Earth V: An Apollo-Style Rocket

[Jm419]

Now, I know everyone has built one of these, but I figured it was time for me to throw my hat in the ring. With some inspiration from Sal_Vager's Apollo 15 mission, I was inspired to revisit my Duna-capable Jupiter series. The Jupiters, when built, were the tallest vehicles ever launched from the KSC (in my own game), and when I designed the lifter, I basically expanded on the Mercury VI I've built in the past.

Here's the Mercury VI; my first Mun-landing-and-return capable rocket.

You can see the general idea; the larger tanks drop off first, and the smaller inner tanks burned alongside the central stage. Once we drop the initial stages, we repeat the process higher up the vehicle. It's fairly stable, because of its size, and it was a good rocket at the end of the day. A variant serves as my low-Kerbin orbiter.

To compare, here's the Jupiter I, older sister of (and only slightly different from) the ship that went to Duna.

You can see my general design process here. See the similarities between the Jupiter and Mercury vehicle, if you ignore the payload? The Jupiter is essentially the Mercury, but stretched. This, naturally, led to some problems; while the Mercury suffered from some minor stability issues, these were amplified in the Jupiter. Don't get me wrong - the Jupiter's a good ship; you just need to baby it during launch.

If anyone's interested, the craft files for these are available. (The Jupiter V is the last iteration of the Jupiter series; it's definitely Duna capable, it just has a few more bells and whistles than the I, which is pictured here, or the III which went to Duna).

Mercury VI: http://www./view/1ymbv6g8a1yh164/Mercury_VI.craft

Jupiter V: http://www./view/a4cyf69wymf21m5/Jupiter_V.craft

The Jupiter series was my Apollo-style launcher - initially. Then, I chose to do a redesign of the launcher and lander so they were more faithful to the original Saturn V. Sal_Vager put together a phenomenal launcher, with proper engine arrangements and all, but I wanted mine to be a bit heavier, beefier. This doesn't use part clipping, mod parts, or anything like that. It's pure vanilla stock, so everyone can use it without worrying about it. It's a good looking launcher, without strut abuse, and I think it's one of the best stock Saturn V replicas available.

Enough talk. On to the photos. A quick note here: these photos were taken during 3 separate flights. A demonstration launch was performed, and photographed. Then, my Apollo 11 was photographed starting about at the Mun landing. My Apollo 12 flight, completed today, filled in the rest of the gaps, so I think I have a pretty decent photographic record of how this thing stages, and how it looks in flight.

Here's the vehicle and its stats on the pad. Fear not if the details are hard to see; there are plenty of photos further down in the thread of the upper stages. Note the low part count; I did that on purpose so even folks with lower end computers could use it. It runs pretty well on my own Mac, so I would think that almost everyone could use this.

Some images of the vehicle in flight. I think this is an aesthetically pleasing launcher - few struts, and nice clean lines. Note the prototypical arrangement; 5 Mainsails standing in for the Saturn V's 5 F1s. The 1st stage boosts the ship to about 1100 m/s at something like 30 km altitude at a 15 degree graduated gravity turn (so 45* at 30 km).

This is the second stage, powered by 5 Poodles in place of the Saturn V's 5 J-2s (Thanks, Rune!). This stage is almost capable of orbit; you could probably get it to orbit if you wanted it for an interplanetary flight, or something. We're talking, like, periapsis shows up just as this stage cuts out. It's really close - just like the real thing; I think one of the Apollo flight's second stages managed to make orbit.

Firing away the escape tower a few seconds into the S-II burn, like the Saturn V. The escape tower is fully functional, and during early testing, saved the prime crew multiple times (you know how it is, testing a new heavy lifter - the first five launches are disasters until you fix the staging, balance the fuel, make sure the symmetry works, and put more struts on). It's set up to the Abort key in the Action groups - this maneuver, of discarding the escape tower once we clear the atmosphere, however, is normal staging.

Discarding the second stage. Notice the Poodle on the third stage as well; the Saturn V used a single J-2 here, so I matched engines once again.

The debris from the docking maneuver (which I apparently neglected to take photos of... still, it's easy enough, and all laid out in the staging) can easily be directed into a crash landing into the Mun, to dispose of it safely. (Assuming there isn't anyone under it... a four ton fuel tank at 800 m/s has some momentum behind it).

