I've been playing this game for like two years now...

[Frostiken]

... and I still can't do anything useful with spaceplanes.

Take the completely stock, ships-with-the-game Aeris 4A. It has a rocket engine and everything. And RCS, and a coupler! If anything is designed to get into space, it's this. And it ships with the game, so it should be pretty simple to get into space.

1) Try to get off the runway fifteen times. Fourteen times it inexplicably rolls over and explodes. Requires length of entire runway and the little drop at the end to get in the air without losing rocket engine. Much like every other spaceplane, it inexplicably always wants to yaw off to the left on the runway.

2) Spend three minutes gradually inching the nose around to the heading I need. Lose plane at least once as it completely departs from controlled flight.

3) Fly for ten minutes. Entire flight has to be done at a pitch of 45 degrees, and that's just to get a small amount of vertical gain. Despite the fact that the wings on this thing are massive and it's got two giant jet engines, it's utterly incapable of straight-and-level flight. Attempting straight and level means dropping from the sky like a rock. Apparently the concept of lift is a foreign one to Kerbals.

4) At around 18km with the jet engines rapidly losing efficiency and almost no intake air, I close all the intakes, turn off the jet engines, and turn on the rocket engine.

5) Watch as spaceplane rockets to the heavens continues to have to fly at a 45 degree angle, doesn't gain speed in any appreciable fashion, and takes almost all of its fuel and goes absolutely nowhere.

This pretty much sums up my experience with every spaceplane I've ever tried to use. I don't think I've gotten a single one into orbit. I don't get it.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Frostiken

[wolfedg]

Sadly, as good of a space sim as this game is, it is seriously lacking in the area of aerodynamic flight. I call my spaceplane missions a success if they make lko with almost no fuel left, I don't even bother trying to land them anymore as they always spin out of control as soon as they get any appreciable atmospheric deceleration(around 30-35k).

[Nibb31]

I don't even understand the appeal for spaceplanes in KSP. The flight model is so crazy that it doesn't feel like flying a plane anyway, none of the aircraft respond like actual aircraft, there is no lift or stall... It's ridiculous and pointless. I might try to build one when the aerodynamic model is finished, but until then, there really is no point.

[CozmikR5]

KSP aerodynamics are "special".

[RocketPilot573]

All Kerbins atmosphere knows how to do is "slow down" moving objects. Seriously, throw a ship straight at Kerbin at over 10,000 m/s and watch it lose 99% of that speed long before it reaches the ground.

[Promii]

The Aeris 4A is actually not very good without some modification. See

[Commander Zoom]

Spaceplanes were never really planned to be part of the game. They just kind of happened, in large part due to C7 and his early parts mod, most of which are now stock.

[bsalis]

The Aeris 4A is terrible.

Why not try a good SSTO Spaceplane that can be launched with MechJeb? Such that you just need to get it off the runway, let MJ do the rest, and just work the engines yourself.

[rodion_herrera]

Spaceplanes were never really planned to be part of the game. They just kind of happened, in large part due to C7 and his early parts mod, most of which are now stock.

I find that statement funny considering that some members here feel that those who fly SSTO spaceplanes are "adept", "expert" or "pro" at KSP.

[lyndonguitar]

Rockets are always better than spaceplanes, Spaceplanes and SSTO's are useless for now no matter what you do because there's no career mode yet.

The only advantage of a SSTO Spaceplane is reusability, and pin-point atmospheric reentry-landing. In KSP sandbox you don't worry about costs yet and you can splashdown anywhere on the planet, there's no difference. so Rockets are always better for now.

Once career mode kicks in, That's when you'll see the awesome importance of SSTOs. Have a contract on deploying a satellite in Low Kerbin Orbit?? Don't worry! just use your existing SSTO in the KSC hangar, only pay for the fuel, but get the full reward! its harder to manuever and payload capacity is reduced, nevertheless it is a very efficient vessel.

Right now most people won't be motivated to build Planes, because there's no real reason to.

That's why my most wanted feature on KSP now is Career Mode

[samstarman5]

It should be noted that aerodynamics were only engineered to the point of just handling ballistic trajectories in the game. It should also be noted that Squad is actually challenging itself to change that to allow for much better glide and lift physics. Yes, planes were not planned for, as KSP was born to be just a rocketry simulator. Let this serve as an example that nothing planned is set in stone.

I wouldn't go so far as to say most people aren't motivated to build planes. I, myself, am a fan of ballistics, but I still catch myself wondering what some wings might do. I look forward to seeing what Squad delivers with their aerodynamics patch, as I am sure it will change how we approach the game, even if we do not build planes. It won't change the rocketry portion at its essence, so there is no reason to fear its coming.

[deskjetser]

I really don't get what the fuss is about, all my planes work great.

Granted there is more to know than when building a rocket, but it literally isn't rocket science. (Crappy joke there )

And I hate to be putting a downer on the stock aircraft, but they ain't designed with care, or pilot friendliness in mind.

I'm going to try make some videos sometime about everything I've learned to do with planes since 0.15, I hope I can share my success with everyone.

