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[0.90] Procedural Dynamics - Procedural Wing 0.9.3 Dec 24

DYJ

By DYJ
in KSP1 Mod Releases

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JonBar

JonBar

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Yea, much appreciation to the Modders out there that update quickly. Sucks having to wait, as I was going to previously, but couldn't make myself.

Much appreciation to all Modders in general, don't want anyone to feel left out, they all do good work.

Edited by JonBar
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Konnor

Konnor

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Updated so that it probably works with latest FAR and latest KSP update.

I remember seeing these new wings here http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/29862?p=934889&viewfull=1#post934889

One thing eluded me back then: how do you assign these control surfaces an axis to respond to?

RKorq1V.jpg

I mean, there are no tweakables for pitch/yaw/roll; is this even possible?

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Master Tao

Master Tao

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I remember seeing these new wings here http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/29862?p=934889&viewfull=1#post934889

One thing eluded me back then: how do you assign these control surfaces an axis to respond to?

http://i.imgur.com/RKorq1V.jpg

I mean, there are no tweakables for pitch/yaw/roll; is this even possible?

That's not a control surface, that's a wing.

One of the control surfaces is in the first column, third row. I'm not sure of the icon for the other, but I think it's third column, second row.

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Konnor

Konnor

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@Master Tao: I know it is a wing, but for some reason I thought of it as of a wing with integrated control surface, much like B9 winglets but procedural.

Seems not the case though, it actually has a togglable slot for some other control surface.

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Guest

Guest

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Will you be updating the Mark4 with textures soon? Also, could you add a version with an optional (empty by default) LFO tank to the wings? That would allow planes to carry fuel in wings, like IRL. Ideally, it'd play nice with RealFuels.

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JeffreyCor

JeffreyCor

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Had problem with control surface also. Would not attach to wing and when left unattached to move things for a better angle, selecting the control services selected the ship even though they wearn't near each other. Tested with .24 x86 (finding x64 far too unstable currently :( )

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Master Tao

Master Tao

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@Master Tao: I know it is a wing, but for some reason I thought of it as of a wing with integrated control surface, much like B9 winglets but procedural.

Seems not the case though, it actually has a togglable slot for some other control surface.

That wing would look good with integrated control surfaces. I seem to remember that style of wing somewhat breaks FAR, though. Maybe it could work with a truncated wing with fitted control surfaces and structural pieces. How DYJ plans to have a toggle slot in a procedural wing is beyond me. I thought concave shapes were difficult to begin with.

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NathanKell

NathanKell

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Had problem with control surface also. Would not attach to wing and when left unattached to move things for a better angle, selecting the control services selected the ship even though they wearn't near each other. Tested with .24 x86 (finding x64 far too unstable currently :( )

This is a sign that tree order got bugged. It seems to happen mostly with pwings, but occassionally other mods. However, we desperately, desperately need info: the output log from after causing the problem, and reproduction steps.

Cause the problem. Quit KSP (if it hasn't crashed). Upload your output log (NOT ksp.log) to dropbox or something.

Windows: KSP_win\KSP_Data\output_log.txt

Mac OSX: Open Console, on the left side of the window there is a menu that says 'files'. Scroll down the list and find the Unity drop down, under Unity there will be Player.log Aka Files>~/Library/Logs>Unity>Player.log

Linux: ~/.config/unity3d/Squad/Kerbal\ Space\ Program/Player.log

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JeffreyCor

JeffreyCor

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Gladly! With such a weird problem I had no idea what you might need. I duplicated the problem and got a log from it. Could there be changes in the way MM works that could cause this? I used that for moving them to a different unlock in the tree in .23.5 without problem so didn't think it would cause a problem here.

I was able to try this in both 32 and 64 bit (2 days but FINALLY got 64 bit working working :) ) with the same problem.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xww79skum3ac3n9/output_log.txt

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Northstar1989

Northstar1989

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Any word on how the financial costs of procedural wings parts are adjusted in proportion with wing size/shape/thickness?

