Old 0.20 save debate: Please close, mods.

[Bekiekutmoar]

Looks like its time to wrap up my space program and withdraw a number of Kerbonauts from Eve and Moho. Easier said than done I think ... !

[Torham234]

very very interesting. I've been holding off doing anything significant during .20 because... well I'm really waiting for resources. And this just adds another reason.

I've been designing ... and testing things in LKO... making plans... for the future.

Until the game hits official 1.0 release, I am pretty much concentrating on just understanding the mechanics of the game and enjoying the experience. I design craft, fly around, refine, design some more. I see no point in starting any mega projects at this stage. I have time. I take all this as a preparation for the career mode ( witch I am immensely looking forward to).

[Tiron]

No I mean just rebuilding my craft rom scratch with the new parts. Then sending them back where they were via hyper edit. And the same goes to your mapping probes. Build them, cheat them back to where they were then move on as if nothing ever happened ( and delete hyperedit )

Doesn't work, because they're actually creating maps as they pass over the surface. ISA Mapsat creates topographic maps and a database of anomaly locations. Kethane creates a map of where the Kethane deposits are. Simply moving the probe back to where it was doesn't recreate the maps. Kethane, the more annoying of the two, isn't based on the surface and there's no reason it couldn't be saved even through a save compatibility break...other than majiir breaking it himself in the meantime.

But if they change the anomalies (Adding/Removing some, changing locations other than vertically) or the surface, my ISA maps go out the window and have to be recreated.

The fastest Kerbin mapping orbits take about 15 hours game time. For the Mun, about 19.25. Minmus, about 22.5. And you can only pull about 10x time acceleration, or you pass over the surface so quickly you end up with very bad data. So it ends up taking hours and hours, each. I've done this probably close to half a dozen times now.

[Motokid600]

Doesn't work, because they're actually creating maps as they pass over the surface. ISA Mapsat creates topographic maps and a database of anomaly locations. Kethane creates a map of where the Kethane deposits are. Simply moving the probe back to where it was doesn't recreate the maps. Kethane, the more annoying of the two, isn't based on the surface and there's no reason it couldn't be saved even through a save compatibility break...other than majiir breaking it himself in the meantime.

But if they change the anomalies (Adding/Removing some, changing locations other than vertically) or the surface, my ISA maps go out the window and have to be recreated.

The fastest Kerbin mapping orbits take about 15 hours game time. For the Mun, about 19.25. Minmus, about 22.5. And you can only pull about 10x time acceleration, or you pass over the surface so quickly you end up with very bad data. So it ends up taking hours and hours, each. I've done this probably close to half a dozen times now.

Hmm.. I don't have the mod, but I'm guessing the mapping procedure can't be done in the background? Meaning you can't be building another craft while the probe does its thing?

[softweir]

You do know the ISA maps can be copied from one installation to another?

[Tiron]

Hmm.. I don't have the mod, but I'm guessing the mapping procedure can't be done in the background? Meaning you can't be building another craft while the probe does its thing?

If it could, I would be exceptionally happy. Unfortunately it only works while the craft is focused. Innsewerants was talking about having an idea to be able to link multiple mapsat units in the same SOI so you can map things faster... some time in the far distant future. Right now you have to leave it sitting, orbiting the planet, for hours, and can't do anything else in the meantime.

You do know the ISA maps can be copied from one installation to another?

Yes. If the maps are still accurate. I've heard mention of 'Art Passes' on some of the planets, which will almost certainly change the topography and possibly the anomaly locations and/or number, requiring remapping.

[FITorion]

You do know the ISA maps can be copied from one installation to another?

I should think so...

Doesn't the way ISA work is... it's got a pre-generated map for each planet and just reveals parts of it as your craft flys over? It's not actually mapping... and any changes in the planets wouldn't be reflected until the creators of the mod update their maps... and you download the latest version...