Here's the actual payload for you, along with a continuing mission report.

Lander has full landing and docking lights.

Crew transfer.

Apollo 11, you are go for undocking.

The lander in all her glory. It has full science equipment, as well as probe bodies, ASAS, and power generators in case you want to leave the descent stage behind as a permanent fixture on the landscape.

The CSM is a leftover from the Jupiter series, and has interplanetary fuel storage capacities. What you see is what you get, here. Three radial parachutes are mounted on the CM.

The ascent stage departs the surface. The points in the background are the descent stage and the flag post. This is probably the biggest departure from the Apollo hardware with the radial rockets on the ascent stage, but it came down to fitting an ascent engine in without making the lander ridiculously tall. I think they're a fair compromise.

The docking lights make even nightside docking easy.

Once all the remaining fuel is transferred to the CSM, and the crew are all settled in, the RCS thrusters can bring the ship down to just under orbital velocity, where the spent ascent stage is undocked...

...and descends back to the Mun. Here, we're travelling at about 575 m/s, less than a hundred meters up.

After that, all that's left is a relatively easy burn home.

After passing over the KSC and waving to the folks at home, just disconnect the SM, and wait for the reentry heat.

On this particular flight, we came in at just about 3200 m/s before slowing to atmospheric drag.

Three chutes, just like the real thing.

And splashdown. Home at last.

It's a real treat to fly, and I think it's one of the best looking stock Saturn V replicas out there. It's a big powerful lifter that's nicely balanced and flies really nicely when the action key 1 is hit to stop gimbaling on the outside engines in both the first and second stages. I've not yet tested whether this is truly interplanetary or not, but that's coming up soon, once the rover variant gets tested properly.

Here's a nice image of my custom flag to close the thread.

The craft file, for anyone looking for an authentic Saturn V experience in KSP:

http://www./view/uv29qprczqmo54j/Earth_V.craft

Happy flying, everyone! Let me know what you think, and I'd love to see videos of your own flights with this rocket!

Edited June 9, 2013 by Jm419

[oblongship]

Amazing design, the only problem I have is that the engines in the first stage on launch keep flying off because it is overly wably.

[Jm419]

Amazing design, the only problem I have is that the engines in the first stage on launch keep flying off because it is overly wably.

No problem. The action key 1 is set up to shut down gimbaling on the outside engines. It doesn't always work, so try right clicking on an outside engine, and hitting 1. You should see "lock gimbal" switch to "free gimbal," meaning that the outer engines are locked and only the central engine and the fins are used for steering. I also typically throttle up to 90 or 95% immediately after the pad; if you lock your gimbals in the first few seconds after leaving the pad, the stability really clears itself up.

[Giggleplex777]

Why didn't you use the Skipper engines?

[Mulbin]

Apollo craft are the best!... and I really like your flag!

[Jm419]

Why didn't you use the Skipper engines?

This has been around in one form or another since .19.1. It was built before the Skipper was released, but the Poodles are almost too powerful as it is - the second stage can make orbit! Maybe one day, I'll revisit it with Skippers in place of the Poodles on the 2nd and 3rd stages.

Apollo craft are the best!... and I really like your flag!

Ah, the master speaks. Glad you like it - your craft are a lot of inspiration to this design, and your escape tower inspired me to build my own using the octagonal struts (before I saw Munbug, I was using the small liquid fuel tanks. )

Glad you like my flag! I thought it was classy but simple.

[TheWanderer]

and I think it's one of the best looking stock Saturn V replicas out there.

how many of the other saturn v versions have you looked at?

[Kerbal01]

Photos are borked

[Jm419]

Photos are borked

I see that. Not quite sure why that is. I'm certainly not giving photobucket money, if that's what they want. Lol. Lemme see what I can do.

[Giggleplex777]

This has been around in one form or another since .19.1. It was built before the Skipper was released, but the Poodles are almost too powerful as it is - the second stage can make orbit! Maybe one day, I'll revisit it with Skippers in place of the Poodles on the 2nd and 3rd stages

Make the first stage shorter and the second stage longer. Then, replace the Poodles on the second and third stage with the Skipper.

You can even replace the CSM's Poodle with the Skipper!

[Jm419]

Make the first stage shorter and the second stage longer. Then, replace the Poodles on the second and third stage with the Skipper.

You can even replace the CSM's Poodle with the Skipper!

I dunno, I like it the way it is. You can always download the file and experiment with it! Let me know how it works!

[IndieDev3D]

I see that. Not quite sure why that is. I'm certainly not giving photobucket money, if that's what they want. Lol. Lemme see what I can do.

Use imgur.com instead.

[TheTsar52]

What is this "Earth" you speak of?

[Jm419]

I'm trying to upload to imageshack right now, but it's a pain. I'll give imgur a shot.

Working on a solution to the problem, folks. Photos'll be back up shortly.

[Jm419]

What is this "Earth" you speak of?

I thought the name was appropriate, considering the names of the other vehicle families (Mercury, Jupiter, Neptune (not shown here)).

Photos are fixed.

[Wayfare]

I love this design. Asparagus may take the cake in fuel efficiency, but there's just something immensely satisfying about dropping stages stackwise instead of radially. Plus, it tends to bork out KSPs flight control mechanics less.

[TheTsar52]

I thought the name was appropriate, considering the names of the other vehicle families (Mercury, Jupiter, Neptune (not shown here)).

Photos are fixed.

I'm sorry, I've never heard of those planets. The only real planets are of are Moho, Eve, Kerbin, Duna, Jool, and Eeloo all orbiting aroun a star named Kerbol.

[Rune]

Actually, I find the use of Poodles very appropriate. The J-2 (yes, J-2, you almost got it right) was running on H2/LOX, and the KSP engine that most resembles its performance is the Poodle with its high isp. The original was a bit higher still (420s in vacuum, 1MN in thrust, and only 1.7mT), but all engines in KSP are a bit weaker in every aspect than RL designs.

Rune. There should be a dedicated subforum for Saturn V replicas or something, everybody has done one, me included.

[Jm419]

I love this design. Asparagus may take the cake in fuel efficiency, but there's just something immensely satisfying about dropping stages stackwise instead of radially. Plus, it tends to bork out KSPs flight control mechanics less.

I prefer my rockets to look like real rockets. The wider-than-tall asparagus stacks don't really do it for me - I prefer my rockets tall and powerful, even if it is less efficient. Since efficiency doesn't play a role in this game yet, I figured I'd go all-out, and build a rocket that could get my payload into orbit in style. Besides, NASA agrees with me - keeping the crew high up in the rocket, away from falling stages and debris is safer anyway. Thanks for your comment; I hope you enjoy the ship!

I'm sorry, I've never heard of those planets. The only real planets are of are Moho, Eve, Kerbin, Duna, Jool, and Eeloo all orbiting aroun a star named Kerbol.

Fair enough. Let's just say they're named after ancient Kroman gods, then.

Actually, I find the use of Poodles very appropriate. The J-2 (yes, J-2, you almost got it right) was running on H2/LOX, and the KSP engine that most resembles its performance is the Poodle with its high isp. The original was a bit higher still (420s in vacuum, 1MN in thrust, and only 1.7mT), but all engines in KSP are a bit weaker in every aspect than RL designs.

Rune. There should be a dedicated subforum for Saturn V replicas or something, everybody has done one, me included.

Glad to hear the Poodles are the right choice. I think I might produce a variant with the Skippers - they seem like awesome engines from the one flight I've used them in - but this ship is going for Kerbalized accuracy, and if the Poodles are the right choice, then that's what they'll stay.

If everyone has done one, there's a reason. The Lunar Orbit Rendezvous is far more efficient than direct ascent, and while it might be less efficient in KSP to go to the Mun with a MOR style launcher than a direct ascent, once you start talking interplanetary, the efficiency really starts to make a difference... provided you can get it into space. And heck - who doesn't like big rockets?

Thanks for the comments, everyone. I see that it's had thirty plus downloads already - is everyone enjoying it? I'd love to see Youtube footage of someone else flying it - see what you make of it.

