In the spirit of cooperation and competition

[hoojiwana]

You can already do that by editing the save file, it's not too hard.

[TheTriniFlyer]

I'll like to participate - with my 2 videos and astounding 2 subscribers! YouTube - TriniFSX

BTW Don't look at my KSP vid, I was only 12 when I recorded that, but now my voice is deeper (I'm now 13)

I think we could do a station orbiting Minmus, or a second idea, is an orbital science station around Kerbol, at perhaps 2000000 KM... It would be hard to reach but would show out ingenuity.

[leax256]

I'll like to participate - with my 2 videos and astounding 2 subscribers! YouTube - TriniFSX

BTW Don't look at my KSP vid, I was only 12 when I recorded that, but now my voice is deeper (I'm now 13)

I think we could do a station orbiting Minmus, or a second idea, is an orbital science station around Kerbol, at perhaps 2000000 KM... It would be hard to reach but would show out ingenuity.

I think it would be best to do kerban station->mün station->mün surface->mimnus station->mimnus surface->ect. till all bodies have them.

[leax256]

must keep thread/idea alive

[The Destroyer]

Yea keep this alive.

[Nauthy]

Welcome TheTriniFlyer! Don't worry about not having many videos or subs, we're here to show off what we can do

And thanks for keeping the thread alive when I'm not around, guys! Work has been hell lately, I haven't been able to get online as much as I'd like, but that'll be done with soon.

I think it would be best to do kerban station->mün station->mün surface->mimnus station->mimnus surface->ect. till all bodies have them.

I'm cool with this, it'll be a nice progression. Start off easy with a Kerbin station and work our way up to the harder builds.

I can't wait for the project to get started! Just a few more days until the cut-off date. When I get a chance I'll randomize everyone's names and put 'em in a list, so we can figure out the order. Let me know if you want to be somewhere specific, I know some people have already stated their preferences. Also, does anyone want to be first? The core will be a very important part, so it's cool if you don't want the responsibility Though somebody will end up first anyways, I just want to make sure everyone's happy.

[leax256]

I don't have specifics for where I wan't to be, however I do have a fairly powerful pc 3.8ghz phenom 2, middle-->last would be better for me. for the saake of those with slower Pc's

[hoojiwana]

So with 0.21 confirmed for breaking saves, and it likely coming out in a matter of weeks, I suggest we hold off on starting this until it is out. That way nothing will be lost, and we shouldn't have to worry about multiple ASAS wobbling things to pieces. That also gives us time to properly organise the order of people and to get everyone on the same page with regards to how we will do this.

Better to not have to rush.

[TheTriniFlyer]

Hello, well, I should say that I'll like to be very early or last as I won't be able to participate from the 15th of July till the 3rd of August, (personal reasons). Also I have a good processor and more RAM than 32bit KSP allows so I don't mind going near last. Also (it's up to you not me) can I possibly be assigned to a station not a base please Thank you...

But if my dates conflict with the schedule I don't mind if I'm un-included, I won't be offended.

[Nauthy]

So with 0.21 confirmed for breaking saves, and it likely coming out in a matter of weeks, I suggest we hold off on starting this until it is out. That way nothing will be lost, and we shouldn't have to worry about multiple ASAS wobbling things to pieces. That also gives us time to properly organise the order of people and to get everyone on the same page with regards to how we will do this.

Better to not have to rush.

I agree. As much as I'd like to get started asap, it'd be best to wait 'till we can use the same save file for future projects. It'll be neat to have a game solely devoted to community builds.

We should still use Sunday as our cut-off date, but for letting people sign up. I'd love to let more people help us out, but we're getting pretty big and I'm worrying about the overall parts count.

TheTriniFlyer: As it stands right now, we'll be working on a station, so you're good there! We'll have to see when the project actually starts since we're waiting on 0.21. It'd be great to get you involved, but if you're cool with going towards the end then it shouldn't be a problem

[leax256]

BTW I think we should be allowed to use mods but only if they aren't part of the final ship. ie. giant KW rocketry tankes and engines for boosters.

[esinohio]

I'm good with or without mods here. I liked the idea though of this go around being as stock as possible on the final ship though. Maybe mechjeb just because after you have done docking a zillion times at some point you just want to flip a switch and tell the computer to dance like a little monkey and do it for you.

As for where I could go in the order of building I can easily handle being near to or at the end. Beefy machine that has never had an issue playing in windowed or full screen while I dig on the internet during those long burns. All setup with Fraps and a decent editing suite.

So after the next update how do we proceed? I've not done something like this with a group so I'm not sure how this will all work.

[leax256]

keeping thread on first page

[Rocketscience101]

I am in. Heres a link to my channel. (http://www.youtube.com/user/SpaceGuy177)

[Nauthy]

Welcome Rocketscience101 You made it in as the last guy, congrats!

