.20 is buggy.

[Sputnik-1]

So, as we've all seen now, .20 is a bit stuffed full of bugs.

Flags are unstable and explode.

People are having issues with crafts randomly exploding.

Kerbals seem to pop at the slightest nudge.

Performance is down with a lot of people.

Bases end up underground.

I have found cupolas cause crafts to spin out of control.

There are probably more bugs that I haven't covered.

The point is: We're facing this setback due to lackluster testing. These are game-breaking for some of us.

There needs to be a change made, this is a little ridiculous.

If this is a product of trying to rush it out to today (wednesday), then don't do it again, and allow more time for testers to do more things.

If it's not, there are things that need to be changed.

This problem could be avoided by allowing experimental access to the public.

However, I am fully aware of the consequences of that. The bug report section is filled with "it no worky" and useless detail-less posts.

A solution to "it no worky" is making the experimentals and opt-in thing, and using a bugtracker.

Changing the sticky in the bug subforum to something more flashy would help, as well as more concise and easy to look out and go "oh i'm missing X in my report"

Harsher punishment for submitting useless bug reports (i.e. 30 minute ban and/or locking of the thread)

A few propositions.

This is discussion. Feel free to add to this or insult my mother.

[SalmonellaDingDong]

I fully agree with all your ideas. More testers seems to be the only solution... because why would it be released if they knew about the bugs?

[MaxxPower]

Sorry, but you seem to forget, that this game is still in alpha/beta status.

So by definition we ARE the testers.

Although i do agree, that a better bug tracker would come in handy.

Edited May 23, 2013 by MaxxPower

[Sputnik-1]

Sorry, but you seem to forget, that this game is still in alpha/beta status.

So by definition we ARE the testers.

I understand the alpha status on this game, and I understand it to be buggy. But large bugs going unnoticed and being released to the masses is a problem, when supposedly QA and experimental testers have made sure that the build is mostly bug free.

[Levelord]

Sorry, but you seem to forget, that this game is still in alpha/beta status.

So by definition we ARE the testers.

Sorry, but you seem to forget, that there are better ways of testing this game than putting entire savegame files at risk like adding an opt-in experimental download.

[Hyomoto]

"RELIZE NOA SQUAD" does not mesh well with "Y U NO TEST SQUAD". Every single person who downloaded the update should be well aware it will contain bug. As MaxxPower said, we ARE testing it right now. That feedback will go into the next patch. Read the changelog for the game, each major release has had subsequent smaller releases to address issues.

It should also be taken into consideration whether these bugs are affecting old saves or new ones. I started a new save and have not, yet, experienced any of these bugs. Also, we know the old method has been depreciated for mods, and that some do not work right. It's not that I don't think any bugs exist, but I wonder how much of it can be ruled out by cleaning out/updating old mods and starting a new game. These have to be ruled out first and foremost.

[shand]

This problem could be avoided by allowing experimental access to the public.

This is discussion. Feel free to add to this or insult my mother.

if only there was a way they could release the game to the public before it was release quality so they could help bugcheck throughout its development. they could make them a forum on which to discuss it and everything!

Also your mother is a lovely lady, dont bring her into this

In all seriousness though last i heard they were working on improving the quality of pre-"release" (to us) testing. all systems have kinks to sort (bugs if you will). i'm sure squad will use this as a learning experience. and thank you for your acknowledgement that less bugs = more time before release. that's a mature attitude we seem to be generally lacking around here!

Now i have a patch to download...

[ahappydude]

^Woae, i havnt meet any of those(yet) Maybe a patchfix is coming this weekend then ^^

[Devo]

Some time back, before the Krakken ate the forum, we did have the opportunity once (a few of us) to test a version before it came out, it would be handy if they implemented that system once again,

[Thiel]

This problem could be avoided by allowing experimental access to the public.

Squad tried this already, it wasn't pretty and it certainly didn't work. At all.