[Wayfare]

Well, I took your rocket out for a spin

We went to the Mun and got back safe. It was a very interesting ride! As you did for me, I'll draw comparisons to my Munshine V at various points. There were some pretty interesting design differences in spite of the overall great similarity.

Liftoff! I had some trouble with the Earth V on the pad. It really doesn't like to sit in its clamps for too long. I tried to timewarp into daylight but the rocket had just started oscillating (ASAS was on, that's why) and bent like a noodle. I'm happy to report your escape tower works fine I aborted to the VAB and placed the launch clamps up higher, making it a bit more stable. All in all though, the best approach seemed to be to just launch as quickly as possible.

I took a fairy gentle gravity turn, allowing the Poodles to work their magic in the thinnest part of the atmosphere. With an apoapsis of 95km achieved, the second stage still had almost half its fuel left! I wouldn't be surprised if that stage could push us a fair way to the Mun. Anyway, I used the second stage to nearly circularize, then finished off with the third stage.

After TMI, about 20% fuel left. More than my Munshine does, and the Earth is pushing a heavier payload to boot. There's oodles of fuel in this thing

Derp! After separating the CSM I realize there will be a bit left in between the craft. Thinking the third stage to be inert at this point, Wilbro went on EVA to headbutt the offending debris out of the way. Only later did I realize that the lander has a couple of probe cores and could have rotated away from the debris. Oh well.

Extracting the MM with the engine shroud still on the CSM. I realize now that in this configuration, the stack separator is sort of redundant. One could simply undock the MM from the large decoupler, perform TD&E, then jettison the decoupler with no need for debris-avoiding maneuvers.

Course correction and Mun capture burn consumed about 25% of the CSM's fuel.

Landing with the Poodle is a breeze compared to my LV-909 powered lander! The fuel load seems well balanced in the landing stage. I flew a fairly steep descent and was left with a bit over 10% fuel.

Hehe

Ascent from the Mun took me by surprise. Accustomed to my ascent stage, which has half the thrust of the Earth V's, I throttled to 100% and staged. The ascent stage spun wildly out of control and nearly crashed! Turns out she's very, very slightly unbalanced (probably by the small ladder). With such an enormous TWR and the engines close to the COM, she really wants to spin out. Fortunately the ASAS is more than capable of holding her steady. I found out that using a lower amount of thrust and rotating only with the engines throttled down to 0%, I could control the ascent stage quite well. She reached orbit with about half her fuel left.

Some more fuel shots. By pumping the remaining ascent stage fuel into the CSM, I was left with an impressive 60% of my CSM fuel after making the burn back to Kerbin.

We came home in the dark. Didn't have a lot of say in the matter as I didn't want to circularize back around Kerbin first. Mission success!

So let's have some observations.

--Earth V's lifter is a beautiful beast of a machine. A bit of a hazard on the pad and definitely not something you want to twist around wildly, but she launches very majestically. I loved the slow climb during the first 10km or so. It really is an immensely powerful rocket that needs to be handled with care. A bit more struttage in the first stage would not go amiss.

--The second stage seems rather overpowered, though it does its job very well as a result. I think you could get away with a smaller first stage to get more mileage out of the second.

--There's a lot of vertical strutting in the third stage and the payload. I'm not sure all of that is needed, but it is very rigid!

--I think the stack separator can go. This would make TD&E a simpler operation.

--Love, love, love landing with the Poodle. As I said over in my thread, I do think it is too heavy and too powerful, but boy does it make landing easy! Very forgiving. It usually takes me a few tries to work out any lander's descent profile but the Earth V lander set down fine on the first try.

--The ascent stage is very twitchy. Well, ascent stages usually are But I think with four instead of eight radial engines she'd be easier to control under power.

--Overall the fuel efficiency of this craft is amazing. I dumped tons of fuel with the second stage and brought the CSM back with her tank 60% full. With some modifications I would not be surprised if this could make it to Duna and back.

--It was great to get hands-on experience with the ways in which you tackled each challenge in this build differently from me. Definitely gave me a bunch of ideas!

Thanks for a great ride on a great rocket!

[Commander Zoom]

Been away from KSP this week - came back and found this rocket linked from the Munshine thread. Very nice work! I like your take on the concept.

