[0.22] Ion Hybrid Electric Pack 30.08.13 --- Soon FKSP!!! See Development Monitor

[ChrisF0001]

The new battery models seem to be identical to the old battery models, though the album picture is different - Or is that a side effect of having both versions installed at once?

[EPD]

The new battery models seem to be identical to the old battery models, though the album picture is different - Or is that a side effect of having both versions installed at once?

Batteries are the same, from MMI. They will be replaced in next release soon. In hour or two i will write bigger post with PLAN for next release.

[Vrana]

First of all, great work, very nice models and very nice idea. It fills a niche in KSP which badly needed filling.

Ofc any advice are welcome, i want this mod be "usefull" but not overpowered

I dont mean to critise anyones hard work but since you asked for advice on this matter...

Many parts in this pack seems to be unbalanced to the point where i will have to edit them before they are used on my designs.

All generators seem to be massively overpowered.

Stock RTG gives 0.75 elec/sec and weighs 0.08.

Your smaller generator gives 15 elec/sec and weighs 0.2. To get 15 elec/sec with normal RTGs you would need 20 of them. Total weight of those 20 stock RTGs would be 1.6 as opposed to your 0.2. With 8x better elec. production to mass ratio then stock these RTGs are defiently overpowered as hell.

Check out Kordas RTGs for more balanced numbers on high output generators (note: his RTGs are actually underpowered but MUCH closer to stock values).

Hybrid Engines are probably (massively) overpowered...

You already have 200 ISP more then LV-N AND you have a much better TWR.

LV-N + micro AIES fuel tank(0.155 mass) has 2.33 TWR.

HF-2500 + micro AIES fuel tank + stock xenon tank has 5.34 TWR.

Yes your engine still needs electricity to run and i cant easily include that into the equation since any reasonable design will use at least partialy solar panels(unless they use your generators which are much too light) but these engines still seem very unbalanced. If i used them as they are now i would definetly never use an LV-N again.

Currently your bigger enigne weighs 4.5. I feel a more reasonable weight which wouldnt make this the best engine in the game would be around 11-12 (which would give it less TWR then LV-N even BEFORE elec. requirments, thats the price you pay for 1k ISP on 250 thrust engine imo ).

Ion engines are overpowered.

Stock ion +stock xenon tank = 0.14 TWR

Your smaller ion + stock xenon tank = 0.55 TWR

Your bigger ion +stock xenon tank = 0.82 TWR

Your small radial ion (which has the same thrust as stock - 0.5) + stock xenon tank = 0.23 TWR!

Your big radial ion +stock xenon tank= 1.97 TWR!

When you consider the fact that all your Ion engines also have 300 more ISP then stock it becomes obvious that these engines defiently need to be heavier to be balanced with stock.

I am not sure how your fuel consumption fits into the story (5.0 elec, 0.2 xenon as opposed to 12 elec,0.1 xenon on stock) but im preety sure it doesnt balance out anything. If it is a nerf anyway, it could easily be considered another advantage over the stock Ion.

Batteries are inline with stock.

Radial adapter is probably ok. Maybe a bit underpowered (too heavy), maybe not.

Xenon tanks are actually somewhat underpowered...

Stock Xenontank is either 700 xenon for 0.12 wet mass(aprox 5.8k fuel to mass ratio) or 400 xenon for 0.07 wet mass aprox (5.7k fuel to mass ratio).

Yours are either 2.4k xenon for 0.66 mass (3.6k ratio) or 5k xenon for 1.35 mass(3.7k ratio). More inline with stock would be 0.4-0.5 wet mass for your smaller tank and 0.9-1 for the bigger one.

Oh i now see there is also a radial tank... It is also too heavy comapred to stock.

Again thank you this great mod.

And please, dont mind my criticism. Only reason i post this is because you asked.

If you dont find it useful or have changed your mind i can just tweak my own installation in silence, just like i had to do with many other popular mods, and still continue to enjoy this awesome mod.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Vrana

[Scotius]

Stock ion engines are overpowered compared to real life. As for RTG - yes, they are vastly overpowered too. But you know what? In real life universe doesn't grind to a screeching halt when sum of the parts on your spaceship overflows the RAM. Sadly, it is what happens in KSP when some of us build a huge ship. I will take one, overpowered RTG and place it on my ever power-hungry kethane refinery because it's just one part, not twenty. It's not perfect solution, but it's the way cookie crumbles.