Edited July 3, 2013 by FITorion

[comham]

tl;dr

Well, you're doing it wrong. Alpha testing etc. Just wait for 1.0 and avoid all that trauma.

[Mishkin_007]

Shelving KSP until 1.0.

[Xjph]

For a completionist like me, having to start over, and over, and over, and over is just depressing and makes me not want to play the game.

You're playing an unfinished game with a completionist mindset? That seems like a fundamental logical disconnect to me.

[Tiron]

I should think so...

Doesn't the way ISA work is... it's got a pre-generated map for each planet and just reveals parts of it as your craft flys over? It's not actually mapping... and any changes in the planets wouldn't be reflected until the creators of the mod update their maps... and you download the latest version...

That's how Kethane works, sort of, because kethane is showing the deposit locations.

ISA actually sends out beams to the surface that determine the distance, creating high-quality, very accurate maps, even of the ocean floor for those planets which have an ocean. When one of those beams encounters an 'anomaly', it gets saved in a database and can be used as an overlay.

There's also an option to enable saving the raw collected data in a csv file, which you can then use with an included tool to generate maps of pretty much any size you like. Even change the colors used.

The upside is you get accurate maps without an update if the terrain gets changed. The downside is there's no way to hack in a completed map, other than downloading one off someone else.

[FITorion]

That's how Kethane works, sort of, because kethane is showing the deposit locations.

ISA actually sends out beams to the surface that determine the distance, creating high-quality, very accurate maps, even of the ocean floor for those planets which have an ocean. When one of those beams encounters an 'anomaly', it gets saved in a database and can be used as an overlay.

There's also an option to enable saving the raw collected data in a csv file, which you can then use with an included tool to generate maps of pretty much any size you like. Even change the colors used.

The upside is you get accurate maps without an update if the terrain gets changed. The downside is there's no way to hack in a completed map, other than downloading one off someone else.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't... it doesn't detect anomalies. The anomalies are programed into it by the mod creators. They have a master "data set" map of the planet that they then use your altitude to calculate how much of it your craft would reveal. It's not sending out any beams of any sort.

[Lazro]

I'm assuming that .craft files will remain intact, in which case, I am completely fine with my save file being wrecked, I need to redo some space stations and space missions anyway.

[Panchopinata]

So... would it be possible to save the saves by simply removing the crew from their craft? (ex. EVA all crew and then abort/"end flight" EVAs)

Or is it more of a "the mechanic for how crew are handled, stored in vessels, assigned to craft, and generally how craft are saved has been changed, so it wouldn't matter anyway" issue?

I'm asking because I've never had experience rewriting the saves and I'd really rather all the work I've got stay up, you know?

On a side note, WOOHOO NEW THINGS! I'm looking forward to what you've got coming our way, even if it kills my stations and other craft. Keep up the good work!

Edited July 3, 2013 by Panchopinata

[Majiir]

Kethane deposits and scan maps will be preserved. If Squad makes dramatic changes to KSP then it might require a manual file move, but I can't imagine anything they could do that would completely break Kethane compatibility. My guess is no changes will be needed at all, at least not to the persistence code.

[MisterTelecaster]

Here's the way I see it:

They say they're working on career mode but not changing sandbox, right? So I predict that all of our career mode saves will break, but our sandbox saves will not, since sandbox game mechanics will remain completely unchanged in 0.21. And since career mode is disabled when creating a new save game, you will presumably only have sandbox files, and none of said sandbox files will likely be affected in any way shape or form by career mode. Unless you hacked it somehow, but then you're pretty much asking for your save file to get screwed up.

[FITorion]

Here's the way I see it:

They say they're working on career mode but not changing sandbox, right? So I predict that all of our career mode saves will break, but our sandbox saves will not, since sandbox game mechanics will remain completely unchanged in 0.21. And since career mode is disabled when creating a new save game, you will presumably only have sandbox files, and none of said sandbox files will likely be affected in any way shape or form by career mode. Unless you hacked it somehow, but then you're pretty much asking for your save file to get screwed up.