[Jm419]

Liftoff! I had some trouble with the Earth V on the pad. It really doesn't like to sit in its clamps for too long. I tried to timewarp into daylight but the rocket had just started oscillating (ASAS was on, that's why) and bent like a noodle. I'm happy to report your escape tower works fine I aborted to the VAB and placed the launch clamps up higher, making it a bit more stable. All in all though, the best approach seemed to be to just launch as quickly as possible.

Very true. I should move the clamps up. I typically don't spend much time on the pad, so it's not really an issue, but for some reason, the stability has significantly decreased since .19 and I'm not entirely sure why. That's the problem with transferring a ship between versions, I guess.

I took a fairy gentle gravity turn, allowing the Poodles to work their magic in the thinnest part of the atmosphere. With an apoapsis of 95km achieved, the second stage still had almost half its fuel left! I wouldn't be surprised if that stage could push us a fair way to the Mun. Anyway, I used the second stage to nearly circularize, then finished off with the third stage.

That's better than I usually do. Nicely done - I may have to rethink my gravity turn.

After TMI, about 20% fuel left. More than my Munshine does, and the Earth is pushing a heavier payload to boot. There's oodles of fuel in this thing

Ah, yeah... that initially came from an underpowered first stage. The first iteration of this ship had a much less powerful first and third stage, so the CSM engine was used for part of the TMI burn (like the last 200 m/s). When I added more fuel to the third stage, the first stage couldn't lift it nearly as well, so I chucked more fuel on there as well. The nice thing about your first stage is that you can put as much fuel on it as you want, provided you can get off the pad. You're not taking it with you, so you might as well put a lot of fuel on. Of course, a more powerful first stage left more wiggle room in the third stage... and I liked the extra fuel in the CSM, so I just left it.

Derp! After separating the CSM I realize there will be a bit left in between the craft. Thinking the third stage to be inert at this point, Wilbro went on EVA to headbutt the offending debris out of the way. Only later did I realize that the lander has a couple of probe cores and could have rotated away from the debris. Oh well.

I occasionally will fly almost the whole mission from the CSM, including the docking maneuvers. The ASAS on the LM really helps in those cases, because you don't have to fight the drift (I don't think... does the ASAS still switch off when you switch stages?)

Extracting the MM with the engine shroud still on the CSM. I realize now that in this configuration, the stack separator is sort of redundant. One could simply undock the MM from the large decoupler, perform TD&E, then jettison the decoupler with no need for debris-avoiding maneuvers.

Yeah, I just didn't think of undocking the decoupler. Besides, I kinda like that it's automatic - but I'll tell you what I'm thinking. I may decide to switch the stack separator for an inverted decoupler, so the staging is the same, but there's only one piece of debris rather than two.

Landing with the Poodle is a breeze compared to my LV-909 powered lander! The fuel load seems well balanced in the landing stage. I flew a fairly steep descent and was left with a bit over 10% fuel.

Good! Glad to hear the design transitions well. The bottom stage is nice to fly, because I think it's perfectly balanced.

Ascent from the Mun took me by surprise. Accustomed to my ascent stage, which has half the thrust of the Earth V's, I throttled to 100% and staged. The ascent stage spun wildly out of control and nearly crashed! Turns out she's very, very slightly unbalanced (probably by the small ladder). With such an enormous TWR and the engines close to the COM, she really wants to spin out. Fortunately the ASAS is more than capable of holding her steady. I found out that using a lower amount of thrust and rotating only with the engines throttled down to 0%, I could control the ascent stage quite well. She reached orbit with about half her fuel left.

Yeah, yeah... I didn't mention it above, because I didn't think to do so, but the ascent stage should only be flown at about half throttle. Which is dumb; the eight engines aren't really necessary.

Some more fuel shots. By pumping the remaining ascent stage fuel into the CSM, I was left with an impressive 60% of my CSM fuel after making the burn back to Kerbin.

The CSM is actually interplanetary capable, albeit with a refueling in Kerbin orbit before the departure burn.

We came home in the dark. Didn't have a lot of say in the matter as I didn't want to circularize back around Kerbin first. Mission success!

Whoo hoo!!

So let's have some observations.