[OtherDalfite]

There's a reason why the test group is as small as it is. Long ago, when experimentals were public, the bug report forum was FILLED to the brim with horrible, grammatically handicapped posts. They held NO information as to what source the problem was originating from as well as the steps they did to encounter it. The reason the released version was filled with bugs was because the community was basically demanding it be released with all the "wah wah KSP no update" threads. Now, we've got a bug-filled update, and all because half the forum couldn't wait a few weeks for their favorite videogame update. If this is to EVER change, the devs will need to hand pick the volunteers so that way the bug reports submitted are able to be understood. The problem with this, is that most people seem to think being one of the experimental testers is some kind of special treatment, so they whine about that. This further pressures the devs to release the update, whether it's bugs have been sorted out or not.

[Krizzen]

This problem could be avoided by allowing experimental access to the public.

If you are playing 0.20, you are playing the latest experimental public release. Personally, I don't see this is much of an issue. Squad is usually quick to rectify game breaking release bugs they didn't catch before pushing the build to the public.

I don't use the Steam version, but I can imagine that *might* be a problem if it auto updates. I think the best way to manage KSP versions right now is to make a new folder for each new build and copy over what you want to keep and what is compatible. This allows you to go back to older, potentially more stable builds.

Anyway, bugs are inevitable. The game is still heavily under development. No one releases bug free alphas/betas ever.

[Sputnik-1]

If you are playing 0.20, you are playing the latest experimental public release

Anyway, bugs are inevitable. The game is still heavily under development. No one releases bug free alphas/betas ever.

I am playing the latest public release. It is not experimental, it is the official, supposedly major-bug free version.

Experimental is a build that is most likely not stable, and needs to be ground out so there are no major bugs. This did not happen fluently.

And I understand and expect bugs, but when you have a private QA and experimental team, you should have less major bugs that are present in normal gameplay.

Let's not ignore what this is about with a "oh it's alright bugs should be here they'll release a patch soon enough," if QA and experimentals are supposedly as good as they are at finding bugs then there shouldn't be many major bugs and the patch shouldn't have to be made.

[OtherDalfite]

I am playing the latest public release. It is not experimental, it is the official, supposedly major-bug free version.

Experimental is a build that is most likely not stable, and needs to be ground out so there are no major bugs. This did not happen fluently.

And I understand and expect bugs, but when you have a private QA and experimental team, you should have less major bugs that are present in normal gameplay.

Let's not ignore what this is about with a "oh it's alright bugs should be here they'll release a patch soon enough," if QA and experimentals are supposedly as good as they are at finding bugs then there shouldn't be many major bugs and the patch shouldn't have to be made.

The thing is, is that the QA team probably DID find several game breaking bugs, and the coders fixed them. Bugs slip by, and this is what we deserve for being so impatient.

[NeoMorph]

You do realise how complex this game is don't you? Squad are only a small company and don't have the resources of a AAA company (which release finalised games with a LOT more bugs in them).

THIS... IS... AN... ALPHA... ie this is pre-beta state. When it reaches beta it will be in a bugridden state which will need people doing crazy things to find them because let's face it, programmers are the worst people to find bugs in their own work because they don't expect half the things that the public will do. They do try to though.

More hands playing the game will uncover more bugs (which is why I was surprised that they had enabled mods so early in development). More differences in the playing system will make it 10x harder to find bugs too. So the more mods you use will increase the chances of bugs occurring.

This public release IS experimental at this stage. All alpha and beta builds are experimental, Sputnik-1.

[Sputnik-1]

You do realise how complex this game is don't you? Squad are only a small company and don't have the resources of a AAA company (which release finalised games with a LOT more bugs in them).

THIS... IS... AN... ALPHA... ie this is pre-beta state. When it reaches beta it will be in a bugridden state which will need people doing crazy things to find them because let's face it, programmers are the worst people to find bugs in their own work because they don't expect half the things that the public will do. They do try to though.

More hands playing the game will uncover more bugs (which is why I was surprised that they had enabled mods so early in development). More differences in the playing system will make it 10x harder to find bugs too. So the more mods you use will increase the chances of bugs occurring.

This public release IS experimental at this stage. All alpha and beta builds are experimental, Sputnik-1.

Don't pull the complex card on me. I am fully aware of how unreliable Unity is and how much goes into this game. And stop with the "this is an alpha gamebreaking bugs going unchecked by the dev team is 100% okay" crap. Yes, I am FULLY AWARE this is an alpha. I expect bugs. Not gamebreaking bugs going unchecked.

And this is all vanilla, not a single mod used.

There's a difference between experimental, gamebreaking bugs are really to be expected, and public releases, which are supposed to be reliable and in working condition, free of gamebreaking bugs.

[Neomatt]

"RELIZE NOA SQUAD" does not mesh well with "Y U NO TEST SQUAD".

That's pretty much the whole issue right here.

Every code delivery everywhere is pretty much a compromise between release dates and quality.

If SQUAD released nightly builds, people would yell that the game is unplayable, since saves would not be compatible, functionalities would break instantly, and things explode for no reason. And of course, no useful bug reports (or triplicated ones like "IT EXPLODED FIX IT").

If they decided to release only pure. clean, 3-times-tested-all-configurations builds, you'd wait 4 months for a release at least, with no functionalities developed in the meantime (since the devs would do debugging full-time).

Also, those are not "gamebreaking".

Game-breaking means that the game does not run. At all. A flag exploding is small potatoes.

And slowdown/explosions are mostly tracked to not-fully-compatible mods (SubAssembly).

Edited May 23, 2013 by Neomatt

[Sputnik-1]

Let me rephrase in simple terms.

"the few features of this update are riddled with bugs and issues"

"we should have an opt-in ability for experimentals to help with finding and identifying these bugs so they can be fixed"

"i would gladly wait one more week to get a more stable version free of bugs that are causing a lot of players grief"

"this is vanilla with no mods"

[Evil Acrylic]

I am a software developer myself and In fairness to Squad you can test test and test even more but at the end of the day you only have so many combination's of platforms you can test on in a development environment,

To start with Test on XP, Vista, 7 and 8, there is 4 variables right there to check everything works, then you have different CPU then Graphics cards then drivers all on top of these all this can make a script run slightly differently. Do the math on how many things you would have to check.

It is enough to drive you nuts when you are releasing something new and there is a bug that you know you checked.

Total Respect to Squad!! :-)

[Sputnik-1]

The mentality of "squad is love squad is life" on these forums is ridiculous at times.

Not to mention ignoring the main point of this thread.

[jwenting]

maybe if people were to spend less time pestering Squad about the lack of updates and nagging them for new releases, they'd have more time to spend developing and testing rather than drinking away their frustration about the attitude of a part of their users.

[Neomatt]

The mentality of "squad is love squad is life" on these forums is ridiculous at times.

Not to mention ignoring the main point of this thread.

We get it, you'd gladly wait a few weeks more to have a more stable version. Well, don't update till then.

0.18 and 0.19 both had smaller patches done in the following weeks, only focused on bug-fixing. You want to wait for 0.20.1.

You can disable auto-update on Steam, you can keep your old folder on the DRM-free version.

[nats]

I understand the alpha status on this game, and I understand it to be buggy. But large bugs going unnoticed and being released to the masses is a problem, when supposedly QA and experimental testers have made sure that the build is mostly bug free.

The fact is carrying out development of a live game is a nightmare that Squad have had to take on to ensure the niche game they want to do gets done well. Every patch now will break things that have gone before and probably need a hotfix released a few weeks after. You need to get used to it because its going to happen - they cant invest laods of money into testing every patch to the extremes of the earth - it gets tested properly when it is released to us. If you dont like it stop playing the game and wait for it to be finished. I am perfevctly happy as long as Squad fixes things up after each release and keeps it relatively playable in the long term.

But as for people complaining because the patch broken their bases and ruined their savegames - COME ON !!#*!!? This is an alpha version what the hell do you expect to happen during development?

As for it being buggy and laggy - get rid of all of your mods, reinstall and its as smooth as silk. I have experienced no bugs in the short time I have been playing with the patch after my reinstall.

#sick of people whining

Edited May 23, 2013 by nats

[Krizzen]

Here's something I think everyone at Squad should read: Taming the Forum Tiger. It would likely ease tensions they have with the community by giving them perspective from someone who has experienced and managed the endless woes of very, very large gaming communities.

[Challenger-X2]

The mentality of "squad is love squad is life" on these forums is ridiculous at times.

Not to mention ignoring the main point of this thread.

Don't worry, be happy!

Try meditation?