Is KSP kessler syndrome possible?

[Piv]

With the game's physics, is it possible to simulate kessler syndrome in the background or even witness it in orbit?

[NASI Director]

I tired doing it by launching a craft with tons of radial decouplers. Very hard to do. However, it won't occur when you're not in control of the craft because physics is only simulated when you load it. In fact, if you are docking two space craft together and you time warp, you can fly right through the craft.

[tavert]

KSP physics only applies within about 2.3 km of the ship you're currently focused on. So no such thing as in-space collisions of vessels in the background. It's quite hard to get a high-relative-velocity space collision in KSP, it's very likely that 2 small craft can just pass through each other without registering the collision.

[SkyRender]

Due to the on-rails nature of the simulation, you can't realistically generate a Kessler syndrome in KSP. You can make a very small-scale equivalent at any time by sending up a part-heavy craft and inducing spontaneous unplanned disassembly on it, of course.

[Jarnis]

You can certainly fill a common orbit, say, equatorial 100km "parking orbit" with enough debris so that flying on that exact orbit becomes risky. Granted, to get deadly hits you probably need to do this on purpose; spread debris on retrograde missions then fly exact that orbit prograde. That's because relative velocities on objects in same orbit are roughly similar. Alternatively you would need to fill the sky (again, on purpose) with stuff that has orbits that intersect with a specific orbit to coax an accident.

Space is BIG and since on-rails objects cannot collide with each other, there is no way to get "runaway" debris field that would cover any substantial amount of near-Kerbin space. You would get KSP game performance issues long before that anyway (from map view having issues drawing all those orbits)

[OUScooby]

For those of us who don't know what is kessler syndrome?

[Maxwell Fern]

For those of us who don't know what is kessler syndrome?

There is so much debris in orbit that you risk to hit one, thus creating more debris, which are likely to hit other things, creating even more debris. This is a chain reaction that eventually ends up with the impossibility to go to space for several centuries.

This is very similar to a fission bomb, where it's all stable and fun until you reach the critical mass, the chain reaction kicks in and boom, everything explodes.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Maxwell Fern

[Fel]

Kessler Syndrome is a bit of a lie, you just need to have stronger skin on what goes up. And then stronger skin on the next stuff that goes up, and so on.

Technology will certainly progress fast enough that we can effectively ignore the effect.

[Jarnis]

Kessler Syndrome is a bit of a lie, you just need to have stronger skin on what goes up. And then stronger skin on the next stuff that goes up, and so on.

Technology will certainly progress fast enough that we can effectively ignore the effect.

Doesn't mean you should litter the place on purpose. Missions these days almost always go for safe disposal of stages and other unavoidable debris (ie. it won't stick around long and will re-enter harmlessly)

[comham]

Due to the on-rails nature of the simulation, you can't realistically generate a Kessler syndrome in KSP. You can make a very small-scale equivalent at any time by sending up a part-heavy craft and inducing spontaneous unplanned disassembly on it, of course.

Well, there's not really any such thing as a "small scale" kessler syndrome. Either you've buggered up your planets orbit, or you haven't.

But you're right about the on-rails thing. That and no tiny bits of debris = no kessler syndrome. Although with KSP's atmosphere cutoff, you wouldn't have self-cleaning either, since irl Kessler syndrome clears up after a while due to debris re-entering.

[Maxwell Fern]

Kessler Syndrome is a bit of a lie, you just need to have stronger skin on what goes up. And then stronger skin on the next stuff that goes up, and so on.

Technology will certainly progress fast enough that we can effectively ignore the effect.

I doubt that technology progresses enough to let us one day ignore the effect of a 1kg piece of metal hitting, hum, anything at several km/s...

[Fel]

I doubt that technology progresses enough to let us one day ignore the effect of a 1kg piece of metal hitting, hum, anything at several km/s...

Nonsense, why even now we're developing rockets armed with mass drivers! Why should we care about a small object hurtling our way at 1 km/s when we can fire 10 LARGER objects at 5 km/s!

[Sirrobert]

Kessler Syndrome is a bit of a lie, you just need to have stronger skin on what goes up. And then stronger skin on the next stuff that goes up, and so on.

Technology will certainly progress fast enough that we can effectively ignore the effect.

