Is it at all possible there was a civilised species on Earth long before humans?

[magnemoe]

Well, I'm no expert in muscle biology, so I can't really say you're wrong. However, I know that some of my former colleagues have published extensively on paleolithic peoples musculature and my understanding is that the take-home is that: Europeans between 12,000 and 50,000 years ago (modern humans) were _much_ more muscular and robust than modern populations. Whether that means that they exceeded even the musculature of the _most_ muscular modern humans I cannot say.

Also, I'm not so sure that it is necessary to use exogenous steroids to achieve maximum musculature for a modern human. It may make it easier, but I'm not sure that the 'range of possibility' is necessarily widened using such drugs. Anyway, we're getting a bit off topic now. Maybe start a new thread on it!

ADDIT: just as a point of reference. Chimpanzees are 4 to 5 times as strong as a human and much faster too.

However, people who was hunter gatherers up to modern times, Inuits, San (bushmen) Australian aboriginals and others are was not much more muscular than other. All of them was also pretty isolated until modern times and has an unique look. Yes they are stronger than paper pushers and computer geeks because of lifestyle, however low tech farming is far heavier work than hunter gathering at least of the type who build muscles, hunters run far more but little backbreaking work.

I wrote that wrestling with prey animals might be an reason, however both we an the chimps mostly fight other of our species. As we became peaceful it was little need of a lot of strength to fight other humans.

Yes compared to chimpanzee we are remarkable peaceful, yes we are good at large scale wars as we are with other large scale organisations, however chances you getting killed by another human is very low globally.

Car crashes and other accidents does not count here

[Diche Bach]

I have not kept up with developments in the past few years. But up to 4 or 5 years ago, there definitely were experts arguing that Neanderthals were NOT assimilated and were a separate creature with which modern humans did not breed.

Seems things are getting more clear as more evidence is assembled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXtyC9RLY-Q

[Kryten]

I have not kept up with developments in the past few years. But up to 4 or 5 years ago, there definitely were experts arguing that Neanderthals were NOT assimilated and were a separate creature with which modern humans did not breed.

In other words up until around 2010, when the neanderthal nuclear genome was published. Chances are, if you're of western european ancestry, you've got up to about 4% neanderthal derived genes; not too much, but to be expected given their population density can't have been very high.

However, there is another recent population of possibly non-modern humans; the 'red deer cave' people. The 'possibly' is because they might just be 'Denisovans'-a group from siberia with the same sort of results as neanderthals from genetic testing (except switch 'western european' with 'micronesian'), but with remains otherwise too scrappy to distinguish them from any other hominid.

[lajoswinkler]

Imagine this guy munching on your face.

While searching for this photo, I found photos of victims' faces. I think I'll never try to pet one on the zoo anymore.

[Sid]

Of course there were civilisations on the Earth before man. They arrived from space while our planet was still young. Evidence of their existence is being suppressed however by a US government agency called Delta Green, mostly to protect our fragile human minds.

Some hints as to what these civilisations were, and how they continue to impact on our lives today can be gained by reading the works of the noted exobiologist Howard Phillips Lovecraft of Miskatonic University.

[Diche Bach]

Of course there were civilisations on the Earth before man. They arrived from space while our planet was still young. Evidence of their existence is being suppressed however by a US government agency called Delta Green, mostly to protect our fragile human minds.

Some hints as to what these civilisations were, and how they continue to impact on our lives today can be gained by reading the works of the noted exobiologist Howard Phillips Lovecraft of Miskatonic University.

Love who craft . . .

[Awaras]

Of course there were civilisations on the Earth before man. They arrived from space while our planet was still young. Evidence of their existence is being suppressed however by a US government agency called Delta Green, mostly to protect our fragile human minds.

Some hints as to what these civilisations were, and how they continue to impact on our lives today can be gained by reading the works of the noted exobiologist Howard Phillips Lovecraft of Miskatonic University.

Ia! Ia! Cthulhu Fhtagn!

[magnemoe]

I have not kept up with developments in the past few years. But up to 4 or 5 years ago, there definitely were experts arguing that Neanderthals were NOT assimilated and were a separate creature with which modern humans did not breed.