[rodion_herrera]

...all my planes work great.

Done re-entry and pinpoint landings with it, too?

[deskjetser]

Done re-entry and pinpoint landings with it, too?

Of course, I only ever flat spin if I'm hammering at the controls, other than that, all my planes come down as steady as a rock...

[rodion_herrera]

Of course, I only ever flat spin if I'm hammering at the controls, other than that, all my planes come down as steady as a rock...

My planes come down steady as a rock only if:

a) I have SAS on

I jettison something at the back (i.e. rocket engines, which I don't think counts as staging because the decoupling happens after re-entry) that makes the nose pull up (due to imbalance from having little fuel left). Are you using some kind of fuel management system/balancer mod?

And you said "steady as a rock"...well have you successfully flown said rock back to a nice, smooth, runway landing at Kerbin?

Edited May 26, 2013 by rodion_herrera

[deskjetser]

My planes come down steady as a rock only if:

a) I have SAS on

I jettison something at the back that makes the nose pull up (due to imbalance from having little fuel left). Are you using some kind of fuel management system/balancer mod?

And you said "steady as a rock"...well have you successfully flown said rock back to a nice, smooth, runway landing at Kerbin?

I use no mods for my planes, rarely MechJeb for assents, but all stock parts other than that. And yes the 'rock' can return to the runway.

[bsalis]

Rockets are always better than spaceplanes, Spaceplanes and SSTO's are useless for now no matter what you do because there's no career mode yet.

Well, some (many?) just find them fun. I for one am having fun exploring Laythe and planting flags on every island, in one craft. Not very practical with rockets/capsules. Even if you did, it's not quite the same experience...

Sadly, as good of a space sim as this game is, it is seriously lacking in the area of aerodynamic flight.

You just learn and understand it, then build craft to work with it, like everything else in the game.

[rodion_herrera]

I use no mods for my planes, rarely MechJeb for assents, but all stock parts other than that. And yes the 'rock' can return to the runway.

Hmmm great. I guess it's back to the old drawing board for me

[Spica]

If you really cannot stand the aerodynamics of the stock game, I recommend installing Ferram Aerospace Research. It fixes up the drag model so planes and rockets fly like they should.

[rodion_herrera]

If you really cannot stand the aerodynamics of the stock game, I recommend installing Ferram Aerospace Research. It fixes up the drag model so planes and rockets fly like they should.

If flying "regular", in-atmosphere designs, yes, I like FAR. But if you attempt to do any extended operations above 23k meters with FAR, my issues with ascent and re-entry with SSTO spaceplanes actually WORSEN. Well, that was mostly with 0.19, and I have yet to really see if a v0.20 specific FAR will fix that.

[leax256]

I can build working planes left and right, I just cant seem to build many working spaceplanes.

[Payload]

I can build working planes left and right, I just cant seem to build many working spaceplanes.

Space planes specifically are really hard to build right now for a few reasons.

1. You must have a nose heavy space plane throughout all of its operations. Not just a little nose heavy either. A lot nose heavy. That makes getting them off the runway a nightmare. I tend to use 24-77s at the front to rotate the ship for lift off. One could use sepratrons as JATO's I guess.

2. They actually have to have more dV by a lot than a normal rocket. Because drag is calculated by mass right now, the drag, even at high altitude, is way off the mark.

3. The wing's lift rating is poor. I really don't understand this one. Every stock wing in the game has poor lift. So you need to use a crap ton of them to get any lift and then your vehicle doesn't look correct.

I have started using B9 shuttle parts as the upper stage to my rockets without wings. Turns out I have plenty of fuel to do a tail sitter landing. I will have a shuttle even if the game doesn't want me to have one.

Tips.

The B9 wings are much better but still lack lift for size. Try those, though they are admittedly buggy sometimes.

Tac fuel balancer. Get it. If your craft doesn't have a heavy nose at re-entry you're gonna have a bad time.

When re-entering, ride the prograde marker until you are well within the plane's flight parameters.

If you can't fly the plane around by hand at sea level then you probably won't have enough control authority to pull off the ascent.

Be nose heavy! The lift indicator should be at the back of the COM indicator. Not inside of it! Behind it. Maybe touching the back of the COM indicator.

[AmpsterMan]

For me Spaceplanes have been more of a challenge for challenge's sake. Still some people hereabouts have had great success with spaceplanes as they currently are.

[Frostiken]

If you really cannot stand the aerodynamics of the stock game, I recommend installing Ferram Aerospace Research. It fixes up the drag model so planes and rockets fly like they should.

FAR gave me more flyable spaceplanes in exchange for unpredictably uncontrollable rockets. After the third time my originally stable rocket began doing backflips for no reason every time I moved from the velocity vector I dumped that mod like a bad habit.

[bsalis]

Not just a little nose heavy either. A lot nose heavy. That makes getting them off the runway a nightmare.

Not always. If the CoM is way to the back, then yes, for anti-flipping, very nose heavy is what you need. However if you have the CoM in the middle of the craft and the control surfaces far behind and in front, then it does not need to be so nose heavy.