[p1t1o]

Stock ion engines are overpowered compared to real life. As for RTG - yes, they are vastly overpowered too. But you know what? In real life universe doesn't grind to a screeching halt when sum of the parts on your spaceship overflows the RAM. Sadly, it is what happens in KSP when some of us build a huge ship. I will take one, overpowered RTG and place it on my ever power-hungry kethane refinery because it's just one part, not twenty. It's not perfect solution, but it's the way cookie crumbles.

Then it should be heavier.

[Yorik]

I hope you all enjoy the new pack as much as EPD and I do. Although I agree that there's some balancing issues, there's something you're missing: With upcoming R&D, you will need to do plenty of research before you can use the parts in this pack. So the engines might be overpowered right now, but give it time. Same goes for the generators. Right now they run on nothing. That will change once there's a stock way to harvest new resources.

To make it short: These parts are designed to be the future of kerbalkind, thus they will be available at the very end of the stock tech-tree. All balancing is moot until R&D is properly implemented.

Having said that: The door is now open to discuss all parts, we'd love to hear how you'd configure the parts. I for one am crap at balancing and left it to EPD, so he's the guy to talk to.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Yorik

[p1t1o]

I've balanced mine simply by upping the electricity requirement - no point in all these fancy generators and solar panels if nothing uses much juice!

EG: my HF-2500 uses 40 electricity per second at max thrust

I've also added modular fuels to the hybrids as well.

[EPD]

Hi everyone again,

I hate writing huge posts. I'm aware how many mistakes i will make during it. Just try to avoid any grammar issues you will encounter. ^^'

First of all, before i will discus every part I will tell you that some of them may have miscalculated stats, but non of them are overpowered.

Stock ion engines are overpowered compared to real life.

We are NOT creating parts that are REAL. There is no equivalent for any of this parts in real life and this is not our intention. As I mentioned somewhere before, there are some people among you who are taking KSP as a NASA simulator, and want to have it as real as possible. Also there are people who ENJOY KSP in form as it is given to us and take it with a pinch of salt.

To be honest... You got 3 green beings inside POD, come on, it's just a GAME.

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Second part of my post:

"Long" time ago, when it was like November of 2012 I wanted to create interplanetary multifunction spaceship, and (probably that one) Deep Space mod pack came to live.

I've decided to rescale engine from it, add Dani-Sangs MMI batteries, and create first "Ion engine pack"

Then in KSP Ion engine appeared.

It was weak, with great ISP impulse. It was REAL, or somehow comparable to Ion thrusters which are subjects of many projects around world.

Anyway when someone doesn't have much time to play KSP, sending probe, and waiting for its destiny after several hours, he leaves that part (engine) as useless. I was like this that time.

Ive resized both engines and xenon tanks, gave them more thrust etc so they could be more useful for me, and with them i could create SpaceShips I imagined.

I wanted to created Sci-Fi looking ships, which could do more that just orbit another body. Some of my creations had landers, some of them had probes (like this one above), some of them parts for planetary bases.

I wanted to make fancy and good looking stuff. I didn't want Kerbal Space Program. I wanted Kerbal Future Space Program. Thats why i created and share with you my mod pack, and my crafts.

And it will be the end of my story.

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Now lets head back to Ion Hybrid Electric Pack, you see now. After my several resignations, leaving KSP, not mention of my frustration when i couldn't create emissive texture... Anyway after all strange happenings Yorik answered my thread call, that i need someone to help me with creating those parts.

It is true that I made most of it, models, textures, configs (on which you complain), but if it wasn't Yorik, i will do nothing. He showed me ideas, showed me his works, showed me some unity settings, which would help me export stuff. He took my model, made it better, so I wanted to be better, get motivation to learn and try things. That's how from getting starting with xenon side tank, Ive created my final and great part which is Hybrid Engine.

