[1.0.5] TAC Life Support v0.11.2.1 [12Dec]

[Niouk]

Hello,

I have an issue since i installed the latest version of this mod. (I made a clean install after deleting the ThunderAerospace folder)

I decided to start a new carrier, and the TAC life support icon does not appear in the KSP scenery. The new ressources are showing if I check on the ressources icon, but the oxygen, water and food are not consumed.

If I load an old save where TAC life support was already enabled, the icon is there and the mod is working fine.

Any idea what could be causing this? (Also, where can i find the log in Linux, I haven't been able to find the player.log file mentioned on the help page for this mod)

thanks for your help, I would really like to be able to starve my kerbal to death in my new saves!

[Mecripp]

The players log in linux is in Home the hit shift H to unhide files then look for .config then look for unity3d and you are there hope it helped.

[Niouk]

Thanks, MeCripp! I recently switch to linux to enjoy KSP 64 bits with all my mods enabled, and I still need some learning.

I copied the log in https://www.dropbox.com/sh/yva8vkx76grdlni/AAAbvSSx7If3oteA2RklsRbna?dl=0

I also included two persistents files from an old save (with TAC life support working fine) and a new save (with TAC life support not enabled)

Thanks for your help!

[TaranisElsu]

I mostly noticed it because once Waste filled up, I suddenly stopped recycling CO2. Even with the CO2 scrubber running, if my Waste fills up CO2 no longer gets cleaned.

That should not be happening. Is your oxygen tank filling up? Next time you see that, please upload a log file (see my signature for instructions).

Yes, i agree.It is supposed to work like that. I have to had made a directory error some place.

Right! A bit of a draconian action but I binned the lot. All my mods and config files! They loaded bay in TAS and it worked like a charm. 10 minutes later and I was all setup with the best of the other mods supporting 0.90 and all is well.

Glad you got it figured out. Sorry that the error message was not clearer. Next time, upload a log file (see my signature). It helps diagnose all kinds of issues.

When I go to max time warp around sun, my ElectricCharge goes down and warp stops and "ElectricCharge depleted!" message appears. Then my electricity goes back up again. My electricity's source is 8 gigantor arrays.

Video

As WuphonsReach and Donziboy2 said, because of how KSP works, you need to have enough reserve to last your current timewarp in seconds divided by 10. So at 100,000x warp, you need enough electricity to last at least 10,000 seconds (2.78 hours) of game time. Make sure that you account for all electicity users, not just this mod.

Hello to all.

My question is, Why are my unmanned stations using up all of the resources??? These are preplaced parts waiting for kerbal crew(s) to arrive. However, all food, water everything is being consumed by some ghost???

I have glanced through the pages and if i missed this, sorry.

any help or what do i need to do or what have i done wrong.... MechJeb shouldn't be hungry????

thanks.

I'm not sure what is going on there....

I'll need to see a log file. And your persistent.sfs file might be helpful. See my signature for instructions on where to find the log file. Please run KSP and fly 2-3 different vessels including one of your unmanned stations and one other ship and upload the log file.

Thanks, MeCripp! I recently switch to linux to enjoy KSP 64 bits with all my mods enabled, and I still need some learning.

I copied the log in https://www.dropbox.com/sh/yva8vkx76grdlni/AAAbvSSx7If3oteA2RklsRbna?dl=0

I also included two persistents files from an old save (with TAC life support working fine) and a new save (with TAC life support not enabled)

Thanks for your help!

Looks like you are using Tarsier Space Technologies. Make sure that you have the fixed version. It was interfering with other mods.

[Niouk]

Thanks a lot! I was sure i had the latest version of Tarsier Space Technologies, I did not realise a new thread had a newer version... My bad...

[PhilMcgroin]

Having a weird bug. I think it has something to do with turning off life support for my save. I was waiting for an Eve transfer window and had to time warp at max, which was playing havoc with my resources, so I turned off life support for the save while I did the time warping, then turned it back on. Since then, when I switch to ships that were existing before, the oxygen in them instantly goes to zero and every crew in them dies instantly

I have an empty ship waiting to go to Eve in orbit, with no oxygen. Then I dock with my ship full of crew for it, that also has 128k oxygen to stock it up for the journey, which was working normally during the rendezvous, slowly depleting, etc. But as soon as they dock, the oxygen vanishes, and 36 kerbals instantly die of oxygen depletion. Anyone encountered this before?

