Duna Permanent Outpost Mission Architecture Challenge

[borisperrons]

Having just discovered this, and being well outside the initial 500 day window (Or very close to the end of it) Is it possible to still hop in on this challenge?

You can either start a new save, or you can start 55 days before the next transfer widow to Duna (that, starting from day 500, is on day 739, so your day 1 is day 684).

[PlonioFludrasco]

Just a question:

How can I say that my first stage boosters are re-usable if they disappear when they reach 2.4 Km away from the rocket?

I have to prove that, if focused, they can survive a chutes landing WHITOUT TOUCHING ANITHING after separation(p.e.they separates and open their chutes simultaneously and then nothing else happens, like there's nobody focusing them)?

[Psycix]

Do a launch to prove it, where you focus the boosters and let the payload go out of range.

I never really liked the "there's parachutes on it so it is reusable" thing though. It's too easy to score extra points by slapping on a few radials.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Psycix

[PlonioFludrasco]

What about fully reusable rockets that can survive atmospherical re-entry?

I've found on the web that the Uragan rocket was planned to do this, and I'm trying to build something similar in KSP :D

Uragan rocket:

[Weegee]

Do a launch to prove it, where you focus the boosters and let the payload go out of range.

I never really liked the "there's parachutes on it so it is reusable" thing though. It's too easy to score extra points by slapping on a few radials.

It's a little more involved than that. From the rules:

"Reusable launch vehicle bonus, as suggested by Andellmere & NeilC: If spent stages which can be safely recovered (e.g. no part destroyed on landing / splashdown) originally contained more than 50% of launch vehicle's lift-off weight, your launch interval will be 1.5 times (rather than 2 times) Nominal Capacity. Obviously if parts experience high re-entry heat (e.g. has visible re-entry effects) it is considered burnt in atmosphere."

It takes a bit more effort to make a booster that will land softly on land/water without input. But that last part makes it harder to make a fully re-usable rocket, you'd need to use the "re-entry proof" parts (spaceplane parts, capsules, ect.) or put a shield over it so any non-heatshield parts do not get re-entry effects. I don't think anyone has actually made a fully re-usable rocket for this challenge, but by all means you can try

[meyst]

I have an update on my slow challenge progress.

A cycler ship. (Crew transfer ship docked to it in the picture)

Cycler Mass 11.6 Tons Thrust to Weight ratio 0.01

---

The cycler ship is designed to rotate to create centrifugal force (artificial gravity) for the crew in the habitat. I created a simple (not very good) slide show so you can see for yourself if you are so inclined (I recommend clicking through the picture menu at the bottom because I had no idea what I was doing ... and it shows).

Pictures above are the result of construction testing. I constructed it in orbit from a specialized cycler habitat module, three supply modules and an orbital solar array. The five components require three launches of my four ton capacity rocket. I sent up a Kerbal in a crew vehicle to assemble it and was pleased to discover the ship was capable of self assembly. Everything even went together right the first time!

The craft is equipped with enough supplies for a full return trip all the way back to Kerbin if needed. Communications gear, balanced RCS (so the cycler is capable of being the active craft for docking to improve safety). Plenty of electricity provides power for the habitat and three ion engines (One aft and two on the habitat that are angled slightly away from the hull to prevent fouling of the rest of the craft).

I ended up favoring electric drive for three reasons, safety, thrust to weight requirements, resupply. As cyclers are expected to operate in deep space for years at a time and far from... everything, the fewer moving parts represent a significant risk reduction. In addition the fuel is not highly corrosive and no radioactive materials are required on board to make it work. Once up to speed, the orbit a cycler vehicle will be operating on requires only minor propulsive maneuvers, with plenty of time to do them. The low thrust on ion engines is adventurous when setting up multiple gravity assists, in which precision is important. Anything being delivered to a cycler needs to be brought up to the velocity of the cycler, a significant and exponential investment. The high Isp reduces fuel mass considerably and ultimately creates significant savings. In addition the nature of the xenon fuel would eliminate fuel losses due to the boil off real world cryogenic fuels such as hydrogen and oxygen would be prone to.

Edited February 26, 2014 by meyst

[meyst]

Progress continues, a three module lander undergoing TPS testing.