I'd hate to say no to anybody else that wants to join, but we've got a good number of people as it is. We might even have to lower the part count to ~30 so the lag isn't atrocious towards the end of the build. Everyone's welcome to help us out with ideas and discussion, though!

I'm good with or without mods here. I liked the idea though of this go around being as stock as possible on the final ship though. Maybe mechjeb just because after you have done docking a zillion times at some point you just want to flip a switch and tell the computer to dance like a little monkey and do it for you.

As for where I could go in the order of building I can easily handle being near to or at the end. Beefy machine that has never had an issue playing in windowed or full screen while I dig on the internet during those long burns. All setup with Fraps and a decent editing suite.

So after the next update how do we proceed? I've not done something like this with a group so I'm not sure how this will all work.

I'd like to keep this build all stock parts, just for simplicity's sake. I'm totally cool with mods or MechJeb for helping to get the module into space and docked, as long as the final bit that gets attached is completely vanilla. So if you want to use MechJeb, make sure it's on the tug that'll get used for docking, not on the module itself. This should also be the case if anyone decides to build a tug as their module.

I think we should also get rid of all debris left behind by our launches, especially if there's rocket mods involved. Keep Kerbin Klear! wait, no, that's got a terrible acronym.....

As for how this'll proceed after the next update, here's what I'm thinkin'. I'd be happy to make a quick intro video before the first person goes (I intend to make a separate thread as well), to let the viewers know what's up. I will also get a randomized list going soon with the build order. Two lists, in fact, one for people that want to go earlier and one for the opposite. After that we'll start sending our modules up. Once one person is done, all they need to do is take the save file and send it to the next in line. There should be no need to edit the save file, especially if we can add ourselves as Kerbals in the Kerbonaut Complex, so it should be a simple process. At least, I hope

Edited July 8, 2013 by Nauthy

[Jm419]

All right; I think it's time to determine a final part count.

I believe that 300 parts is about the maximum we can do, so everyone can play with the final station as well as putting in their own part. My current space station in my own game is 314, and that's noticeably laggy - enough so that I'm considering putting up a refueling depot instead in .21. Remember, it gets ridiculously difficult to dock at a certain point, and everyone who has to deal with, say, more than 150 or 175 parts on approach is going to have a hard time if they're on a lower-power machine.

We can make a pretty awesome station for 300 parts, too. My station is chock full of lights and RCS thrusters, but if I removed those it'd probably be closer to 150 parts or so.

I'm going to go through the thread and count the number of folks who've signed on, and then we can divide the total number of parts by the number of users.

Ok, so my count gives me some 18 members. Even with a part limit of only 20, we end up with a final space station count of 360 parts, which is really pushing it in terms of lagginess on slower PCs.

That poses an interesting problem. Should we all work on the same station? If we do, our part counts will be harshly limited to 20 parts each, or less, and we'll still have huge lag issues. Unless we have a heck of a lot of coordination - ie, you build a docking ring, she'll do the fuel reserves, I'll handle the core, etc - we'll end up duplicating modules or adding useless modules. The other question is whether it's even really necessary for a space station to have eighteen separate modules. How could they each have a function?

Ultimately, I'm inclined to suggest we break into two teams. This allows us to have individual part counts higher, and allows more flexibility in station design. If we increase our part limit to thirty parts each, now, we can build a station at 270 parts fully loaded, which is on the lower end of the lag spectrum. Or, if we chose to do 25 parts, we can keep the parts down to, what, 225?

This is going to need some more thought; what's the minimum amount of parts we can have on a module without them all turning into some Hitchhiker modules ported together?

This is probably our only reasonable suggestion, considering we have a whopping eighteen (or so) members. We can do this in a few separate ways:

1.) Put two stations in the same orbit, 180 degrees apart.

2.) Put two stations in Kerbin orbit, one in a significantly higher orbit than the other.

3.) Put one station in Kerbin orbit, and another in orbit around another body, likely the Mun.

Option 1 has the most cause for concern; it would be pretty easy to mistake the stations for one another, and you might end up rendezvousing with the wrong one. Option 2 is probably the middle of the road option, albeit perhaps the least interesting for the viewers to watch. Option 3 is interesting in that it allows us to break up the members into, say, more and less experienced. We could even have people sign up for Mun Station or Kerbin Station, if it comes to that.

Of course - we could even split into three teams of six. Part count is still a concern, but not by much - six modules at 40 parts each gives us a final count of 240, just outside of the lag limits on most PCs - but then, we'd have the same issues, and the project would become more and more clouded with three stations in the Kerbin system. (Kerbin - Mun - Minmus, anyone?)

This is going to take some thought. What do people think? Should some people just sit this round out? Or is multiple stations the way to go? Or, ultimately, do we want to cut parts down to like 15 parts per person, to build a single, massive station?

Edited July 9, 2013 by Jm419

[esinohio]

I'm really game for just about anything here. After reading through JM419's post I think I would lean more toward options 2 or 3. Of course that is assuming we split into two or more teams for the build as JM419 suggested. If we went with #2, one station could maybe be a large fuel depot in low Kerbin orbit while the other could be a proper station up in a much higher orbit. Getting a fuel depot built can be challenging itself so it might not make it too easy on less experience people.

JM419's points about the part counts seem right on the mark to me. The idea of splitting up into 2 or more teams would work best with option number 3 that he suggested. Teams could be broken out to tackle the station in Kerbin orbit, Munar Orbit, and maybe a team for the crew tug and a general purpose cargo tug. That would allow a bit more flexibility into the part counts like JM419 suggested.

Of course if we just made one big station I'm sure we could get some awesome video of some epic lag related crashes. Who doesn't like a good explosion and debris cloud now and again ? hehe Now where did I put that Sunbeam laser.....

[leax256]

how about 2 stations in the same orbit height but one is 0 inclination and the other is in a polar orbit. the viewers can determine the best station.

[Jm419]

I'm really game for just about anything here. After reading through JM419's post I think I would lean more toward options 2 or 3. Of course that is assuming we split into two or more teams for the build as JM419 suggested. If we went with #2, one station could maybe be a large fuel depot in low Kerbin orbit while the other could be a proper station up in a much higher orbit. Getting a fuel depot built can be challenging itself so it might not make it too easy on less experience people.

JM419's points about the part counts seem right on the mark to me. The idea of splitting up into 2 or more teams would work best with option number 3 that he suggested. Teams could be broken out to tackle the station in Kerbin orbit, Munar Orbit, and maybe a team for the crew tug and a general purpose cargo tug. That would allow a bit more flexibility into the part counts like JM419 suggested.

Of course if we just made one big station I'm sure we could get some awesome video of some epic lag related crashes. Who doesn't like a good explosion and debris cloud now and again ? hehe Now where did I put that Sunbeam laser.....

Actually, a refueling depot is something I hadn't considered. Instead of two stations, why not build a station and a refueling depot? That way, there's some more flexibility in the station, and we wouldn't have to run four tanker flights to refuel it at a high orbit. The refueling depot could then be a dedicated orbiter designed only for fueling up interplanetary flights - something which would be really useful if we ever decide to build a station around, say, Jool.

You know - that could be our eventual goal of the project. We could consider this a persistance file that we slate for general release in the future, with all the infrastructure intact. A Kerbin station - refueling depot combination would allow users to skip the in-between steps and go straight for interplanetary flights. We'd be building a persistance file as a service to the community. "Want a space station, but hate docking? Try this one on for size."

how about 2 stations in the same orbit height but one is 0 inclination and the other is in a polar orbit. the viewers can determine the best station.

Except that the polar station would take an unbelievably long time to build compared to the equatorial one. Ingame months, at least, because we'd have to wait for the planet to rotate underneath the orbit, and then we'd have to launch regardless of where the space station is. Whereas you can build an equatorial station in a day if you time your rendezvous right, this would have two variables to worry about. Not to mention the (infinitesimally small) risk of collision.

[TheTriniFlyer]

Actually IIRC the lag will be less if we orbit a body without water, this is because (as I read elsewhere) rock and water are represented as two different planetary bodies, that is why for about half a second on loading you can see ocean underneath the runway/launch pad. This mean if we build something round Mün or Minmus we can safely up the parts by practically 2x, but I'd stick with no more than 550 parts orbiting the Mün / Minmus.

I'd vote for teams of:

(Please note distances indicate the circular orbit meaning 200km-500km does not mean apo-500 and peri-200 it means the craft can be place at circular 200k, 300k,400k, 500k.)(circular defined as - Apo and Peri are 5% within each other.)

Kerbin Re-fuel (100km-500km)

Mün Scientific (50km-200km)

Minmus Scientific (20km-150km)

Kerbin High Scientic + Interplanetary Comms Relay (possibly 20,000km)

Also we will need some people to do 2 missions, ie. 1. To place module at station, and 2. Perform refueling mission to the depot for the next player.

Edited July 9, 2013 by TheTriniFlyer

[SkyHook]

Honestly? If we are worried about lag, then mods are the best way to go. We already have the idea to split things in two, one team could be for mods! As a relevant example, the shuttle that popular streamer EJ_SA built has at least 700 parts, and lifts off at about 5 frames per second. The shuttle that I am building with mods is 53 parts, all up. Just my two cents!