Edit: Screenshots, http://i.imgur.com/cY1jP4B.png before docking. And http://i.imgur.com/IPm7ovX.png the instant after docking. Why did all that oxygen vanish, and why didn't they have the short delay before dying, so I could try and at least get some of the air filters up and running?

Edit Two: I played with my persistant file and edited the empty ship to give it full oxygen. The same thing happens when they dock, both ships oxygen is reduced to zero, 35 insta-dead kerbals

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/30206621/output_log.txt

Edited March 12, 2015 by PhilMcgroin

[DirtyFace83]

I turned off life support for the save while I did the time warping, then turned it back on. Since then, when I switch to ships that were existing before, the oxygen in them instantly goes to zero and every crew in them dies instantly

Having similar issues. If TAC LS could be made to work with something like this then it would make an already great mod practically perfect.

[futrtrubl]

Having similar issues. If TAC LS could be made to work with something like this then it would make an already great mod practically perfect.

As far as I am aware that does not fix the stock issue of the size of time delta ticks in high warp with insufficient storage for those ticks. So that wouldn't fix this issue.

[TaranisElsu]

Having a weird bug. I think it has something to do with turning off life support for my save. I was waiting for an Eve transfer window and had to time warp at max, which was playing havoc with my resources, so I turned off life support for the save while I did the time warping, then turned it back on. Since then, when I switch to ships that were existing before, the oxygen in them instantly goes to zero and every crew in them dies instantly

I have an empty ship waiting to go to Eve in orbit, with no oxygen. Then I dock with my ship full of crew for it, that also has 128k oxygen to stock it up for the journey, which was working normally during the rendezvous, slowly depleting, etc. But as soon as they dock, the oxygen vanishes, and 36 kerbals instantly die of oxygen depletion. Anyone encountered this before?

Edit: Screenshots, http://i.imgur.com/cY1jP4B.png before docking. And http://i.imgur.com/IPm7ovX.png the instant after docking. Why did all that oxygen vanish, and why didn't they have the short delay before dying, so I could try and at least get some of the air filters up and running?

Edit Two: I played with my persistant file and edited the empty ship to give it full oxygen. The same thing happens when they dock, both ships oxygen is reduced to zero, 35 insta-dead kerbals

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/30206621/output_log.txt

So... a couple things:

• I did not actually design the mod's on/off toggle to be used like that. The original idea was that you could turn it off in some saves and on in others, not toggle it on/off in the same save. I will need to test that usage to see what happens. My assumption is that the next time that you fly a ship after turning the mod back on, it will update as if the mod was never turned off.
  
• How was time warp "playing havoc with resources"? Would you explain a little more about what was happening that led you to toggle it off?
  
• Did you have any crew aboard the Haven that ran out of Oxygen and died?
  

Quick fix to get you playing again (hopefully you have a quicksave): in your save file, find the line that says "vesselName = Haven" within a VesselInfo block. Change the lastOxygen to the same value as the lastUpdate. You might need to do that for most of your vessels; I noticed that the lastOxygen was behind the lastUpdate on most of them.

You also have a lot of errors from another mod (or mods) that are causing problems in ModuleDockingNode.

Having similar issues. If TAC LS could be made to work with something like this then it would make an already great mod practically perfect.

Would you describe the issue as you have seen it?

Regarding Background Processing: I looked at it, and I am not sure about making TACLS work like that. I have been working on doing some of my own work in the background, but I am concerned about the performance impact so it will take a lot of work before that makes it into a release.

As far as I am aware that does not fix the stock issue of the size of time delta ticks in high warp with insufficient storage for those ticks. So that wouldn't fix this issue.

I don't think PhilMcgroin's issue has to do with time warp, but instead with the time since the last update and time since Oxygen ran out.

[DirtyFace83]

Would you describe the issue as you have seen it?

Regarding Background Processing: I looked at it, and I am not sure about making TACLS work like that. I have been working on doing some of my own work in the background, but I am concerned about the performance impact so it will take a lot of work before that makes it into a release.