I would very much like to eventually integrate this into my new career save (I'm trying to go mod-light, but the stock wings are one thing I simply cannot stand), having played with it extensively in 0.23.5, but one obvious concern I can foresee is the mod breaking the financial balance/realism for wing parts...

Regards,

Northstar

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rynak

rynak

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I think he responded to that earlier - or maybe that was in the fairing thread. Either the pwing or the pfairing dev asked squad to support this during the experimentals. It didn't happen - at least this time.

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Northstar1989

Northstar1989

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Also, any word on THIS bug?

Having issues with changing the root and tip thickness. When using symmetry it doesn't mirror the root and tip thickness properly, and instead does the thickness for both sides the same, pictured below. Any thoughts on this? It seems all other wing parts have proper symmetry, but the control surfaces, as clearly shown do not.

http://i.imgur.com/vOLqMFd.jpg

I was experiencing that in 0.23.5 as well, and it is clearly a game-breaker for using any of this mod's control surfaces (I also had problems with the wing parameters only adjusting on one side, but that can usually be fixed by removing/re-attaching with symmetry mode). Though I guess I could always just manually delete the files for the control surfaces from the mod folder (it's a sub-optimal solution, but I have no reason to keep a broken part installed and using memory) and stick with stock control surfaces (B9 not yet being updated) for the time being...

Regards,

Northstar

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rynak

rynak

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Well, it's aesthetically annoying, but doesn't really affect gamemechanics.... the bug that the center of lift for some people - including me in 0.32.5 - ignores pwings, is something i'd consider much more severe. After all, its kinda hard to design a well behaving airplane, if the CoL marker is completely wrong.

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Hodo

Hodo

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Well, it's aesthetically annoying, but doesn't really affect gamemechanics.... the bug that the center of lift for some people - including me in 0.32.5 - ignores pwings, is something i'd consider much more severe. After all, its kinda hard to design a well behaving airplane, if the CoL marker is completely wrong.

Two questions.

1- Are you using FAR?

2- How is it wrong?

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Northstar1989

Northstar1989

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Posted (edited)
Two questions.

1- Are you using FAR?

2- How is it wrong?

I was NOT using FAR back when I got the control surface bug in 0.23.5 (in version 0.7, as I said, I don't currently have Procedural Dynamics installed in 0.24). I am now- but I don't have Procedural Dynamics installed.

It's a LOT MORE than "aesthetically annoying". If the control surfaces aren't mirrored properly, they cause the vessel to move in unexpected directions when activated (they throw off the center of lift/drag, and even slightly skew the Center of Mass). Try it for yourself with control surfaces with a very large change in thickness over their length (to exasperate the effects of the bug) if you don't believe me...

Regards,

Northstar

Edited by Northstar1989
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Hodo

Hodo

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I was NOT using FAR back when I got the control surface bug in 0.23.5 (in version 0.7, as I said, I don't currently have Procedural Dynamics installed in 0.24). I am now- but I don't have Procedural Dynamics installed.

It's a LOT MORE than "aesthetically annoying". If the control surfaces aren't mirrored properly, they cause the vessel to move in unexpected directions when activated (they throw off the center of lift/drag, and even slightly skew the Center of Mass). Try it for yourself with control surfaces with a very large change in thickness over their length (to exasperate the effects of the bug) if you don't believe me...

Regards,

Northstar

Oh I see what you are talking about. And no I still have not experienced exactly what you are saying, I may just be adjusting to it automatically and fixing it manually. But I don't often have really thick wings, it is rare they go over 2.0 in thickness. Most of the time I start my wings at .2 and add struts and such then expand the thickness back out to where I want it. I also turn off the auto-snap feature when I attach control surfaces, and I make sure the wings are exactly where I want them and where they need to be before I attach them. This way I shouldn't have to move them and mess up the control surface placement.

Lastly most of my craft don't have massive control surfaces unless they are massive aircraft.

So I think I am a bit hazy over the overall problem you are having other than the CoL moving around... that is annoying but I figured it was a FAR thing and just adapted and overcame the issue.