[meyst]

My mission plans keep breaking down because of serious supply issues (using a 4 ton lander to bring in 1 ton of supplies to the surface of Duna was just not efficient enough, even though the mobility offered was amazing) and time constraints due to 'real life stuff' and 'being responsible'. To solve the main issues I have quit my job to play KSP full time!

Just kidding but I wish a wasn't

I made a new supply delivery craft I would like to share.

The new supply craft is light enough to be launched two at a time on my four ton lifter, a 100% improvement!

Like the previous larger model its final landing is propulsive, because it's better! I don't actually know if that's true but it does seems to working for me.

After landing the legs are retracted and the Bob supply craft lays on it side.

Mobility was still a very important feature I wanted to retain but wheels would require more mass, for a larger thermal protection system and um... wheels. Instead the Roller Bob is the wheel! Moving across the surface like a giant rolling pin, it will flatten all in it's path that dare defy it! On the low gravity of Duna it has surprisingly good mobility.

I intended to take more screenshots but I destroyed the test craft displayed above when I had it jump off the top of a hill at 23 M/S and slam into the ground resulting in a rapid unplanned dis-assembly. NOT RATED FOR REALLY COOL JUMPS!

Alternatively the Supply craft could be moved using other assets after landing, like in this security footage of a Roller Bob full of snacks being stolen

The suspected rover seen here remains at large. If you see this Rover or have any tips regarding this theft of snacks or any theft report it to your local law enforcement authorities. This Rover is considered sneaky and hungry. All Kerbals are advised to use extreme caution if they spot this or any ravenous rover pilfering snacks.

[Speeding Mullet]

nice solution that rolling job there, presumably it has enough torque to upright itself at location? Good to see you checking in again with progress.

I tried a mixture of propulsive and chute landings in my mission, and found that a balance of the two worked for me, but I was dropping 26 tonne a pop onto the surface. I think if I was to do the mission again I would drop the chutes, they led to some seriously dangerous EDL's!

[meyst]

On Duna it does, on Kerbin it does not. I was not certain it could upright itself until I did the test at Duna.

[Northstar1989]

I would like to attempt this challenge in a future save (I have been eying it for a while), BUT I have the following concerns I would like to address first (and argue as necessary) regarding mod usage:

(1) First of all, I would like to carry out this mission making use of as much In-Situ Resource Utilization as possible (like *REAL* NASA mission-plans). I'm not really a fan of Kethane, so instead I would like to make use of KSP-Interstellar for its ISRU refineries and small Thorium-fueled Molten Salt Fission Reactors (a next-generation reactor technology, China optimistically estimates it will have in mass-production in 10 years) to power the ISRU refineries.

I'm not planning on using anything crazy or OP'd like gas-core fission reactors, fusion reactors, antimatter reactors, or the DT-Vista engine; although I would also like to make use of Thermal Turbojet planes (a technology designed in the 1950's/60's but never put to use) for Duna-mobility, as well as Microwave Beamed Power (we've had the necessary technology to do this since the 1960's, and to do it at an price affordable since about 2005), and Nuclear Thermal Rockets (the more realistic KSP-Interstellar version of NERVA) in extra-atmospheric conditions.

I can foresee concerns about radiation pollution from nuclear-powered Thermal Turbojets, the same way as for NERVA use in Duna's atmosphere (although Indirect Cycle thermal turbojets or rockets would eliminate much of the radiation hazard), so I would like to use Microwave Beamed Power to beam the power for the Thermal Turbojets to my Duna aircraft using Microwave Beamed Power and Thermal Receivers, and keep the reactors (and all the radiation) safely in sealed stationary reactors on the ground on Duna or in orbit of Duna (although this scheme involves power-loss of the beamed power over both distance and through the atmosphere, it keeps the radiation and reactor weight both safely on the ground).

The Microwave Beamed Power I can see as being the most possibly contentious issue, so I would like to set some rules in advance about how many MW of it (if any) I am allowed to use ground-based at the KSC (mainly to power electric or thermal propulsion systems for trans-Duna-injection) or from solar-power satellites deployed as part of my mission payload limits, but not sent towards Duna- instead sent towards Kerbol and Eve orbit where there is more sunlight available... (the same rules applying to use of aerobrakes at Eve as with Duna of course- in fact I might install Deadly ReEntry just so nobody can question my craft survivability, and because I think the stock placeholder-system for this challenge doesn't allow enough engineering creativity in how to handle re-entry heat...)