I don't think PhilMcgroin's issue has to do with time warp, but instead with the time since the last update and time since Oxygen ran out.

If what is happenening to PhilMcgroin is anything like what's going on with me then the issue I think is that yes, indeed, the ship being docked with has a resource value of -124 days left and so when you dock, your controlled ship becomes part of that ship and shares those values. So the process (for me at least) is something like this:

Ship full of LS supplies coming in to dock. Yay!!

Dock.

Supply ship becomes part of MunStation X

Resources status update on vessel focus. OMG There's been no food or air for YEARS!!!!

And.... Instadeath.

All dead.

But from the little I understand about how KSP works, umm... that's how KSP works, so no blaming the modder or the mod on this one.

The main general issue I see is that while resource consumption is calculated very well, the production of resources (recyled air, etc) is not calculated at all if the vessel is not active. I'm not complaining, far from it, as I read all the information regarding this issue before I downloaded it and so far I like it a lot.

If you only run one mission at a time and have no stations or surface bases, then the mod works perfectly as intended and there's no real issue because there's only one ship to update, which is likely going to be the active vessel. The problem arises when you have multiple long range (say to Eeloo or Laythe) and/or long term (ISS or Munbase) crewed missions. If you focus a vessel which can max time warp, then the mod almost (as you say in the wiki) always tells you when resource y has run out on vessel x but it almost never does this in the tracking station. This is a particularly troublesome issue when you try to align planets for transfer windows.

I would also point out that I wasn't specifically referring to the BackgroundProcessing mod, but rather similar functionality relavent to TACLS. The only issue is resource production on out of focus. Nothing else needs touching IMO.

This was why I ended up toggling LS off (your assumption about this is correct btw) but doing this essentialy meant not using the mod anymore without extensive editing of the Persisitence file.

Don't get me wrong, I love the mod. This is just feedback on some issues and has no positive or negative critical value.

Edited March 13, 2015 by DirtyFace83

[Snarfster]

Hi there,

I am working on adding a life support tank to my mod. How does the quantity in the tank relate? For example, I set it up that it stores 1600 units of LiquidFuel, comparison with other mods has taught me that this would equal 8000 units of water (basically 5 units per liter instead of 1 unit per liter). Do all LS resources behave the same way?

Would a 1600 liter tank therefore contain:

77.8 Food

51.4 Water

7870.8 Oxygen

It seems quite low for a big tank. Especially if I compare it to the 1.25m tank supplied by TAC-LS.

Can you help my math?

[WuphonsReach]

Hi there,

I am working on adding a life support tank to my mod. How does the quantity in the tank relate? For example, I set it up that it stores 1600 units of LiquidFuel, comparison with other mods has taught me that this would equal 8000 units of water (basically 5 units per liter instead of 1 unit per liter). Do all LS resources behave the same way?

Would a 1600 liter tank therefore contain:

77.8 Food

51.4 Water

7870.8 Oxygen

It seems quite low for a big tank. Especially if I compare it to the 1.25m tank supplied by TAC-LS.

Can you help my math?

Liters per day in TAC-LS for a life support container is about 0.774 liters/day (O2+H2O+Food) - See post #2659 which has a link to his Google Sheets where it talks about all of the numbers.

A 1600 liter tank would hold 2067 days worth of Life Support supplies in balanced amounts of O2/H2O/Food when compared to the Life Support Supplies containers in the TAC-LS mod.

Of course, in #2659, I also argue that the net storage amount should be drastically cut - by assuming that more internal space is taken up by refrigeration / machinery / packaging, which results in smaller amounts of storage in the same form factor.

[Drew Kerman]

KSPI Extended has a realistic density of Water, with the definition drawn from Community Resource Pack (an older version, not the newer consensus-version being worked on) of 1000/ kg/m³ (this value will remain the same in the newer CRP, by the way).

TAC Life Support has an absolutely arbitrary density for water- which is surprising considering that the density of water was one of the measurements the metric system was founded on in the first place (to the degree that a kilogram is defined as the mass of 1 liter of water). So under absolutely no circumstances whatsoever should the TACLS density-definition of water be used- instead I strongly recommend modding TAC Life Support so that it will use the Community Resource Pack definition of water now rather than later when 1.0 comes out (the new CRP will only be implemented for TAC Life Support and many other mods after 1.0)

FYI pulled this from the KSPI Extended thread.

[Snarfster]

You're may be right about the refrigeration and packaging. For practical purposes I need to start somewhere though.

My math as posted above would suggest a way lower capacity than the "stock" TAC-LS tanks; I am curious how the capacity of these was determined. Also, how would it compare to my 1600 tank. (Basically the tank from the mod in my sig.)

EDIT: Didn't see that KSPI Extended bit before I pressed enter. So what's the verdict? Is my calculation more accurate than the TAC-LS one? If so, I am having a hard time justifying a "jumbo" life support tank.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Snarfster

[TaranisElsu]

FYI pulled this from the KSPI Extended thread.

Um.... "absolutely arbitrary density for water"?

All of my calculations and sources are available:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aioc9ek3XAvwdGNsRlh3OVhlbTFBR3M4RW0zLUNTRFE&usp=sharing

Lines 101-102:

Water                   kg/m^3      kg/L
Density (liquid)         0.001       1            @ 4°C / 100 kPa

That should be the commonly accepted value, and should be what the community resource pack (CRP) and other mods use.

You're may be right about the refrigeration and packaging. For practical purposes I need to start somewhere though.

My math as posted above would suggest a way lower capacity than the "stock" TAC-LS tanks; I am curious how the capacity of these was determined. Also, how would it compare to my 1600 tank. (Basically the tank from the mod in my sig.)

EDIT: Didn't see that KSPI Extended bit before I pressed enter. So what's the verdict? Is my calculation more accurate than the TAC-LS one? If so, I am having a hard time justifying a "jumbo" life support tank.

Starting at line 219, I laid out all of the math and numbers behind my parts. As WuphonsReach said, and discussed a couple pages ago, I might have the amount of usable space within the containers set a little too high, but the density of each resource and ratios between them should all be correct.

Also, I did not use the "5 units per liter instead of 1 unit per liter". If you do, you will end up with way too much per container. I think you should have divided the 1600 units of LiquidFuel by 5 to get 320 liters. Then use that to figure out how much food, water, and oxygen:

Food: 320 Liters * 47.20% = 151.04 units

Water: 320 Liters * 31.20% = 99.84 units

Oxygen: 320 Liters * 21.61% = 69.152 Liters * 221.135 (compressed @ 0°C / 20 MPa (~197.4 atm or 2900 psi)) = 15,291.91 units

Um... how did I end up with twice as much when it sounded like you were starting from 8000 liters?

@WuphonsReach, have you seen the "Balance Check" section in my spreadsheet starting at line 376? What do you think about the numbers there?

[RoverDude]

Also... NorthStar is in for a rude awakening as CRP uses TAC-LS for our water density.

Granted, he's also quibbling over about every other density in that thread. Thankfully he has no say.

[WuphonsReach]

Starting at line 219, I laid out all of the math and numbers behind my parts. As WuphonsReach said, and discussed a couple pages ago, I might have the amount of usable space within the containers set a little too high, but the density of each resource and ratios between them should all be correct.

@WuphonsReach, have you seen the "Balance Check" section in my spreadsheet starting at line 376? What do you think about the numbers there?

I've looked at the numbers, the two main factors are planning for ~1000 day missions and ~4000 day missions. My personal feeling is still that the containers hold 4x-5x too much, which makes the various recycling technologies not worth it except for missions > 6000 days.

Large inline 250cm = 2857 days, 1.88t (wet)

Large food 250cm = 6020 days, 1.37t (wet)

CO2 recycler = 5.5t, 7.6x

Water Purifier = 3.5t, 10x

2x MunSeeker Greenhouse @ 6t with ~3x efficiency to food

Without recyclers, a 4000 day mission for six kerbals requires only 8.4 Life Support Supplies containers or 15.8 tons of supplies. Considering that recycling technology would mass about 6.0+6.0+5.5+3.5 = 21t, that feels a bit off from game balance.

If TAC-LS container capacity was cut by a factor of 4x, a 4000 day mission for six kerbals now requires 33.6t of Life Support Supplies containers. Now it starts to make sense to pack along 21t of recycling technology.

If TAC-LS container capacity was cut by a factor of 5x, a 4000 day mission would require 42t of supplies. Using recyclers in the mix shown above would require ~6 food containers (1.4t) and ~1 oxygen (1.4t) and ~1 water container (3.0t). That's 12.4t of raw supplies and 21t of recycling technology. Or if you assume no use MunSeeker greenhouse, then you need ~1 water container, ~1 oxygen container and ~20 food containers for a total mass of 32t of supplies and 9t of recycling tech.

...

The middle ground would be to cut raw storage capacity by 3-4x. Then also adjust the mass of the 125cm recyclers which are currently under-performing. For example:

Carbon Extractor = 5.0t, 8 kerbals, 7.6 efficiency

Carbon Extractor Large = 5.5t, 9 kerbals, 7.6 efficiency

The smaller 125cm part masses almost as much as the 250cm part. There's not enough differentiation. The 125cm part should be aimed at 3 kerbals, with the 250cm part aimed at 9 kerbals. In terms of mass, if it takes 5.5t to supply 9 kerbals (0.61t/kerbal), then supplying 3 kerbals should require about 0.8t/kerbal (less efficient) which gives a mass for the 125cm part of 2.4t.

CE 125cm = 5.0t -> 2.4t

Sabatier 125cm = 6.0t -> 2.9t

Water Purifier = 3.0t -> 1.7t

...

I should figure out how to write a ModuleManager .cfg file to test this out...

[lajoswinkler]

Could someone tell me what do I need to do to run the recyclers? Let's say I have half filled containers of water, waste water, CO2, food, etc.

I put all of the machines on the vessel and click "activate" on them. Nothing happens, even though there is charge available. What am I doing wrong?

[Taki117]

Could someone tell me what do I need to do to run the recyclers? Let's say I have half filled containers of water, waste water, CO2, food, etc.

I put all of the machines on the vessel and click "activate" on them. Nothing happens, even though there is charge available. What am I doing wrong?

You're not doing nothing wrong, they just take time to convert, just like it takes time to consume.

[KarmaLarma]

I just lost my first Kerbal (In this save, at least) to TAC. I love this mod, but at the same time...

[cadaverific]

Hey T,

First off, i love the mod. Ive been using it on and off since .23 and even more lately (works amazingly with KCT).I'm curious about what sort of updates you have planned for the mod. I've looked over the last 10 or so pages and ive seen you acknowledge that the hex cans may hold too much as well as having parts TACLS run in the background eventually. So i'm really just curious about what (if anything) you might have planned for the next update (i.e. new parts, mechanics, changes). I'm not pushing or anything, i'd just like to hear what you have in the works.

[lajoswinkler]

You're not doing nothing wrong, they just take time to convert, just like it takes time to consume.

What are the power requirements of those machines? I have 4 RTG units worth of energy generation and I still have energy surplus.

[Taki117]

What are the power requirements of those machines? I have 4 RTG units worth of energy generation and I still have energy surplus.

No idea, but 4 RTGs is enough to power most things with plenty left over, unless you are running lots of power consuming things (ions come to mind). The general power draw is .04 for crewed capsules, I don't expect the generators to draw much more than that. You're looking at something like .12 per sec, but don't take my word for it.

[WuphonsReach]

What are the power requirements of those machines? I have 4 RTG units worth of energy generation and I still have energy surplus.

Air Filter = 20/s

Carbon Extractor (125cm) = 0.325/s

Carbon Extractor (250cm) = 0.365/s

Sabatier Recycler (125cm) = 0.325/s

Sabatier Recycler (250cm) = 0.365/s

Water Purifier (125cm) = 0.058/s

Water Purifier (250cm) = 0.065/s

In comparison, the MunSeeker greenhouse requires 1.35/s.

For balance purposes, the 250cm units (CE/SR) should probably be about 10x more power drain then they are now. The Water Purifier should probably be somewhere around 1.5 energy/s for the 250cm unit.

[lajoswinkler]

Thanks, all. I have 0.125 m ones. C extractor, sabatier, water purifier and water splitter. I guess a few months more and RTGs will decay below the minimal sustainable power.