My first attempt at planes. Should I try with B9 or stick with stock to start?

[skendzie]

Suggestions? I have KW Rocketry and a whole bunch of other mods for my rockets, but this is my first plane mod. I realized after I downloaded it I started all stock parts for my rockets, then went to mods for more parts. Should I do the same making planes?

Also, quick question and request. Can someone post a screen shot of their well flying space plane in the construction hanger? I really want to see what proper center of mass/thrust/and lift look like. ESPECIALLY lift to mass relation.

Thanks so much!

[Syhrus]

Stock parts are pretty hard, but doable. Some people like to use FAR, which can be found here: http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/ferram-aerospace-research/

I haven't tried it yet, so I'm not sure if it actually has any parts, but check out my series if you get stuck

[Brofessional]

The center of lift and center of mass should be pretty much centered, but you want to account for the fact that the center of mass will move as fuel is consumed. It's important to have lots of ram-air intakes so your engine(s) can keep operating even at very high altitudes and you can get to near-orbital velocity before switching on the rockets. It also helps to use only a single jet engine so if it flames out you don't go into a spin.

This design is very stable, but it uses ion engines instead of rockets, which I wouldn't advise doing on your first attempt.

This one is stable going up, and uses rockets making it much easier to get into orbit, but it's unstable upon re-entry. It takes off vertically from launch clamps and lands with parachutes/legs.

[skendzie]

Stock parts are pretty hard, but doable. Some people like to use FAR, which can be found here: http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/ferram-aerospace-research/

I haven't tried it yet, so I'm not sure if it actually has any parts, but check out my series if you get stuck

Hmm, I see. I'm afraid it'll mess up my rockets though

And wow! Awesome ship. Thanks for the advise!

[Nao]

I would advise starting with a simple stock plane and then go with mods. B9 is awesome but it would be easy to overdesign the ship to look awesome just to notice it doesn't fly well. That's why getting around basics in mostly stock parts would be nice.

Some tips:

Center of Mass should be just in front of the Center of Lift. The more CoM is in front of CoL the more stable the plane will be but more nose heavy requiring stronger elevator controls. I usually put CoL inside CoM sphere.

Thrust should be mostly in line with CoM like in rockets, KSP jest engines are very strong getting them not aligned with CoM will make flying hard.

For CoL its not really that important to be on the CoM-thrust line but i wouldn't advise placing it too high or low.

You can check how the plane will handle in SPH by taking the whole plane and [shift] rotating it several degrees while having CoM and CoL visible. If the CoL does not drift before CoM, the plane should be stable.

Watch out for massless parts and other mass changes, they can upset the balance. Namely the "small gear bay" part has no mass in flight but has mass in SPH so set the balance before placing the wheels on the plane. It's good practice to have fuel tanks close to CoM too.

Due to how control surfaces have more lift at high Angles of Attack, its good to place them behind CoM so that the plane is stable at high AoA.

One more thing about stability is intakes. Radial intakes can generate a lot of drag, so if placed off center or with no symmetry (ie at top for example) can make the ship unstable at higher speeds.

One lats thing is Gear. to properly liftoff you can either have main gear close to CoM so that its possible for control surfaces to rotate the plane on the runway, or just make front wheels higher so the plane has natural nose up on runway.

Cheers!

[g_audio]

I would advise starting with a simple stock plane and then go with mods. B9 is awesome but it would be easy to overdesign the ship to look awesome just to notice it doesn't fly well. That's why getting around basics in mostly stock parts would be nice.

Some tips:

Center of Mass should be just in front of the Center of Lift. The more CoM is in front of CoL the more stable the plane will be but more nose heavy requiring stronger elevator controls. I usually put CoL inside CoM sphere.

Thrust should be mostly in line with CoM like in rockets, KSP jest engines are very strong getting them not aligned with CoM will make flying hard.

For CoL its not really that important to be on the CoM-thrust line but i wouldn't advise placing it too high or low.

You can check how the plane will handle in SPH by taking the whole plane and [shift] rotating it several degrees while having CoM and CoL visible. If the CoL does not drift before CoM, the plane should be stable.

Watch out for massless parts and other mass changes, they can upset the balance. Namely the "small gear bay" part has no mass in flight but has mass in SPH so set the balance before placing the wheels on the plane. It's good practice to have fuel tanks close to CoM too.

Due to how control surfaces have more lift at high Angles of Attack, its good to place them behind CoM so that the plane is stable at high AoA.

One more thing about stability is intakes. Radial intakes can generate a lot of drag, so if placed off center or with no symmetry (ie at top for example) can make the ship unstable at higher speeds.

One lats thing is Gear. to properly liftoff you can either have main gear close to CoM so that its possible for control surfaces to rotate the plane on the runway, or just make front wheels higher so the plane has natural nose up on runway.

Cheers!

Listen ... You don't know how much this means to me. I have been playing KSP for a little while now and have never been able to get working and stable plane designs down consistently. It was like a miracle whenever it would happen. I looked at so many different tutorials as well. Whatever you said and however you worded it finally made the light in my head go off. Now I'm happily flying my own designs.

Now I can have fun with all those B9 toys.