Also, last, but not least, I would like to consider usage of the KSP-Interstellar plasma thrusters (with power levels available from onboard KSP-Interstellar Molten Salt Reactors, they actually under-perform stock ion engines in terms of TWR due to the heavy reactor- they're only better with Microwave Beamed Power, in direct proportion to the amount of power received) and Solar Sails (if I can figure out a mission plan that can actually use them to get any reasonable mass of Cargo to Duna in under 1000 days- most likely they'll just be used for slight adjustments of approach trajectory due to their EXTREMELY low thrust even in time-warp...)

Once again, these are all real-world technologies available today (or in the special case of Thorium Molten Salt Reactors, within the next 10-12 years if China's plan is a success) and well-balanced against the rest of the KSP Interstellar mod (which also adds the need to add radiators to my spacecraft- including stock-only craft, for extra mass).

Links on Thorium Molten Salt Reactors (note that the same reactor design can also be used with Uranium)

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100026863/china-going-for-broke-on-thorium-nuclear-power-and-good-luck-to-them/

http://www.the-weinberg-foundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Thorium-Fuelled-Molten-Salt-Reactors-Weinberg-Foundation.pdf

http://energyfromthorium.com/2014/03/21/the-molten-salt-reactor-race-will-america-join-the-race/

http://www.whatisnuclear.com/reactors/msr.html

(2) Second, I would like to make use of an addition mod in the spirit of In Situ Resource Utilization- CELSS Greenhouse mod. Basically, in combination with TAC Life Support (which I would also have to install in order to do anything) it allows you to build/launch greenhouses as components on your ship. They consume ElectrricCharge and waste-products (CO2, Waste, WasteWater) from TAC Life Support to produce Food, Oxygen, and Water in a closed-cycle life support system.

Now before anyone goes calling this overpowered, they are QUITE HEAVY, and the length of time one has to be in continuous operation in order to convert wastes into as much Food, Water, and O2 as its own weight is something like 1200 days- *LONGER* than the length of time of the challenge. So, my purposes in making use of the mod would be more for flavor and roleplaying ("crew morale") rather than any sort of actual advantage. It would also save me a headache on supply-missions, being able to simply launch a few big, heavy greenhouses and then not have to worry nearly as much about resupply in the future- though I could just as easily launch a lighter giant TAC Life Support barge to Duna orbit (and ferry the modules with a reusable-rocket deriving its fuel from Interstellar-ISRU or Kethane as necessary) to accomplish the same thing for less mass, and allow my outpost to continue to be sustainable past the end of the challenge...

Regards,

Northstar

Edited June 24, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Northstar1989]

I just KNOW somebody who doesn't have experience with KSP-Interstellar is going to come around and criticize it as "cheaty" or "OP'd", and the thread host will believe their (unfounded) claim, and that will be the end of my request to utilize KSP-Interstellar Microwave Beamed power for some realistic and innovative mission strategies for this challenge...

So I'm going to pre-empt that with some concrete examples of how it's not really OP'd. You guys are lucky here- I'm sharing these screenshots on this thread before even posting them to my ongoing Mission Reports thread.

Anyways, take a look at this picture:

8.34 Gigawatts of beamed power- seems like a lot, doesn't it? And it is- it took me no fewer than NINE enormous 3.75 meter reactors and two 2.5 meter reactors (as well as corresponding generators, control, transmission, and heat-management equipment), all of the highly advanced Solid Bed Molten Salt Reactor variant, which is a bit more advanced than the Liquid Fluoride Molten Salt Reactors I've requested to use for this challenge; a 2.3 MW solar array, and several smaller solar arrays to obtain that much electricity- more than 40 GW at the sources, but only 8.3 by the time it reached this spacecraft!

But want to guess how much thrust I'm obtaining using that in an appropriately-sized plasma thruster? (a real-life type of electric propulsion, that actually can be scaled up to such mind-boggling power levels- if only our spacecraft had access to that much power...) Not coincidentally, the size of it I used has a maximum rated power capacity of approximately 8.314 GW, so this is at MAXIMUM power for a thruster of this size, with realistic ISP and Thrust levels (unlike the stock Ion Thruster, the KSP Interstellar ion thrusters DO NOT have higher Thrust-per-kW than their real-life counterparts) and based on use of Hydrogen as a propellant (optimal in ISP for this thruster type, but lower in thrust than heavier propellants)- which KSP Interstellar takes LiquidFuel to represent...

56.8 kN. You read that right- FOR MORE POWER THAN I COULD HOPE TO LAUNCH FOR MY ENTIRE MASS BUDGET FOR THIS CHALLENGE, assuming I launched nothing but nuclear reactors, I only got 56.8 kN of thrust. Which adds up to an anemic TWR of 0.15 for this craft...

It's more powerful than the stock ion thruster, to be sure (though it actually gets much less thrust per kW of electricity). But it's certainly not a game-breaker. And it *IS* realistic technology- real life electrical engines could get this kind of thrust and ISP (in many cases, ISP increases with power levels in real life electrical engines) if they had access to 8.34 Gigawatts of power (and they could have access to 8.34 Gigawatts of power if NASA would just suck it up and pay for a Microwave Beamed Power network instead of shuddering at the initial-investment cost of $2 million a MW for both the generation capacity and transmission capacity to do this at small-scale: and costs decrease as this is scaled up)

And some of you might be wondering why this thruster (or the Microwave Receiver dish) didn't melt at this power level. Well basically, they did- or rather they rapidly heated up, and quickly overwhelmed the limited mass of coolant and radiator I built into this spacecraft (approximately 200 kilograms' worth)- the engines could only run like this for about 20-30 seconds before things began to overheat and went into Emergency Shutdown:

And at a heat-dissipation of 8 Megawatts of WasteHeat a second at close to maximum-temperature of 3500 Kelvin (if I had actually reached this temperature, things would have begun to explode), this is going to take a LONG time for the spacecraft to cool back down... (heat-dissipation via radiation follows the Stefan-Boltzmann Law, meaning it increases or decreases with the fourth power of temperature. WasteHeat is going to start bleeding off a LOT more slowly as the spacecraft cools...)

Of course, this was a flawed design, and entirely my fault- I built the ion transfer tug you see here with far too light of a heat-management system (with a half-dozen or so metric tons of equipment/radiators, heat levels like this could be handled...) But I think it gets my points across that the modern-era technologies such as these (as opposed to later futuristic technologies) of KSP-Interstallar that I want to use are FAR from a "free ticket to Duna".

Regards,

Northstar

P.S. For those of you curious, the spacecraft pictured here is a tug docked to a reusable lander hopefully destined for the Sentar system (a second gas giant, analogue to Saturn, added by Krag's Planet Factory mod), which should explain to you why it has such insane mass fractions for an ion-powered craft. And yet, it will probably end up using 1/5th-1/6th of its Delta V just to get a minimum-energy intercept with Sentar. The leftover fuel is NOT for a return journey- I prefer to send my craft on much higher-speed transfers than necessary, to role-play reduced radiation-exposure and psychological stress on the crew, so it will be accelerating towards Sentar until it has used over 60% its Delta-V, with the remainder being used to reduce the G's of the aerobrake by a last-minute deceleration before atmospheric entry, and to rendezvous with the crewed modules which will also be arriving on fast transfers...

Edited June 25, 2014 by Northstar1989

[borisperrons]

Again, kudos to you. This plan of yours will involve a lot of planning, and I personally don't absolutely see it as cheaty.

Hopefully, I'll be able to put my head again on this stuff, and finally complete it...

[Northstar1989]

Again, kudos to you. This plan of yours will involve a lot of planning, and I personally don't absolutely see it as cheaty.

Thanks- but what I really need is the thread author's permission...

Hopefully, I'll be able to put my head again on this stuff, and finally complete it...

Best luck!

[Westi29]

I have used KSO launches to first send a probe, then a manned landing and return, then a base construction in LKO and transfer to Duna, then completed a crew swap. I don't have any of the dates, but they are all on video on my youtube KSO series and I have an album of the base construction in my signature. Not sure if this is acceptable and I don't know how to format or otherwise document the missions from post (especially if it's for naught). Either way, the main mission is to study the Face.