So again very special thanks to Yorik.

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Focus on parts. As i said, they are not remodeled stock ion engines, or xenon tanks. These are completely new parts, which will give you the opportunity to create scifi looking ships, AND FLY THEM.

Don't try to compare them all with stock parts.

Batteries, Xenon tanks, future Solar Panels - YES

Ion Engines, Hybrid Engines and Generator - DON'T

As batteries, tanks, and solar panels are part of KSP, they should be similar or even maybe equal to stock.

Vrana thanks for your response and for support, I don't feel offended ^^, but I will use your quotes.

Batteries are inline with stock.

Good, at least for now, before we will implement our own batteries in next release.

Xenon tanks are actually somewhat underpowered...

That is true. After so many hours working I was looking at Dry Mass, and use it for Ratio.

New Stats:

X30 Radial will have: 1300 Xenon and 0,22 Mass === F/M Ratio ~5909

X120 will have: 2400 Xenon and 0,41 Mass === F/M Ratio ~5853

X240 will have: 5000 Xenon and 0,84 Mass === F/M Ratio ~5952

Newer technology, better Ratio, but i think it will it wont get overpower opinion now.

Radial adapter is probably ok. Maybe a bit underpowered (too heavy), maybe not.

I think it is good as it is right now.

Ion engines are overpowered.

Stock ion +stock xenon tank = 0.14 TWR

Your smaller ion + stock xenon tank = 0.55 TWR

Your bigger ion +stock xenon tank = 0.82 TWR

Your small radial ion (which has the same thrust as stock - 0.5) + stock xenon tank = 0.23 TWR!

Your big radial ion <= There is no such thing in this mod ^^+stock xenon tank= 1.97 TWR!

When you consider the fact that all your Ion engines also have 300 more ISP then stock it becomes obvious that these engines defiently need to be heavier to be balanced with stock.

I am not sure how your fuel consumption fits into the story (5.0 elec, 0.2 xenon as opposed to 12 elec,0.1 xenon on stock) but im preety sure it doesnt balance out anything. If it is a nerf anyway, it could easily be considered another advantage over the stock Ion.

They are intended to be like this. As I mentioned, Ion enignes (in game) should reflect Ion thrusters idea of low thrust but high ISP impulse, however they should be more useful, so I've made them, not Overpowered, but stronger as they should be. If you feel them still overpowered that "stronger" i could suggest new configuration:

New Stats:

(for compare) Stock Ion + stock xenon tank = 0.14 TWR

(Ion engine + stock xenon tank)

All Ion Engines will have 4200 ISP back from 4500 ISP.

Changed Electric Charge Ratio consume to 9.0 from 5.0, Xenon stays 0.2 (generators would be more useful)

IP-15 radial, now 0.5 Thrust 0.15 Mass = 0.19 TWR

IP-10 small, now 1.5 Thrust 0.35 Mass = 0.33 TWR

IP-20 medium, now 4 Thrust 0.7 Mass = 0.50 TWR

Tell me what you think.

All generators seem to be massively overpowered.

Stock RTG gives 0.75 elec/sec and weighs 0.08.

Your smaller generator gives 15 elec/sec and weighs 0.2. To get 15 elec/sec with normal RTGs you would need 20 of them. Total weight of those 20 stock RTGs would be 1.6 as opposed to your 0.2. With 8x better elec. production to mass ratio then stock these RTGs are defiently overpowered as hell.

Check out Kordas RTGs for more balanced numbers on high output generators (note: his RTGs are actually underpowered but MUCH closer to stock values).

Yes, again I made a big mistake. Used wrong numbers. But you know, its good to have some sleep after all. You get fresh point of view.

New Stats:

G60M - Generator 20 ElectricCharge, 3.2 Mass === 6.25 Ratio

G120XL - Generator 40 ElectricCharge, 6 Mass === 6.6 Ratio

Hybrid Engines are probably (massively) overpowered...

You already have 200 ISP more then LV-N AND you have a much better TWR.

LV-N + micro AIES fuel tank(0.155 mass) has 2.33 TWR.

HF-2500 + micro AIES fuel tank + stock xenon tank has 5.34 TWR.