[skendzie]

Awesome, I think I'll follow your advise and stick with stock parts for now and not get too crazy changing all my aerodynamics. Now I'll see what I can create, muhaha

[the_bT]

This is one of my early space planes:

I found pitch control to be extremely important in atmospheric flight. If you build your elevator like I did, it will not act on roll inputs, which improves handling a lot. Good pitch control means you can get away with more distance between COM and COL. That will make things easier on reentry as your COM will most likely have shifted by then.

[superm18]

STOCK!!!

[Nao]

Listen ... You don't know how much this means to me. I have been playing KSP for a little while now and have never been able to get working and stable plane designs down consistently. It was like a miracle whenever it would happen. I looked at so many different tutorials as well. Whatever you said and however you worded it finally made the light in my head go off. Now I'm happily flying my own designs.

Now I can have fun with all those B9 toys.

Glad to help There a lot more quirks and shady kerbal physics to add but it's great you managed to get things off the ground, Good Luck!

[MR4Y]

Even though it doesn't matter much fir aerodynamics, I try to make planes as strealined and closest looking to real world planes as possible.

[OneRedBlock]

STOCK!!!

Your signature lies. KSP's just as hard with mods than without.

[Deadpangod3]

I would advise starting with a simple stock plane and then go with mods. B9 is awesome but it would be easy to overdesign the ship to look awesome just to notice it doesn't fly well. That's why getting around basics in mostly stock parts would be nice.

Some tips:

Center of Mass should be just in front of the Center of Lift. The more CoM is in front of CoL the more stable the plane will be but more nose heavy requiring stronger elevator controls. I usually put CoL inside CoM sphere.

Thrust should be mostly in line with CoM like in rockets, KSP jest engines are very strong getting them not aligned with CoM will make flying hard.

For CoL its not really that important to be on the CoM-thrust line but i wouldn't advise placing it too high or low.

You can check how the plane will handle in SPH by taking the whole plane and [shift] rotating it several degrees while having CoM and CoL visible. If the CoL does not drift before CoM, the plane should be stable.

Watch out for massless parts and other mass changes, they can upset the balance. Namely the "small gear bay" part has no mass in flight but has mass in SPH so set the balance before placing the wheels on the plane. It's good practice to have fuel tanks close to CoM too.

Due to how control surfaces have more lift at high Angles of Attack, its good to place them behind CoM so that the plane is stable at high AoA.

One more thing about stability is intakes. Radial intakes can generate a lot of drag, so if placed off center or with no symmetry (ie at top for example) can make the ship unstable at higher speeds.

One lats thing is Gear. to properly liftoff you can either have main gear close to CoM so that its possible for control surfaces to rotate the plane on the runway, or just make front wheels higher so the plane has natural nose up on runway.

Cheers!

Now I know why 99.99999999999999999999999999% of the planes I build don't get off the ground

[rhoark]

Get Ferram ASAP and avoid the pain of redesigning for it later. Why optimize your designs for broken aerodynamics when you don't have to?

[rhoark]

Your signature lies. KSP's just as hard with mods than without.

Anyone who thinks stock is the gold standard for difficulty needs to play with Ferram, Deadly Reentry, RemoteTech, and Ironcross all together.

[skendzie]

Get Ferram ASAP and avoid the pain of redesigning for it later. Why optimize your designs for broken aerodynamics when you don't have to?

Is it going into the Stock version in the future?

[superm18]

Your signature lies. KSP's just as hard with mods than without.

no it's not a lie...i DO play pure stock and i DO play it with skill

[rhoark]

They say they're going to change aerodynamics. I wouldn't expect it in stock soon, but that's beside the point - stock is not the gold standard; it's broken as hell: nosecones increasing drag, infiniglide, intake spamming, aerobrake spamming, etc...

[skendzie]

I see. Do you think my rockets would maintain their performance (for better or worse) or would the mod change things too much?

[theflyingfish]

FAR generally decreases air resistance to a realistic level (stock makes the air as thick as pudding), so decreases the amount of dV required for launch. The only problem is that rockets are generally unstable, so you sometimes need to baby them up to altitude, to reduce flipping.

In others words, KSC-to-Orbit is marginally harder to fly, but requires less fuel.

And if you have too much trouble with designing things, just post a picture of your rocket or plane on the FAR thread. Ferram is always happy to help.

Edited June 3, 2013 by theflyingfish
I am addicted to editing. FEELS SO GOOD.

[Darren9]

I found Taverio-s-Pizza-and-Aerospace-v1-4-1 much more useful than B9 Aerospace, there's a massive array of wing and control surface sizes that make balancing a small/medium craft a lot easier.

[cesarcurado]

Start with stock so you get the hang of it.

Once you have built some skill try some mods to expand that ability.

Edited June 3, 2013 by cesarcurado

[SalmonellaDingDong]

I found Taverio-s-Pizza-and-Aerospace-v1-4-1 much more useful than B9 Aerospace, there's a massive array of wing and control surface sizes that make balancing a small/medium craft a lot easier.

The two combined are awesome. Just make sure to backup your stock turbojet engines so the TV aerospace pack doesn't ruin them.

OP: center of lift right behind center of mass. Adjust forward/back as needed for stability.

I saw that someone posted a picture with the center of lift right inside the center of mass. That's generally not how you want to do it, especially with the center of mass moving back during flight.

Do this: