Something overlooked about SAS

[Giggleplex777]

So, I've been using SAS to keep my rover's wheels on the ground and I noticed something that may have been overlooked.

The current SAS system lacks the ability to allow the rover to turn (roll, in this case) and then lock on its new course.

There should be options that allow the player to disable the SAS' correction for roll, yaw, or pitch so you can turn your rover without it trying to it turn back.

Straight, no SAS roll input.

When I turn, it tries hard to correct it.

It turns it back.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Giggleplex777

[Giggleplex777]

I think this should be in development.

[AustralianFries]

KSP Development section? I think you'll get more help there.

Anyway, as for the problem in question, I'm not really sure to be honest. I'll look over it some more and see if I can get some ideas.

[Bothersome]

OK first thing I notice is your nav ball is pointing straight up.... That is not the way it should be. You need to first design your craft correctly before saying there is an issue with the SAS control.

FYI, the nav bal should be looking at your horizon and the direction (North, South, etc) should be pointing the way the front of the craft is pointing.

[Sean Mirrsen]

There is no way for the new ASAS to work with rovers of that design. It's not an ASAS flaw, it's more of a... well, design quirk. Notice where your navball is pointing. When you turn, even if you're using the default controls so that turning with A and D turns the rover as well, you're using the yaw axis - when for your probe core, turning like that is the roll axis. Either use F to pulse SAS off while you change direction, or build rovers that are actually facing where they're going.

[Giggleplex777]

Everyone's overlooking the last and most important sentence:

There should be options that allow the player to disable the SAS' correction for roll, yaw, or pitch so you can turn your rover without it trying to it turn back.

Meanwhile, I had to tap q or e after I turn.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Giggleplex777

[cesarcurado]

OK first thing I notice is your nav ball is pointing straight up.... That is not the way it should be. You need to first design your craft correctly before saying there is an issue with the SAS control.

FYI, the nav bal should be looking at your horizon and the direction (North, South, etc) should be pointing the way the front of the craft is pointing.

I don't think so, all my rovers pointed up on the navball also the stock one.

I think it depends on how your probe core is positioned.

[Bothersome]

It is dependant upon which way your probe core is pointing. If it is wrong in a stock rover, it is still wrong. Stock may not be perfect crafts either.

The nav ball should not be pointing straight up on a rover.

The controls are not going to work right with it like that.

[Giggleplex777]

*Facepalm* Read.The. Last. Sentence. Please.

Fine, I'll underline it, size=4, and put it at the top.

[AustralianFries]

It is dependant upon which way your probe core is pointing. If it is wrong in a stock rover, it is still wrong. Stock may not be perfect crafts either.

The nav ball should not be pointing straight up on a rover.

The controls are not going to work right with it like that.

In this thread: What is wrong and what is right in a sandbox game? (No but seriously it doesn't matter.)

[Jarin]

Fine, I'll underline it, size=4, and put it at the top.

KSP Development forum post, maybe?

[cesarcurado]

It is dependant upon which way your probe core is pointing. If it is wrong in a stock rover, it is still wrong. Stock may not be perfect crafts either.

The nav ball should not be pointing straight up on a rover.

The controls are not going to work right with it like that.

If you tried it you would know the controls don't mess up. At all.

I just "rove" with W for acceleration, S for deceleration (and reverse), A for turning left and D to turn right.

Also, are you saying it is wrong because you don't use it/don't like it?

The controls are the very same.

[Bothersome]

I did read your last line, you can turn it off... Just hit T. SAS would be off.

We gave you the answer to make it work... You just don't like the answer. And yes, I have made rovers that were wrong too and learned the correct way. Just do it like I said, and try again.. You might be surprised.

[Sean Mirrsen]

There's a way to override it. It's really just called "momentarily turning it off". Why do you use SAS on a rover? Unless it's only to hold a course, you don't need the control of pitch and roll. Just turn it off while you're maneuvering and you should be fine.

I mean, going full hypothetical here. Let's say you got that option to override the roll axis so you could turn your rover when it's pointing straight up. How do you envision it being used? Used at design time, as a part setting, it will prevent SAS from being used to hold a course. Used during a mission it will require either a manual switch in the right-click menu, or an additional button that isn't the F key but does essentially the same thing, for a rover that doesn't have Alteisen Riese in its ancestry and can actually stand on the ground without user input or rocket engine assistance - and if you built one like that, you probably had the option of pointing its control core forward.

All in all, it's not an entirely useful feature, is what I'm saying. The situations where you need a SAS that cannot hold a given axis are... rather few.

A more useful feature would be being able to set the "forward" direction of a control core, at least at design time. This way the problem would be circumvented entirely.

If you tried it you would know the controls don't mess up. At all.

I just "rove" with W for acceleration, S for deceleration (and reverse), A for turning left and D to turn right.

Also, are you saying it is wrong because you don't use it/don't like it?

The controls are the very same.