Seems things are getting more clear as more evidence is assembled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXtyC9RLY-Q

Thanks for the video, it was nice to watch while sending an ion powered craft to Moho and back for the second time

[Diche Bach]

Yeah, it was a good video. Really surprised to hear that they've got some very strong evidence now to put the debate to rest about whether Neanderthals were a deadend or not. I distinctly remember an article 10 years or so ago with the title "Neanderthals are not us" and it was based on an analysis of some Neanderthal DNA, mitochondrial DNA if memory serves.

Like I've said before, these debates rage, sometimes for years, with proponents of the two or three opposing models/theories seemingly nearly coming to blows and expressing themselves in ways that suggest they feel the conclusion of the debate with confirmation of their veracity is a matter of utmost importance. Then a discovery or breakthrough occurs and *poof* debate pretty much over.

Based on my fairly limited understanding of Neanderthals and of biological species differences more generally, my intuition was always that they were just a sub-species of us and that they were assimilated. Nice to see that that there is now some pretty strong evidence to confirm that intuition.

In other words up until around 2010, when the neanderthal nuclear genome was published. Chances are, if you're of western european ancestry, you've got up to about 4% neanderthal derived genes; not too much, but to be expected given their population density can't have been very high.

However, there is another recent population of possibly non-modern humans; the 'red deer cave' people. The 'possibly' is because they might just be 'Denisovans'-a group from siberia with the same sort of results as neanderthals from genetic testing (except switch 'western european' with 'micronesian'), but with remains otherwise too scrappy to distinguish them from any other hominid.

Holy crap, Denisova. Never even heard of them. Again, nice to see that the recent human 'bush' of the phylogenetic tree was actually pretty bushy!

Edited September 5, 2013 by Diche Bach

[magnemoe]

Based on my fairly limited understanding of Neanderthals and of biological species differences more generally, my intuition was always that they were just a sub-species of us and that they were assimilated. Nice to see that that there is now some pretty strong evidence to confirm that intuition.

Think the Neanderthals has been an sub-species for an long time, the question has been how common interbreeding has been, but with culture as limiting factor not biology.

Holy crap, Denisova. Never even heard of them. Again, nice to see that the recent human 'bush' of the phylogenetic tree was actually pretty bushy!

And its decent chances we find more, florensis was way strange and unpredicted.

[bjo0rn]

If the species was abundant, surely it must have left a footprint in the fossil record. So no, I don't think so.

[AlternNocturn]

By civilised, I mean enough to develop language, social structure, infrastructure and tools.

Do ants count?

[lajoswinkler]

Ants shouldn't count because they haven't got consciousness.

[goldenpeach]

quote from Amaras(page three):

If there was another civilisation that reached a similar tech level as us, they would have probably used up most of the oil reserves and there would be none left for us...

(sorry,the quote system doesn't work for me at the time of writing).

Maybe they used up a resource,now we don't know it exist in nature because they used it up?(leaving us with the oil)

PS:I'm no expert,don't be surprise if this is wrong.

[Seret]

Ants shouldn't count because they haven't got consciousness.

Sure, but by many of the commonly-applied definitions of civilisation (communal living + division of labour + agriculture, etc) ants invented civilisation millions of years ago.

[lajoswinkler]

Sure, but by many of the commonly-applied definitions of civilisation (communal living + division of labour + agriculture, etc) ants invented civilisation millions of years ago.

There's more to civilization than just that.

[Seret]

There's more to civilization than just that.

Clearly, but it's an interesting little idea. Ants are all kinds of awesome.

[lajoswinkler]

Yeah, they are awesome to chaes with a magnifying glass.

JK

[magnemoe]

Yeah, they are awesome to chaes with a magnifying glass.

JK

Magne silently set his orbital laser cannon to track Lajoswinkler's cell phone.

And while ant societies show many of the features of an civilization its all evolved, they have not changed noticeable since humans appeared while human societies has went trough some changes.

Fun thought, we find an alien species with large eusociality animals who was able of cities and agriculture much like ants guess it would confuse us a lot then we found they was stupider than sheep.