Yes your engine still needs electricity to run and i cant easily include that into the equation since any reasonable design will use at least partialy solar panels(unless they use your generators which are much too light) but these engines still seem very unbalanced. If i used them as they are now i would definetly never use an LV-N again.

Currently your bigger enigne weighs 4.5. I feel a more reasonable weight which wouldnt make this the best engine in the game would be around 11-12 (which would give it less TWR then LV-N even BEFORE elec. requirments, thats the price you pay for 1k ISP on 250 thrust engine imo ).

I could agree somehow with that... However, Hybrid Engines are something new to KSP, so lets pretend they are more advanced, higher technology engines, that working mechanism inside of it isn't very clear to us, neither for Kerbals. Goal was one - to replace LV-N atomic in advanced design crafts. But yeah, they are little bit overpowered. Lets do something with them.

First of all, we will increase Electric Charge consume ratio a bit... Some sort of electric ionization processes, higher amount of energy needed. (again generators would be more useful)

Second thing, thrust and ISP. As hybrid engine is bridge between ion and liquid fuel engines, it should have much more thrust than Ion and better ISP than Liquids, must be stronger than Old school LV-N, but not overpowered...

I must admit, now when i see that radial hybrid is underpowered, and HF-2500 is hugely overpowered, i have no idea what I was thinking about when i was calculating that stuff...

New Stats:

Changed Electric Charge Ratio consume to 10.0 from 5.0

To compare: LV-N + FL-T100 fuel (0.55mass) + Xenon stock (0.12 mass) = 2.096 TWR

All hybrid engines now have 900 ISP in vacum, and 250 in atmosphere from 1000/280

HF-85 Radial Thrust now 25 from 15, Mass 0.6 from 0.7 === TWR ~2.0

HF-1000 Thrust now 60 from 50, Mass still 2.25 === 2.096 TWR (Identical to LV-N)

HF-2500 Thrust now 200 from 250, Mass 9 from 4.5 === 2.11 TWR

As of higher technology they intended to be stronger that stock, but not so. Let me know what you think about this changes.

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And that will be all for now. Post your comments, share your configs, or approve those i just gave you, so release of fix will be as soon as possible. (3 votes for yes about new stats will be enough)

[Yorik]

Sweet big YES on the above post.

All this stuff is future-tech. If you don't like it, don't use it.

[Keome]

I'll throw in my opinion on this:

First, I love the look of the new parts, and the addition of the hybrid engines which stock does not have.

In stock and the KSPX stock parts expansion, there are three xenon tanks you can use as a guide for your tanks. As long as you're somewhere near these values, then the exact specifics do not matter.

PB-X50R holds 400 Xenon.

PB-X150 holds 700 Xenon.

PB-X300 holds 3000 Xenon.

In stock and KSPX, there are two ion engines. Both have a vacuum ISP of 4200. Once again, as long as you're close enough in terms of power, thrust and ISP, then the exact specifics do not matter.

The stock PB-ION one requires 6 energy per second to run at full thrust.

The KSPX PB-ION2 requires 30 energy per second to run at full power.

For the generators, as long as it's not too powerful (like running 10 large ion engines at full thrust) then the specifics again do not matter. I'd rather have one generator that can replace several RTG just to lower part count.

And there's also nothing that stops someone from manually editing the .cfg files to adjust the numbers to what they want.

Keep up the awesome work!

I vote yes for the minor changes.

[EPD]

All changes mentioned in my "larger" post above are now implemented in new download. Release v 2.1

Third "yes" post is a matter of time, and I can't let unbalanced parts be still downloadable so faster new release.

Download

Space Port

[Vrana]

Good work, EPD.

New numbers look right.

Id probably reduce the TWR on Ion's even more but its close enough now.

I really like your solution for the hybrid engines.

Considering the story from the begginning of your post.... I am sure you arent the only one who feels or felt that way about KSP so why not make two versions of the cfg files?

One with very advanced engines for "Kerbal Future Space Program" and one with stats inline with stock. Then pick one of these verions to be the base of the mod and, on the Spaceport DL page, include a link to the cfg files of the other version.