[Jm419]

Actually IIRC the lag will be less if we orbit a body without water, this is because (as I read elsewhere) rock and water are represented as two different planetary bodies, that is why for about half a second on loading you can see ocean underneath the runway/launch pad. This mean if we build something round Mün or Minmus we can safely up the parts by practically 2x, but I'd stick with no more than 550 parts orbiting the Mün / Minmus.

I'd vote for teams of:

(Please note distances indicate the circular orbit meaning 200km-500km does not mean apo-500 and peri-200 it means the craft can be place at circular 200k, 300k,400k, 500k.)(circular defined as - Apo and Peri are 5% within each other.)

Kerbin Re-fuel (100km-500km)

Mün Scientific (50km-200km)

Minmus Scientific (20km-150km)

Kerbin High Scientic + Interplanetary Comms Relay (possibly 20,000km)

Also we will need some people to do 2 missions, ie. 1. To place module at station, and 2. Perform refueling mission to the depot for the next player.

Ok, some points here:

Kerbin's oceans do indeed render separately; it has, in a way, two surfaces. However, that is not the case past 159 km, or whatever. Haven't you noticed the rendering jump at 160,000 m? The surface is rendered differently a long way off.

What this means is we can't actually increase part counts around another body. The other bodies render similarly to Kerbin at high altitude, as they're treated as a texture rather than procedural terrain. 550 parts is way out of the realm of possibility, I'm afraid, because that 300 part limit was tested at high Kerbin orbit - outside the range of above 160 km. My 314 part ship flies at 250 km, and it's still a lagfest. If it were within 150 km, it would be unplayable - so rather than revising our estimates upward, we'd actually have to revise them downward when we're within the double-render zone of Kerbin.

Now, I do agree with you about the double refueling mission. We should probably implement a rule; if you fly a fuel tank up, you fill it up before you're done.

Honestly? If we are worried about lag, then mods are the best way to go. We already have the idea to split things in two, one team could be for mods! As a relevant example, the shuttle that popular streamer EJ_SA built has at least 700 parts, and lifts off at about 5 frames per second. The shuttle that I am building with mods is 53 parts, all up. Just my two cents!

Yeah... listen, I know folks want mods, but I will absolutely not use mods in my file. What you're suggesting is that we break up the persistance file, which doesn't make much sense. As previously discussed, you're free to use mods to get your thing into orbit, but I'm not going to install mods to do this. I'm a stock purist, through and through.

[SkyHook]

Ok, some points here:

Kerbin's oceans do indeed render separately; it has, in a way, two surfaces. However, that is not the case past 159 km, or whatever. Haven't you noticed the rendering jump at 160,000 m? The surface is rendered differently a long way off.

What this means is we can't actually increase part counts around another body. The other bodies render similarly to Kerbin at high altitude, as they're treated as a texture rather than procedural terrain. 550 parts is way out of the realm of possibility, I'm afraid, because that 300 part limit was tested at high Kerbin orbit - outside the range of above 160 km. My 314 part ship flies at 250 km, and it's still a lagfest. If it were within 150 km, it would be unplayable - so rather than revising our estimates upward, we'd actually have to revise them downward when we're within the double-render zone of Kerbin.

Now, I do agree with you about the double refueling mission. We should probably implement a rule; if you fly a fuel tank up, you fill it up before you're done.

Yeah... listen, I know folks want mods, but I will absolutely not use mods in my file. What you're suggesting is that we break up the persistance file, which doesn't make much sense. As previously discussed, you're free to use mods to get your thing into orbit, but I'm not going to install mods to do this. I'm a stock purist, through and through.

It ifs unfortunate that we could not reach a conclusion. You see, I am the exact opposite. I am about two plugins short of Anti stock! My rockets don't fly unless they look good and fly better. I would have shelved this game several months ago if it weren't for the functionality and freedom of building that mods add to the game. With all of that being said, I will have to remove myself from the group. Good luck, and I look forward to seeing the project grow!

[Nauthy]

Sorry to see you go, SkyHook You were one of the first to sign up, it sucks that you won't get to contribute. I've always been torn on the mods issue, I agree with you about the functionality and freedom they provide, but I think they'd overly complicate the project, especially with the number of people involved. I'd be more than willing to do a similar build in the future where mods are allowed, though Probably with less people, heh, I didn't expect so many to want in on this!

As for teams, I'm all for it! It makes sense considering how big our group is and it'll keep the parts count decent. Having two stations around Kerbin, one as a refuelling depot and one a proper station, seems like it might be the way to go. At ~300 parts per station, we could even try for a limit of 35 parts per module.

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

For the stations, could we say, make a orbital tug and tug it to the Mun then continue there?