Stronger skin? Break of a tiny piece of foam and your shuttle explodes

[kahlzun]

It would be difficult to replicate unintentionally, but with the 'lazor' plugin, you can set physics range to be up to 100km, which would allow collisions to be registered from the surface (depending on height of orbit)

[Banbite]

Well, since stuff tends to disintegrate on collision instead of shattering into a lot of tiny little pieces I don't think it would be possible.

[1of6Billion]

Well, since stuff tends to disintegrate on collision instead of shattering into a lot of tiny little pieces I don't think it would be possible.

Some of those solar panels definitely shatter into smaller bits on impact

[Moon Goddess]

You can certainly fill a common orbit, say, equatorial 100km "parking orbit" with enough debris so that flying on that exact orbit becomes risky. Granted, to get deadly hits you probably need to do this on purpose; spread debris on retrograde missions then fly exact that orbit prograde. That's because relative velocities on objects in same orbit are roughly similar. Alternatively you would need to fill the sky (again, on purpose) with stuff that has orbits that intersect with a specific orbit to coax an accident.

This is why I use 70km for basic launches, 72 for space station, 75 for assembly of interplanetary craft. Close enough they can still rendezvous, if needed but distant enough debris is spread out.

I really should swap the basic launches and interplanetary for improved Oberth but assembly and docking I tend to loose some altitude and don't wanna dip low enough I get drag.

[Tw1]

This is why I use 70km for basic launches, 72 for space station, 75 for assembly of interplanetary craft.

That's still pretty close. I tend to put stations a few hundred Km up, use 90 km for basic launches (atmosphere safely margin), and assemble things in between.

The greater distance makes for easier rendezvous.

I would've though the difference between the oberth effect from those would be minuscule.

[SkyRender]

Kessler Syndrome is a bit of a lie, you just need to have stronger skin on what goes up. And then stronger skin on the next stuff that goes up, and so on.

Technology will certainly progress fast enough that we can effectively ignore the effect.

Physics do not work that way. One of the fundamental concepts behind action/reaction is that each action generates an equal and opposite reaction. This is why colliding with things causes damage and does not cause the objects in question to just harmlessly bounce away from one another. By the time you get up to the speed discrepancies you see between suborbital and orbital, the effect is that anything you hit is going faster than the peak speed of a .22 slug (if not potentially several magnitudes faster). And is probably quite a lot larger than a .22 slug too. I don't know how stable spacecraft are in the real world, but I doubt any hull exists that could survive the equivalent of a point-blank shot from a high-caliber rifle firing a half-meter-wide slug at several kilometers per second.

[AustralianFries]

An old powerless satellite hit my launch vehicle the other day...

WOOO KESSLER SYNDROME! No but seriously it was pretty crazy. I've never had anything collide with me in orbit.

[Kerbol Prime]

Prevent kessler syndrome=drop parts into our backyards (and onto our heads) instead of leaving it in space. But anyways, kessler syndrome would be hard to achieve in KSP.

[Geschosskopf]

Prevent kessler syndrome=drop parts into our backyards (and onto our heads) instead of leaving it in space. But anyways, kessler syndrome would be hard to achieve in KSP.

The more debris you have, the easier it is. So what you need to do is break your spent ascent stages such into as many pieces as possible. Seprotrons are great for this. Angle them so they blow up fuel tanks as you stage, sending any RCS clusters, tail fins, and other tanks in the stack scattering in all directions. With careful planning, you can get a couple dozen fragments out of what would otherwise be a single piece of debris

[Good_Apollo]

I've had craft hit each other before because of intersecting orbits. It was always a shock because I too didn't think KSP could generate it. It's possible, especially with Romfarer's Lazer plugin with increased load distances.

I'm a scumbag who unrealistically deletes any debris or spent stages though. More of a performance thing though because KSP doesn't allow non-controlled objects to have decaying orbits. Either an object is in a stable orbit or it's on a suborbital path. I've seen objects in an 'orbit' dip into the atmosphere of Kerbin at altitudes of like 20KM and somehow just keep going and back out into space unless I load into them directly.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Good_Apollo

[Fel]

I doubt any hull exists that could survive the equivalent of a point-blank shot from a high-caliber rifle firing a half-meter-wide slug at several kilometers per second.

What do you expect to happen when you deny NASA their budget? They need to invent newer and stronger hulls capable of withstanding more and more.

[kahlzun]

I've never had anything collide with me in orbit.

i started a suborbital burn the other day like 40s before something going retrograde flew through where i'd been.

Missed me by less than 1200m.

Was pretty crazy, especially as it was on an elliptic orbit..