PS: About the non-existant "big radial ion". Was very late, I probably just chucked on the radial hybrid. I guess lack of sleep gets to us all.

[EPD]

After several hours of nice break from KSP i'm comming back with news for you.

A small plan what should you expect when next bigger release will come out.

second release

---- small side hybrid engine

---- hybrid engine with rotating base, and legs for VTOL landers

---- big generator shown before, but after major model and texture rework. maybe it wont be generator after all, but other future technology thing...

---- external riadial batteries (we need ours models, however those MMI looks nice anyway^^)

---- MPD engine (nuclear generator and engine with purple particles)

---- solar panels

Ofc its only a plan, some of this points are already "under development", some of them may change.

I've started a poll, please have a moment and vote for one of options ^^. We shall see what you want most...

[Sapphire]

After seeing all your cool future-tech stuff, I'm really interested to see what you can do in terms of solar panels.

[Neutrinovore]

Well, I say do ALL of them, but then again I can be kind of greedy, lol.

So, if I have to pick just one... I vote for the rotating VTOL engines and legs, I'm always looking for better VTOL stuff. You put them in the same entry so I count that as one!

BTW, I really like these new parts, but I won't be downloading V1.1 because I LIKE 'overpowered' parts! I play sci-fi anyway, with infinite fuel and such, so for me it's more about looks and power than realism. I've already edited the configs of the engines, increasing thrust by an order of magnitude.

Keep up the great work, looking forward to new parts!

[Xzabath]

Awesome work, always use your mod, cant wait to try the new stuff, Thank you.

I use the larger solar panels all the time, It would be cool to separate them from the stock other than size.

I vote Solar parts, but it doesn't matter whatever is cool hehe.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Xzabath
Didnt want to double post

[Mekan1k]

I found a bug- The radial xenon engines don't work, even in micro-gravity.

[Gaius]

New Stats:

G60M - Generator 20 ElectricCharge, 3.2 Mass === 6.25 Ratio

G120XL - Generator 40 ElectricCharge, 6 Mass === 6.6 Ratio

Okay, the old numbers were OP, but this seems also wrong, except in the other direction. The stock PB-NUK generates 0.75 E/s with a mass of 0.08, yielding a power/mass ratio of 9.375. If power per kg was just kept even, a 3.2 ton generator would yield 30 E/s, and a 6 ton generator would get 56.25. But realistically, efficiency should improve slightly as generators get larger (compare the watts per kg ratio of a SNAP-19 vs. a BES-5 Buk, for example). It should never go down, or you'd just wrap a number of PB-NUKs together in a larger package instead (indeed, some larger batteries in real life are just arrays of smaller batteries if you open the case and look inside). I'd recommend something along the lines of:

G60M: 20 E/s, 2.0 tons (6.7% better power/mass ratio than the PB-NUK).

G120XL: 80 E/s, 7.5 tons (13.7% better power/mass ratio than PB-NUK).

This way, you get higher power per kg efficiency with the larger units, but within reason. Also, IIRC, the G120XL is like double the radius of the G60M? If the height is equal, it should be roughly four times heavier (double the radius of a cylinder increases the volume by four), but I think it's not quite as tall? Anyway, maybe they have different densities/more empty space/padding in one or the other, that's not too important, but yeah, something like these numbers would be a lot more realistic.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Gaius

[EPD]

I found a bug- The radial xenon engines don't work, even in micro-gravity.

Yes, thanks for heads up. In Unity ThrustTransform object didn't have S ^^.

Fix updated in new release v.2.2

Sorry for so many fixes, but you know... **** happens, we can all get exhausted and made mistakes. Important is I'm still here, and fix problems quickly!

Download

Space Port

Okay, the old numbers were OP, but this seems also wrong, except in the other direction. The stock PB-NUK generates 0.75 E/s with a mass of 0.08, yielding a power/mass ratio of 9.375. If power per kg was just kept even, a 3.2 ton generator would yield 30 E/s, and a 6 ton generator would get 56.25. But realistically, efficiency should improve slightly as generators get larger (compare the watts per kg ratio of a SNAP-19 vs. a BES-5 Buk, for example). It should never go down, or you'd just wrap a number of PB-NUKs together in a larger package instead (indeed, some larger batteries in real life are just arrays of smaller batteries if you open the case and look inside). I'd recommend something along the lines of:

G60M: 20 E/s, 2.0 tons (6.7% better power/mass ratio than the PB-NUK).