[Ydoc124]

i was wanting to know. can I use kerbal attachment system? I know you said no orbital construction mods but I wanted to use it to connect base parts

[borisperrons]

I think that yes, you can, although not using it will gain you more internet cookies for designing a ship stable on his own.

[meyst]

Have had limited free time to work on this and what free time I have tends to get put into other things when people I know discover I have free time. Not a bad thing but it is a thing. A progress update is long overdue. The overall plan is set. Just a matter of breaking it all down into the details of the individual launches for the full 1000 day plan and start flying missions. I have considered asking on the forums if anyone with artistic talent would be willing to make some diagrams as to how this all works. I think this would go a long way to prevent incidents of eye bleeding. I was thinking something like the diagrams showing how the Apollo Moon landings worked. Also I am thinking I should name the three cyclers but have not decided on names.

External game tools that I am using for planning or intended to use while executing.

Alexmoon's Launch Window Planner

Alterbaron's Aerobreaking Calculator

PLAD's Flyby Finder

Overall Plan Highlights

Cyclers! Three of them.

One of the planned cycler trips will transit a crew from the SOI of Kerbin to the SOI of Duna, in thirty days. The cycler in question flys a fast outbound Aldrin cycler trajectory.

A propulsive Gravity Assisted Breaking Maneuver at the Mun.

4 ton capable reusable lifter used every 7 days, well over 70 total launches in the first 500 days.

Eve Flyby on day 217, closest approach of 1622 KM.

First crew land on Duna day 260. The first crew will return to Kerbin day 512, using the same cycler vehicle they arrived on for the return trip.

All Stock Game.

Day 500 Summary

Kerbals on Duna 6

Kerbal Days spent on Duna 1080

Launches 77, 71 payload, 6 crew.

Nominal mass to orbit (71 x 4) 284 tons

Early Mission Value 1080

Early Mission Efficiency 3.8

Achievment Score currently 8.

Achievement Score expected when complete. 11

Score breakdowns. Mission Execution; current 0, expected 3. Crew Mobility; All crew have rover access, 2. Base Mobility; All bases and landed modules are mobile after landing by various means, 3. Crew Safety; Crew can return alive in the event of a total loss of any non crewed spacecraft and in the event of an engine failure, loss of rover mobility or piloting error resulting in a loss of 20% Delta V, 2. Mission Robustness; Any single launch failure will not prevent the primary objective and a loss can be made up for by accelerating launch rate to once every 6 days until back on schedule. Total loss of Cycler vehicle I before delivery of first crew to Duna could prevent primary objective from being achieved, 1.

DREAMS OF DUNA

AKA The Laundry List, first 500 days. Now with Moar poor formatting!

10 Duna Hab Fuel Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

17 Duna Hab Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

24 Boosters Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

31 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

38 Fuel Cells Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

45 Rover Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

46 Final assembly of Duna Habitat I in Kerbin orbit (Duna Hab Fuel, Duna Hab, Booster, Fuel Cell, Fuel Cells[3], Rover)

52 Duna Hab Fuel Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

58 Duna Habitat I Trans Duna Injection Maneuver

59 Duna Hab Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

66 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

73 Fuel Cells Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

80 Rover Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

81 Final assembly of Duna Habitat II in Kerbin orbit (Duna Hab Fuel, Duna Hab, Booster, Fuel Cell, Fuel Cells[3], Rover)

87 Solar Array Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

87 Solar Array I start of Trans Duna Injection Maneuvers

90 Solar Array I completion of Trans Duna Injection Maneuvers

94 Taxies Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

95 Duna Habitat II Trans Duna Injection Maneuver

101 Cycler Hab Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

108 Cycler Spine Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

115 Cycler Supply Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

121 Aerocapture of Duna Hab I into Duna orbit.

122 Cycler Supply Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

129 Solar Array Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

136 Boosters Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

143 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

150 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

151 Final Assembly of Cycler vehicle I (Cycler Hab, Cycler Spine, Cycler Supplies [2], Solar Array) and payload (Taxi, Booster, Roller Bobs [3])

152 Kerbal delivered to cycler vehicle I via a Tarriance launch

153 Kerbal delivered to cycler vehicle I via a Tarriance launch

154 Cycler Vehicle I start of Trans Eve Injection Maneuvers

157 Duna Hab Fuel Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

164 Duna Hab Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

165 Cycler Vehicle I completion of Trans Eve Injection Maneuvers

171 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

178 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

185 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

192 Rover Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

199 Fuel Cells Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

200 Final Assembly of Duna Habitat III with supplies in Kerbin orbit (Duna Hab Fuel, Duna

Hab, Rover, Roller Bobs [3], Fuel Cell[2], Fuel Cells[2], Booster)

206 Cycler Hab Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

213 Cycler Spine Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

217 Cycler Vehicle I Eve Flyby, closest approach of 1622 KM for gravity assist to Duna.

220 Solar Array Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

223 Propulsive Capture of Solar Array I into a high exccentricty Duna Orbit.

227 Larders Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

234 Boosters Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

235 Final Assembly of Cycler Vehicle II (Cycler Hab, Cycler Spine, Solar Array, Larders (3), Booster, Taxi)

239 Aerocapture of Duna Hab II into Duna orbit

241 Larders Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

248 Taxies Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

255 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

256 Final Assembly of Taxi vehicle for intercept of Cycler Vehicle I during Kerbin Flyby (Taxi, Larders(2), Booster, Fuel Cell, Fuel Cells)

257 Two Kerbals, Taxi, Booster and Roller Bobs (3) Depart from Cycler Vehicle I. Minor propulsive maneuvers of Taxi, Booster and Roller Bobs to facilitate Duna aerocaptures.

260 Aerocapture of Roller Bobs (3), Taxi and Booster into Duna orbit. Cycler Vehicle I Duna Flyby and closest approach of 544 KM for gravity assist to Kerbin. Taxi docks with Duna Habitat I. Two Kerbals transfer to Duna Habitat I. Duna Habitat I and three Roller Bobs land on the surface of Duna. Solar Array I maneuvers into position to support landed Duna Habitat.

262 Monopacks Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

269 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

276 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

282 Kerbal delivered to cycler vehicle II via a Tarriance launch

283 Kerbal delivered to cycler vehicle II via a Tarriance launch

283 Boosters Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

284 Cycler Vehicle II start of Trans Duna Injection Maneuvers

289 Duna Habitat III Trans Duna Injection Maneuver

290 Landing Pack Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

295 Cycler Vehicle II completion of Trans Duna Injection Maneuvers

297 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

301 Cycler Vehicle I, Mun Interception Maneuver

304 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

305 Final assembly of Supply Mission I (MonoPack, Landing Pack, Roller Bobs[3], Booster and Fuel Cell[2] for transit to Duna)

305 Kerbal delivered to Taxi vehicle via a Tarriance launch for approaching taxi intercept of cycler vehicle I

306 Kerbal delivered to Taxi vehicle via a Tarriance launch for approaching taxi intercept of cycler vehicle I

308 Cycler Vehicle I, Propulsive Gravity Assisted Breaking Maneuver at Mun to set up Kerbin Gravity Assist to Duna. Cycler Vehicle I Kerbin Flyby. Depart of Taxi from Kerbin with two Kerbals on board to randevous and dock with Cycler vehicle I bound for Duna.

311 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

312 Supply Mission I Trans Duna Injection Maneuver

318 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

319 Final assembly of Supply Mission II (Booster, Fuel Cell, Roller Bobs[3])

323 Depart of Taxi and booster with two Kerbas from Cycler Vehicle II in preperation for Duna aerocature.

325 Cycler Vehicle II flyby of Duna. Aerocapture of Taxi and booster carrying two Kerbals into Duna orbit. Taxi docks with Duna Habitat II. Two Kerbals transfer to Duna Habitat II. Duna Habitat II lands on the surface of Duna.

325 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

326 Supply Mission II Trans Duna Injection Maneuver

332 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

339 Boosters Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

346 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

350 Breakup of Duna Habitat III and Roller Bobs(3) in preperation for aerocaptures

353 Aerocaptures of Duna Hab III and Roller Bobs(3) into Duna orbit

353 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

360 Landing Pack Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

361 Final assebly of Supply Mission III (Booster, Landing Pack, Fuel Cell [2], Roller Bob[3])

367 Cycler Hab Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

368 Supply Mission III Trans Duna Injection Maneuver

374 Cycler Spine Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

375 Depart of Taxi and booster with two Kerbas from Cycler Vehicle I and three Roller Bobs in preperation for Duna aerocature.