--Earth V's lifter is a beautiful beast of a machine. A bit of a hazard on the pad and definitely not something you want to twist around wildly, but she launches very majestically. I loved the slow climb during the first 10km or so. It really is an immensely powerful rocket that needs to be handled with care. A bit more struttage in the first stage would not go amiss.

I should really move the clamps up a bit. I have noticed a glitch that, if you go immediately to the pad instead of through the VAB, some of the lowest struts on the first stage break. They're still there, just broken and not attached to anything.

The slow climb can be a bit of a pain, but you get an idea of how much the engines are pushing when it takes so long to claw its way out of the atmosphere.

--The second stage seems rather overpowered, though it does its job very well as a result. I think you could get away with a smaller first stage to get more mileage out of the second.

I discussed this above, a bit - the second stage isn't overpowered so much as the first stage, as you diagnose. That was kind of a design choice, and partially an accident - one of the Apollo S-IIs made Earth orbit, I think, so the stage should be almost orbit capable. The other nice thing is that you can keep the second stage with you for orbital refueling before departing to Duna, or whatever. Still, as I talked about a bit higher up, the ship does have a remarkably powerful first stage, which could be toned down for a Mun flight.

--There's a lot of vertical strutting in the third stage and the payload. I'm not sure all of that is needed, but it is very rigid!

You're talking about the three sets struts from the second stage to the third stage and payload? Believe me, they're definitely necessary unless you like flying a cooked spaghetti noodle.

--I think the stack separator can go. This would make TD&E a simpler operation.

What do you think about the inverted decoupler? I kinda like the automatic staging, in case I need to do it in a hurry. (Can't imagine why, but the flexibility is nice).

--Love, love, love landing with the Poodle. As I said over in my thread, I do think it is too heavy and too powerful, but boy does it make landing easy! Very forgiving. It usually takes me a few tries to work out any lander's descent profile but the Earth V lander set down fine on the first try.

This is the first lander I've built that does use the Poodle for the descent stage, and I really like it. Sure, it's not the best engine, but it's short, fat, and powerful enough for a moderately sized lander like this one. I'm glad it worked so well for you.

--The ascent stage is very twitchy. Well, ascent stages usually are But I think with four instead of eight radial engines she'd be easier to control under power.

I definitely agree. I might have to revise that for my Mk II.

--Overall the fuel efficiency of this craft is amazing. I dumped tons of fuel with the second stage and brought the CSM back with her tank 60% full. With some modifications I would not be surprised if this could make it to Duna and back.

That's exactly where it's going next. It'll be fun to see how she does. And the fuel... yeah, it's a fuel hog. But, at the same time, it's nice to fly without worrying about fuel - at all.

--It was great to get hands-on experience with the ways in which you tackled each challenge in this build differently from me. Definitely gave me a bunch of ideas!

Same here. I'll have to revisit my solution to the TD&E based on your suggestion, and the ascent stage as well. I can use the left-over parts for - you guessed it - MOAR struts.

Thanks for a great ride on a great rocket!

Same to you - and thanks for such a great writeup!

[Wayfare]

A double decoupler could certainly work, but in my mind the greatest issue is having a piece of debris between the MM and the CSM during TD&E. There are ways around this of course - tilt the MM up before decoupling, or do a bit of RCS translation, or use an EVA Kerbal (or even just the nose of the CSM) to bump the debris out of the way. You can even do away with decouplers altogether although that does leave the engine shroud stuck to the top of the MM. I'm told that reloading the scene by exiting to the space center will delete that bit, but that seems like a hassle. Launching with the MM docking port connected directly to the CSM decoupler strikes me as the cleanest fix. Given that TD&E is done only once you're on the long trip to your destination I don't see time as a critical factor.

[Jm419]

I'll have to show you what I'm talking about on my flight.

@ Cdr. Zoom:

Thanks for the comments! Let me know what you think of the ship.

[Wayfare]

I'll have to show you what I'm talking about on my flight.

Ooh wait I think I get it - you use a double decoupler, jettison the MM/third stage, flip the CSM around, dock, then jettison the CSM engine shroud with the second decoupler (or actually the first decoupler from the top down). Yes, that should work very nicely!