G120XL: 80 E/s, 7.5 tons (13.7% better power/mass ratio than PB-NUK).

This way, you get higher power per kg efficiency with the larger units, but within reason. Also, IIRC, the G120XL is like double the radius of the G60M? If the height is equal, it should be roughly four times heavier (double the radius of a cylinder increases the volume by four), but I think it's not quite as tall? Anyway, maybe they have different densities/more empty space/padding in one or the other, that's not too important, but yeah, something like these numbers would be a lot more realistic.

Until new big release we will leave them as they are now. Bigger Generator is more advanced, and needs more "metal stuff" inside of it. Feel free to change configs for yourself purpose

[Patupi]

Great work on this EPD & Yorik, I love the looks and effects on these drives. I've always used your mod almost since I started KSP, mostly for the up-sized solar panels, but I've often used your ions too. True, they are a little overpowered, but I don't think massively so.

If you are expanding this mod at present may I make a suggestion? How about an engine that is similar to either ion or hybrid, but lower isp, but it's isp doesn't alter that much in atmosphere? A less efficient engine that would work on planet without huge fuel losses might be useful. Even if it is only dropped to the efficiency of an aerospike engine it might be rather handy. Either say it is some form of particle drive, plasma engine or some other hand waving explanation.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Patupi

[Neutrinovore]

Hmm. Spaceport download isn't working for me. Meh, I'll try again tomorrow.

[EPD]

Hmm. Spaceport download isn't working for me. Meh, I'll try again tomorrow.

Try to log in. It helps, somehow when im not logged, i see very old pictures and download stats on spaceport, after logging everything looks fine

[Neutrinovore]

Try to log in. It helps, somehow when im not logged, i see very old pictures and download stats on spaceport, after logging everything looks fine

Huh. I didn't know that... That actually explains a lot of things... Well anyway, I never signed up over there, don't know why. But I will, well, later today, and I'll see if that helps.

For what it's worth, I've never seen the thing that pops up when I click the 'download' button: This little tiny window pops up, and all it says is 'Message from web page', and there's a little yellow triangle with an exclamation point in it, and the number zero. That's it. (Triangle)! 0. Maybe that's not unusual for most of you more experienced internetters, but I don't know what to make of it, lol.

So, yeah, I'll have another go tomorrow (for me, I'm just getting ready to go to sleep now).

[OopsThatNotWork]

Voting station parts as long as they follow same style as new pack.

[-Velocity-]

It's been a while since I tried this pack out, I was in need of some big xenon tanks so I reinstalled it for 0.21. I like the new tank models! However, is there any particular reason that the X-240L Xenon tanks only hold 5000 units of xenon? The stock KSP PB-X150 xenon canister holds 700 units, but the X-240L is about 56 times the volume of the PB-X150 (it has four times the radius and ~3.5 times the length, at least as I measured it in the VAB. So it is 4^2*3.5 = 56 times the volume of the PB-X150). Multiplying all the numbers of the stock PB-X150 by 56, then the X-240L canister should hold 39200 units of xenon, have a full mass of 6.72 tons, and a dry mass of 2.8 tons. Being conservative and just multiplying by 50 instead of 56, then the numbers are 35000 units of xenon, a full mass of 6 tons, and a dry mass of 2.5 tons.

As a comparison, the current X-240L xenon canister, weighing in at 0.84 tons, is actually larger (maybe 10% longer) than the 2.5 meter Rockomax X200-8 fuel tank, which weighs 4.5 tons. Xenon is NOT a light gas by the way, it is very heavy, and liquid xenon is actually heavier than most kinds of rock. Thus, liquid xenon is actually much heavier than regular rocket fuel.

Anyway, I'll try editing the part files myself see if that works.

Edited August 31, 2013 by |Velocity|