweak, to easily see what differences and improvements you've made. There's also the Smart Ass which is invaluable. Try playing Orbiter without using KillRot/Prograde/RetroGrade holds.

It's just an optional tool/aid some people love and some don't want to use. Kerbal and the community made content is flexible enough that anyone can play KSP however they wish, and that's a good thing, not bad

[lyndonguitar]

Mechjeb is useful, using it doesn't make you a noob pilot, and not using it doesn't make you a "pro" pilot either.

and am struggling to imagine that you would need to use an autopilot to manage even these simple tasks.

I am also struggling why people would need automated laundry machines, dishwashers, calculators, etc, etc to even do simple tasks!!!

LOL, but seriously, After playing for awhile now(250+ hours already), I am already good launching, circular orbits, hohmann transfer, landing, docking, hell, I even burn straight to the mun now, no more achieving circular orbit first, I just wait for the optimal angle(launch window) and I just go from the launchpad directly to mun. one manuever to the mun

After playing for awhile these things get so tedious to do, even for a fun video game like KSP, for example I just completed my 500+ parts space station, It required me to do 18 successful launches, rendenzvous, and docking. I can't imagine me doing it manually 18 times again and again, not even counting the failures. not that I can't do it, but its very, very, repetitive to enjoy doing.

So I use mechjeb, set up the parameters, launch, and drink a coffee, go back and see your ship nicely in orbit. I play KSP to manage my own Space Program anyway, not be a pilot.

Fun Fact: Real astronauts have tools(yeah, autopilot too!) similar to Mechjeb.

[CalculusWarrior]

Try having a 1 hour burn with an Ion engine manually... I let mech jeb do it so I can do other things like read forums. There is no reason I need to sit there and make sure it does not pitch off of the node. It would be just mind numbingly boring.

Also, some launches are so laggy that it sometimes takes 10 minutes to get to orbit. Why do I need to do it myself if I have already launched that same thing dozens of times? Mech jeb can ease tedium. People who don't use it just don't care that they are sitting there watching a slideshow for 10 minutes for no real gain.

I agree with you there. However, for long burns, I put the game into 4x physical timewarp and just went away and did something else after setting a timer. I don't often include Mechjeb on my designs anymore, only putting it down when I'm going to need it for some purpose (like the Translatron for a skycrane).

I'm also known to use the Ascent Guidance for especially laggy rockets too--especially my MapSat ones which seem to lag between 10 and 40km on the way up.

Point is, using Mechjeb doesn't automatically make you a noob, nor does it mean you can't perform landings normally, despite what many of it's critics may say.

[Specialist290]

Personally, I think using manufactured means such as rockets and airfoils to propel you are cheating, and that real pilots claw their way through the skies with their bare hands and sheer force of personality.

Of course, I'm well aware that a lot of people feel otherwise.

Tongue is firmly in cheek on this one.

[rakutenshi]

Specialist may claw his way to space, but my preferred method is to piss the surface off and get thrown into orbit. Much less work on my part.

[viktorserecros]

I've been using mechjeb as a sort of tutorial video that uses MY craft, not somebody else's. I went through a phase when gravity turns resulted in explosions. Mechjeb pointed out that I just couldn't get my rocket designs right. I just landed on Duna using mechjeb just to monitor dv usage.

I know there are other mods that provide the same info, but I like the capability of quick-saving and switching to "tutorial" mode.

[Flixxbeatz]

*grabs popcorn and watches from a distance*

[KerbActual]

Not that I need to defend using or not using MJ, but for me it's a learning tool.

Here's some of the questions it has answered.

Where's the window for the planetary transfer?

What IS a Hoffman transfer?

How do I Hoffman transfer?

Can this thing even get into orbit?

How do I judge where I'm going to land?

How do you change the orbit from a equatorial one to a polar one?

I can do most of these things myself now. It's been a great learning tool. Do I prefer to do them myself? Sometimes, and sometimes I don't. I really don't see what this big deal is about anti-mechjeb "purists". Really, there's less conflict here than the dV required to escape Minmus orbit. Moving on.

[rosenkranz]

Really, it depends on what stage of the game you prefer to play at.

The game will likely start with just the bare necessities and be frought with issues as most things will have to be done manually.

As the game progresses and new tech is developed and new skills are trained, I'm sure some features of mechjeb will creep in along with more advanced parts. Some may not even be done by parts on the ship but by the kerbal pilots on board.

I'm sure late game (end game?) features will include most if not all of mechjeb functionality plus a slew of more advanced parts and what not.

Edit: forgot to include my preference. I like the mid game.

Edited May 17, 2013 by rosenkranz

[brusura]

I like all the extra information mj give me so I do not have to over my mouse over some moving pixels while manuvering, also all the basic direction like prograde normal etc and position relative to target