Beachernaut Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 For the umpteenth time, there is plenty of torque available (gimbals, reaction wheels, even RCS is I turn it on). It takes the tiniest manual adjustment to hold a heading. SAS simply isn't using it.I agree to a point. It will use all of the force available, but you're pretty much out of control by that time. I tested ASAS using RCS on one of my station pieces in orbit by spinning it and turning on ASAS with RCS on. When spinning at a rate that most of us would use for orbital maneuvers, ASAS never appeared to use RCS, and the force indicators (roll, pitch, and yaw in lower left screen) would barely move. However, if I held down D and got it spinning about as fast as I think it would go, then turn on ASAS, the yaw indicator would move all the way left and it would use RCS to stop the spin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regex Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 For the umpteenth time, there is plenty of torque available (gimbals, reaction wheels, even RCS is I turn it on). It takes the tiniest manual adjustment to hold a heading. SAS simply isn't using it.This.What is the point of SAS if not to hold heading? If it won't use the tools available what is the point of even turning it on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roosterr Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Have you guys just been hitting the T key to lock in place? That will only dampen control forces - look in the control list. You have to now hit F to have the SAS lock on a certain bearing. Its been working perfectly for me. You hit F to lock the bearing with SAS on, then if you turn, the lock disengages, but SAS still keeps the other axis neutral if you're moving just one. Once you have a new heading, hit F again.I am at work right now (ssshhhhhhhh....) and dont have my KSP in front of me. But has anyone of you having problems confirmed this to be a solution to your problem? If so, this could end this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 (edited) Hmm, this is all pretty interesting feedback. We tested innumerable designs during Testing and the SAS was refined an immense number of times. Could folks that are having issues with the SAS, where it doesn't even attempt to hold the heading, provide a video of it? That would be a massive help to us. Thanks.Please note that a stock install and new save file for 0.21 is highly recommended for severe issues. Edited July 25, 2013 by Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asae Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 This.What is the point of SAS if not to hold heading? If it won't use the tools available what is the point of even turning it on?The point of SAS is NOT to hold heading, it's a stability system, it's to aid manual flying not to make you point in just one direction, that's what an autopilot does, and before people go off on me, yes that's what an autopilot is meant to do, maintain heading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murmur Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Hmm, this is all pretty interesting feedback. We tested innumerable designs during Testing and the SAS was refined an immense number of times. Could folks that are having issues with the SAS, where it doesn't even attempt to hold the heading, provide a video of it? That would be a massive help to us. Thanks.My problem is that the SAS is attempting to hold the heading, but it's not using enough force to do it. As in, if I watch my pitch, roll, and yaw indicators they only move a little tiny bit. Once the craft is pointing far enough away from the initial position, more force is applied, but still not enough.EDIT: Is this by design? I mean, it IS still affecting the craft. If I turn the SAS off, the craft will lose control. So is the new SAS not designed to hold a heading like before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulbin Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Hmm, this is all pretty interesting feedback. We tested innumerable designs during Testing and the SAS was refined an immense number of times. Could folks that are having issues with the SAS, where it doesn't even attempt to hold the heading, provide a video of it? That would be a massive help to us. Thanks.Insanely late here, I'll run one off tomorrow (the more people the better) My Moho Redstone might be a good example, very small, simple rocket but ASAS wont keep it straight for more than a hundred feet before it begins to pitch... and maybe my gemini which wobbles like crazy now for the first 20km Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Sierra Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 For the umpteenth time, there is plenty of torque available (gimbals, reaction wheels, even RCS is I turn it on). It takes the tiniest manual adjustment to hold a heading. SAS simply isn't using it.That's what I just said. The SAS is being a lot gentler to prevent flipping out or wobble. The problem comes when you need it to really put some force down and use what you've given it. IT won't do it. It has been configured not to bite so it just isn't applying much (by not much I mean hardly any) of the force you've provided it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartwo Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 I have asas,sas,a mk 1 cockpit,4 probes...and it still went off course by about 20 degrees in about 30 seconds.If only there was a way to toggle between versions as the new asas is love/hate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulbin Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 The point of SAS is NOT to hold heading, it's a stability system, it's to aid manual flying not to make you point in just one direction, that's what an autopilot does, and before people go off on me, yes that's what an autopilot is meant to do, maintain heading.But why in hell would Squad think we wanted that feature removed? removing a function is downgrade not an update.... or are we really supposed to get excited that KSP no longer does something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragosnat Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Guys, the SAS systems have gotten a massive rollback on aggressiveness, mainly because it was burning through RCS fuel and snapping ships in half. But this means it doesn't bite like it used to. It can holld a heading (if enough control surfaces and/or torque) but it won't snap to a point and rigidly not move whether you fight it or not. For lack of a better description, the new SAS is lazier than yall are used to. This is great for preventing rotation in orbit but in atmosphere, it does need to be more aggressive with the initial application of force.Yeah. Prefer it if it snapped the ship in half to not doing anything till I reach 10 km and up. Just got finished putting a probe up. with just One S.A.S. and A.S.A.S.. Add to keep my speed down around 30 m/s just to be able to manually fly it as with S.A.S. engaged it was fighting me to much or if not using it might as well say I never added it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beachernaut Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 I have to admit, I don't even know where to start to record a video.OTOH, I think the only fix for what we're seeing is a compromise. Dial up the ASAS a bit, but not to where it was. Meet in the middle so to speak. However, I have no idea what other problems that may create. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dharak1 Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 (edited) I'm rendering a video now, it has some failures and some successes, the first time SAS worked so far.Edit: Here's the video: Edited July 25, 2013 by dharak1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asae Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 But why in hell would Squad think we wanted that feature removed? removing a function is downgrade not an update.... or are we really supposed to get excited that KSP no longer does something?I respect you greatly there mulbin with your creations but Squad did what they thought was best, fixing the actually buggy 'point here and get stuck or ripped apart' ASAS with something that is closer to what it should have been. This is what they invisioned to begin with, we just got used to the bad implimentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulbin Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 you need it to really put some force down and use what you've given it. IT won't do it.Then it's a pointless part. I either have the option of flying completely manually... or adding a heavy part that allows me to continue flying completely manually. Nice bit of kit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimaci Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Oddly, when I switch ASAS off on my lander it starts to tumble (with increasing speed), in a vacuum, without any input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benie Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 But why in hell would Squad think we wanted that feature removed? removing a function is downgrade not an update.... or are we really supposed to get excited that KSP no longer does something?I would be saying "Hell yeah! Take that, game maker!" But in all reality, it's their game. And I've learned over the years of multiple games, that if the devs do something that upsets people but makes others praise them (like this), there's nothing really you can do about it except play another game.I seriously doubt they did this to piss people off. I mean, think about it, this game, like Minecraft was, is the first of its kind. There's always going to be awesome things that are added, and some awesome things will break (or in this case, stop working to make it the way the devs wanted it to be). That's how development works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Sierra Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 I do think it does need some more bite I mean now it is useless. The goal of SAS is that it holds an orientation so you can sit back for a moment but if it can't hold jack****, what's the point? Then you have to manually override it and you might as well just to full manual flight and that gets tedious after a while <insert_mechjeb> Oh wait, mechjeb is busted! Just like Ferram! Squad, cut R4m0n a day off so he can fix FAR for us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caelib Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Are you using a joystick? If so, make sure to add deadzone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regex Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 The point of SAS is NOT to hold heading, it's a stability system, it's to aid manual flying not to make you point in just one direction, that's what an autopilot does, and before people go off on me, yes that's what an autopilot is meant to do, maintain heading.Could you explain to me what a stability system is supposed to do on a rocket to aid manual flight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyomoto Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 (edited) I cannot provide a video, I can only talk about what I've seen. Originally I thought the system might just take some getting used to but it appears to fight you. During takeoff it has this habit of pitching over, not completely mind you, just veering off straight up and down until about ten or eleven kilometers. In space it feels more manageable but overall I'm fighting with it a lot. It cancels out minute adjustments, so I spend a lot of time correcting. It also seems to drift slowly, in that it's apparently far from cancelling out all motion but perhaps I just do not have sufficient torque. It refuses to hold a heading, even if I put a kaibosh on it manually then engage, it just doesn't seem to be able to reduce drift to zero.I've flown a successful stock mission to the Mun, landing, takeoff and safe return using the new system so I know it's manageable, it's just FAR more hands-on than the previous. I think it's a combination of being completely different and needing tuning that makes it difficult to use. ASAS previously was an end all solution to bad piloting, the new system is clearly an assistant (turn it off, I ASSURE you it does something). I can see why there would be a lot of contention over a changed feature that, well, makes the game more difficult than it was. I personally see good things in the future, but I'm certain tweaks will be incoming. Edited July 25, 2013 by Hyomoto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulbin Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 I've turned it off... it's more stable now and the rocket stopped wobbling.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtsp Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Really disappointed with the new ASAS. Please please please add an option to use the old ASAS....please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartwo Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 The thing is you can build a ship which withstands the shaking of the old ASAS but you can`t build around ASAS which lets itself to tour around the nav-ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimaci Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Are you using a joystick? If so, make sure to add deadzone.No joystick, and no trim.I went back to space centre then reloaded the flight, and the phantom input is now gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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