378 Cycler Vehicle I flyby of Duna. Aerocapture of Taxi and booster carrying two Kerbals into Duna orbit. Taxi docks with Duna Habitat III. Two Kerbals transfer to Duna Habitat III. Duna Habitat III and three Roller Bobs land on the surface of Duna. Taxi vehicle remains in orbit

381 Solar Array Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

388 Larders Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

395 Taxies Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

396 Final Assembly of Cycler Vehicle III (Cycler Hab, Cycler Spine, Solar Array, Larders (3), Booster, Taxi)

402 Boosters Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

409 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

416 Duna Hab Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

417 Final Assembly of Taxi vehicle for intercept of Cycler Vehicle II during Kerbin Flyby (Taxi, Larder, Booster, Fuel Cell)

423 Duna Hab Fuel Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

430 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

437 Rover Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

442 Breakup of Supply Mission I and Roller Bobs(3) in preperation for aerocaptures

444 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

445 Aerocaptures of Supply Mission I (MonoPack, Landing Pack, Booster, Fuel Cell[2]) and Roller Bobs(3) into Duna orbit.

451 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

458 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

465 Boosters Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

466 Final Assembly of Duna Habitat IV with supplies in Kerbin orbit (Duna Hab Fuel, Duna

Hab, Rover, Roller Bobs[3], Fuel Cell[3], Booster)

472 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

475 Breakup of Supply Mission II Roller Bobs in preperation for aerocaptures

478 Aerocaptures of Supply Mission II (Booster, Fuel Cell) and Roller Bobs(3) into Duna orbit .

479 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

486 Fuel Cell Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

493 Fuel Cells Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

500 Roller Bobs Launched to Kerbin orbit on Sylph

That will be all for this update!

Edited August 15, 2014 by meyst

[hawkinator]

I'm curious, what would y'all think if I launched the whole mess (minus crew) in one launch, using some absurd Whackjob style lifter, and then brought the crew in a more conventional crew shuttle. The lifters nominal capacity would be something like a hundred tons (or more), so it'd be a whole transfer window or two before I'd be able to launch anything else. I'm planning on using TAC life support and possibly creating a kethane installation with the second launch. Thoughts?

[Death Engineering]

I'm curious, what would y'all think if I launched the whole mess (minus crew) in one launch, using some absurd Whackjob style lifter, and then brought the crew in a more conventional crew shuttle. The lifters nominal capacity would be something like a hundred tons (or more), so it'd be a whole transfer window or two before I'd be able to launch anything else. I'm planning on using TAC life support and possibly creating a kethane installation with the second launch. Thoughts?

I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with using large monolithic launches to Duna. I'd considered a similar idea early on with a 100t lifter but I couldn't come up with a mission plan that fit better than smaller missions, allowing better utilization of launch windows.

I'd say 'go for it', as long as the 'crew shuttle' doesn't leave Kerbin orbit.

[Death Engineering]

Have had limited free time to work on this and what free time I have tends to get put into other things when people I know discover I have free time. Not a bad thing but it is a thing. A progress update is long overdue....

Had a good look at this post and have to say I think the small payload/rapid launch method could be the best path to a Dream of Duna. Well done!

[Death Engineering]

"Duna Permanent Outpost Mission Architecture Challenge" with BTSM Mod

The Better Than Starting Manned (BTSM) mod, for anyone not familiar with it, is a complete overhaul of KSP. Along with the Deadly Reentry Redux mod, BTSM includes requirements for life support and very high demands for electric charge on both crewed and uncrewed vessels. The mod also includes methods for processing raw materials into fuel, life support and monopropellant in space and while landed.

The life support resource is very heavy and there are no command pods which are suitable for interplanetary multi-crew missions (there is a habitation module/science module but it's more for science vessels not for interplanetary travel). The fuel, life support and monopropellant processing parts are also very heavy and have a slow production rate. Most stock parts are either nerfed or completely modified to have different roles. The effectiveness of RCS and reaction wheels have been reduced, solar panels are only partially effective at Duna's orbit and even the LV-N's great ISP has been reduced to 800.