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rynak

rynak

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I was neither using FAR nor SDF back then (0.32.5) - plain stock aerodynamic model. I just checked - it still happens in 0.40 here.

Steps:

1. New sandbox game

2. Go to SPH

3. Use stock inline MK1 cockpit (the one called MK2) - but really, it shouldn't matter which one you pick

4. Add 5m fuel tank

5. Select normal pwing... move it along the fuselage - CoL updates and shows correctly.

6. Click to attach the part - CoL returns to original position - as if the wing doesn't exist.

Basically, i only ever get to see CoL for the wing i'm currently attaching, but cannot see CoL for those already attached.

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rynak

rynak

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It's a LOT MORE than "aesthetically annoying". If the control surfaces aren't mirrored properly, they cause the vessel to move in unexpected directions when activated (they throw off the center of lift/drag, and even slightly skew the Center of Mass). Try it for yourself with control surfaces with a very large change in thickness over their length (to exasperate the effects of the bug) if you don't believe me...

Erm, according to the dev, the thickness doesn't have any effect on aerodynamics at all - it's just fluff... so, if you're seeing actual gameplay consequences, then something else than just visual glitches should be happening? Do the control surfaces in your case collide wrongly or something like that?

Edited by rynak
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Northstar1989

Northstar1989

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Erm, according to the dev, the thickness doesn't have any effect on aerodynamics at all - it's just fluff...

Where do you see that? Because in real life thickness, and root-to-tip thickness ratio both affect the aerodynamic properties of a wing...

I was of the understanding that this mod actually used some FAR-like math to internally determine the properties of wings and control surfaces based on size/shape (in fact, I believe the dev even said it somewhere). For instance, larger wings produce relatively more lift for their mass. If so, then anything that causes asymmetry on control surface thickness causes asymmetry in control surface lift/drag characteristics.

so, if you're seeing actual gameplay consequences, then something else than just visual glitches should be happening? Do the control surfaces in your case collide wrongly or something like that?

There may have been some collision issues going on with the rest of the wing- as the control surface was clipping into it due to its improper thickness (like in the image below). But there was definitely something going on with control actuation as well- when I disabled the glitched control surfaces, my planes were capable of flying with just SAS and non-procedural control surfaces elsewhere- but when I activated those control surfaces, I would get unexplained yaw/roll that I could only reasonably attribute to the asymmetry of the control surfaces...

Now what about the balance of this mod with Budgets in 0.24? Nobody's answered my inquiry about that yet...

Regards,

Northstar

P.S. Please look at the picture from the post I quote (note this is NOT my own plane- and I didn't have FAR installed then), to make sure you know exactly what I am talking about: the control surface asymmetry on the forward wings...

vOLqMFd.jpg

Edited by Northstar1989
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NathanKell

NathanKell

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FAR models wings as thin surfaces (i.e. only area is taken into account by FAR, other parameters are assumed). No information about thickness is passed to FAR, either, since there's no way *to* pass that to FAR.

DYJ, that new wing is soooo pretty! <3

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rynak

rynak

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Where do you see that?

Was mentioned earlier in this thread.

Because in real life thickness, and root-to-tip thickness ratio both affect the aerodynamic properties of a wing...

I thought you were talking about KSP with pwings - not real life.

I was of the understanding that this mod actually used some FAR-like math to internally determine

No, it doesn't.

IF FAR is installed (and only IF), then it might "scale" the metadata that FAR gets (check the cfg files - the default FAR values are in there). It does however not take wing thickness into account. Your ugly looking plane in the screenshot will fly just fine! I'm familiar with this in my own games.

So, either you're suffering from a different bug, or you're reporting a placebo effect.

(All of this is assuming, that the behavior did not change in the most recent version... but the author mentioned no such thing)

Now what about the balance of this mod with Budgets in 0.24? Nobody's answered my inquiry about that yet...

I did.

Edited by rynak
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JeffreyCor

JeffreyCor

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A work around the the various control surface issues that are posted is using the pwing but with stock control surfaces. Just tested that and it seems to work without a problem. Hope it helps everyone for a temp fix :)

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