They're adding features that are important to campaign mode. These features get added to sand box as well. I'm assuming you didn't read the whole thread...

here:

While we've been able to maintain compatibility over the last couple of updates, unfortunately this one isn't such a case. The new crew management system changed the format for saving crews (to something much better), and the new format isn't compatible with the old version. Instead of risking breaking things even more by writing some sort of upgrade logic, we decided it was better to just break compatiblity and start fresh.

This also gives us a nice opportunity to do other tweaks that we can't usually do, exactly because they tend to break saves. Because we're going to break it anyway, we can push in a lot of other little tweaks that wouldn't have gone in otherwise, so hopefully they will make it worthwhile.

You can always manually edit your save so it matches the new format, but that can cause other issues, so we really don't recommend it.

Stay tuned for a dev blog soon about new things that we got to add because we decided to break compatiblity.

Cheers

[Cesrate]

I think the new SAS/ASAS features will most definetly break saves; as every command pod uses SAS torque, and it's being completely revamped, I see it is going to break saves.

No, as the model of part isn't changed.

[Tiron]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't... it doesn't detect anomalies. The anomalies are programed into it by the mod creators. They have a master "data set" map of the planet that they then use your altitude to calculate how much of it your craft would reveal. It's not sending out any beams of any sort.

ISA Mapsat doesn't work that way. It actually DOES scan the surface, using an adjustable number of scanlines. It comes with no pregenerated map textures and no database of locations (it has a database of maximum and minimum altitudes for each planet, however).

That's most of why it's so neat: Saving the raw scan data allows you to generate maps of more or less an arbitrary size. I used to do that to check the fine resolution of my scans, generating huge maps to pore over while zoomed in.

It may have worked the way you say at first, but not any longer.

Edit: You know, I forgot about one of the features he added in The dev version of mapsat 4: There's now a button to regenerate the altitude database, which he claims is to allow you to scan new planets without him having to update the plugin manually to do it.

Edit2: Okay, it's not a button, it's a checkbox (a round one that lights up but...) It checks for missing planets automatically if enabled, but apparently it's a fairly time consuming operation to calculate the altitudes and add them to the database.

Kethane deposits and scan maps will be preserved. If Squad makes dramatic changes to KSP then it might require a manual file move, but I can't imagine anything they could do that would completely break Kethane compatibility. My guess is no changes will be needed at all, at least not to the persistence code.

That's my guess too, but you are now officially my favorite person for the day.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Tiron

[John FX]

All I care is that my craft can be loaded. I can fly the missions again.

[tygoo7]

What I did with my save since I'm going to have to start over is that I used Whack-a-Kerbal on all of my current ships. Its actually really fun

[Tiron]

What I did with my save since I'm going to have to start over is that I used Whack-a-Kerbal on all of my current ships. Its actually really fun

Well, I've got a free-flying voyager probe with only one part, so that'd be boring. Its booster is somewhat behind it in the middle of a bi-elliptical transfer to the sun, that might be somewhat interesting. My mapping probe is still at minmus, with enough fuel to go several more places. There's a piece of debris from the voyager probe flying around between kerbin and about duna's orbit somewhere, but it's empty so no good explosions.

And the rover on the surface would stand a good chance of surviving being hit. I might try that...

[Guest]

What I did with my save since I'm going to have to start over is that I used Whack-a-Kerbal on all of my current ships. Its actually really fun

I'll have to try that instead of simply deorbiting my space station...

[fcbayerndm]

I'll have to try that instead of simply deorbiting my space station...

You could always "take care" of that space station in an ASBM (Anti Satellite Ballistic Missile) test

[Tiron]

I'll have to try that instead of simply deorbiting my space station...

For a large, multi-parted object I suggest doing it from something else flying nearby, and DON'T hit what you're focused on. hitting something big with lots of parts tends to send bits flying off, and if you hit the bit you're focused on you get sent to another part in an order that's hard to predict.