What he's saying is that the current SAS releases its lock on a given axis depending on user input - but it's a FLIGHT computer. It can't be used properly when the flight controls and the rover controls are the same, but result in different rotations. In this case, the axis used to turn is the roll axis, when it should be yaw. So when turning, SAS releases the yaw axis, but still clamps down the roll axis, the one actually used to turn here - and it sees to it that the rover returns to where it was pointed before turning. Edited July 26, 2013 by Sean Mirrsen

[AustralianFries]

There's a way to override it. It's really just called "momentarily turning it off". Why do you use SAS on a rover? Unless it's only to hold a course, you don't need the control of pitch and roll. Just turn it off while you're maneuvering and you should be fine.

He does have a point. You don't really need SAS to drive a rover anyway.

[Bothersome]

OK I just put my "Flying Cart" on the runway just to prove my point since a picture is worth a thousand words.

BTW, he wanted SAS on a rover to help keep it from tipping over. It's kind of a useful thing to have.

Back to my point. You will notice the nav ball is pointing to the horizon and point east, 90 degrees as placed on the runway. This is how is suppose to be for correct control. The cart is just a rover with wings. I drove it around just a bit to test the SAS and it works exactly as it is supposed to. Without having to take it off, I can turn the craft and SAS doesn't try and turn it back. Why? Because the remote module is facing the correct direction and orientation.

[Tw1]

It shouldn't matter at all what the orientation of the Navball is for roving. But, that was something I was wondering about too.

Just have to use the old technique of tapping it during turning, I think. I used the old ASAS to hold a heading on some rovers, and grounded planes, but they needed you to double tap T to update the orientation.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Tw1

[Brotoro]

The orientation of the control pod is not really the issue.

My BirdDog rover/plane has its controlling cockpit oriented horizontally (so the yaw keys, a and d, can turn it), but I do my controlling from the rover keys remapped to the i, j, k, l keys. With the old Avionics Package on the plane, I could turn with j or l and the rover would carry on going in the direction I pointed it. But with the new Avionics Package, if I use j or l to turn the rover, after I release the key, the rover will slowly move back to its previous heading. If I steer using the a or d key, the rover will stay where I pointed it when I release those keys...but it turns slowly, since it's just using pod torque to do the turn.

What I have to do now when turning using the j or l keys is to tap the f key once I am pointed the way I want...and then the rover keeps going in that direction. I had to do this in the past with other rovers that had the old ASAS on them, so I'm used to this.

I don't know that having an option to disable SAS control on my turning axis would be the best solution, however, since I still want SAS to hold my new heading (and if SAS was selectively disabled on that axis, I wouldn't have that heading lock). But I would like the new SAS to allow rover steering inputs to change the SAS's heading lock (the same way that the yaw, pitch, and roll work) when I release the rover steering control after manually changing the rover's heading.

[MR4Y]

He does have a point. You don't really need SAS to drive a rover anyway.

Yes you do. Remember that using yaw to turn also activates roll.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Well, the old Avionics were specifically pilot assist, so yeah, they'd allow something like this. The new SAS is more strict in that regard. But, yes. If the issue is just in that rover controls don't release the control axis the same way pilot controls do, then it's something of an easy fix for Squad.

Actually, I would even prefer if there was some kind of "rover SAS". It'd use the same logic that the wheels do to know which way to turn, to know which axis is the turn axis, and would adjust its axis lock behavior accordingly.

Yes you do. Remember that using yaw to turn also activates roll.

Not if you're a practical person and have the rover controls rebound to IJKL or the numpad, because using WSAD to control a rover with any reaction wheels at all is a terrible idea.

[MR4Y]

Well, the old Avionics were specifically pilot assist, so yeah, they'd allow something like this. The new SAS is more strict in that regard. But, yes. If the issue is just in that rover controls don't release the control axis the same way pilot controls do, then it's something of an easy fix for Squad.

Actually, I would even prefer if there was some kind of "rover SAS". It'd use the same logic that the wheels do to know which way to turn, to know which axis is the turn axis, and would adjust its axis lock behavior accordingly.

Not if you're a practical person and have the rover controls rebound to IJKL or the numpad, because using WSAD to control a rover with any reaction wheels at all is a terrible idea.

Now imagine that you have to use RCS. IJKL controls translation. In my case, I can't map to any numpads, since I have a 14" laptop.

[Tw1]

Now imagine that you have to use RCS. IJKL controls translation. In my case, I can't map to any numpads, since I have a 14" laptop.

That's a good point. I reckon we'll just have to stick with toggling SAS to steer rovers.

[TheHengeProphet]

Why doesn't anybody just switch to docking mode? This switches to translate only controls without having to set up a new control scheme.

[Kimberly]

Why doesn't anybody just switch to docking mode? This switches to translate only controls without having to set up a new control scheme.

Yeah, I don't get it either. What's the point of SAS at all, if you can keep your rover perfectly level by using docking mode? Then you don't pitch when moving.

[TheHengeProphet]

Actually, there is a point to having SAS on with a rover (particularly ones that might be top-heavy), as bumps can cause them to tip and such. SAS is good for avoiding unintended troubles, even with docking mode. Docking mode basically allows for what is being asked, though you might still run into the yaw-roll issue, so a quick tap to F will reset the SAS direction.