Basically, trying this challenge in a BTSM environment is probably a fools-errand. So, to help make this mission do-able, I will also be incorporating Kerbal Attachment System (KAS). This post introduces two vessels for this challenge submission: the DE-1 lifter (primary lifter for this challenge) and a Kerbin <-> Duna 4-crew shuttle. But first, a showcase of some BTSM parts to provide a flavor for how BTSM differs from stock KSP:

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[td]

Kerbodyne "Chain Shot" Liquid Engine Cluster

Max thrust: 6750

Engine ISP: 270 (ASL) - 330 (Vac)

Propellants:

220.9/sec. Max

270.0/sec. Max

Thrust corrector: Zero ISP at 7 atm

[/td]

[td][/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]

Kerbodyne "Mutineer" Liquid Engine

Max thrust: 3850

Engine ISP: 300 (ASL) - 350 (Vac)

Propellants:

116.9/sec. Max

142.8/sec. Max

Thrust corrector: Zero ISP at 7 atm

[/td]

[td][/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]

Monopropellant Processing Unit

Mass: 7.5

Electrical charge requirement: 9.0/min

Production rate: 0.9/day

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[/tr]

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[td]

PPD-12 Cupola Module

Mass: 4.54

Electrical charge requirement: 6.7/min

Life support use: 9.0 per Kerbal/hour

Resource on board: 1000 life support

*With optional recycler:

Mass: 7.0

Electrical charge: 10.0/min

Life support use: 1.8 per Kerbal/hour

[/td]

[td][/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

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Primary Lifter and Kerbin-Duna Shuttle (KDS)

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[td]

Kerbin-Duna Shuttle

Reusable craft to carry up to 4 crew between

Kerbin and Duna. Featuring 4 Cupolas, each

with their own recycler, and a reusable

inflatable heat shield.

Propulsion: Twin LV-N Atomic Rocket Motor

Mass: 88

Crew: 4

Life support: 70 days with 4 crew

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[/tr]

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[td]

DE-1 Heavy Lifter

Triple-radial primary stage with

6 SRB's (all recoverable). Single

engine second stage.

Nominal payload mass: 86

Lifter mass at takeoff: 835

Recoverable mass: 711

Mass fraction recovered: 85%

Days between refit: 129 days

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[/tr]

[/table]

A complete mission plan outlining the 8 launches during the first 1000 days will be coming soon. This third entry to the "Duna Permanent Outpost Mission Architecture Challenge" is unlikely to break any records on scoring.. in fact, I'll be happy to get four crew there and back without any losses.

Lastly, this mission will be carried out in KSP 0.23.5 in order to maintain stability with KAS and BTSM. Additional mods are Kerbal Alarm Clock and visual effects.

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Edit:

BTSM's designer Flowerchild is making huge headway in balancing late-game BTSM for KSP 0.24. Based on this, I will be delaying planning phase for approximately 4 weeks to allow for a KSP 0.24 capable BTSM that is balanced for late-game playability.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Death Engineering
Updated BTSM version

[Jasonden]

"Duna Permanent Outpost Mission Architecture Challenge" with BTSM Mod

Wow, sweet, dude. This does sound much more challenging! I look forward to seeing your results!

[Progressm]

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I'm in the early stages of planning this challenge...it's not a new thread, obviously, but I really like the idea, so going to go for it.

I ran some early "simulation" tests of my mobile habitat / surface-to-orbit vehicle - it needs further work but I enjoy the concept so thought I'd share.

The departure back to orbit is rather explosive and all activated with the push of one button. :-) Essentially the idea is for the vehicle to work as a 8-kerbal long term habitat; on departure, all the crew will hop into the 2 front cabins and detach the rear habitat / food truck so the next crew can take them into use as extra room...the trip to orbit is short so they can squeeze in.

In orbit, they will discard the aerospike ascent engine block, connect to a NERVA transfer stage with 2 more cabins and food and return to Kerbin orbit; the nose of the vehicle acts as heatshield on Kerbin return.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Progressm

[Death Engineering]

Flipping through the images makes me wish this was a video.. did not expect your rover to rear-up and take off! Welcome to the challenge.