Would donation tabs be appropriate?

[ArkaelDren]

I was just wondering if having a donation tab on some of these great Mods pages, would be within Squads rules and regs, and if the community would feel ok with such a thing. So first, if this is acceptable from Squad, and I cant see how it wouldn't be, could someone make a Poll asking about how the community feels about it. Maybe if we showed some kind of approval, then these guys could set those tabs up and feel like they were not doing something inappropriate. These Mods take a good amount of time and effort to make, and I would be more than willing to donate to the Mod creators I enjoy the most to show my support.

Thx Dren

[stupid_chris]

I don't think it breaks any rule, people are free to do it, it's just a matter of if people will actually want to donate, and if the modder actually wants to receive donations for his work.

[Devo]

I don't think it breaks any rule, people are free to do it, it's just a matter of if people will actually want to donate, and if the modder actually wants to receive donations for his work.

There is actually a rule written somewhere we can't do this, I can't recall where I read it but I do recall reading it.

[stupid_chris]

There is actually a rule written somewhere we can't do this, I can't recall where I read it but I do recall reading it.

Meep, this calls for some forum digging then

[CAPFlyer]

Even if there weren't a rule, it simply doesn't work 99% of the time.

While I know you are simply wanting a way to thank modders for their work, without very strict controls over how it's implemented, it ends up with users making demands of the modders to the point of users filing lawsuits because under both US and International law, taking money for a product (even voluntarily) creates a binding contract, and as such, means that someone can file suit for breach of that contract. Most people forget, that even with tort reform, anyone can file a lawsuit for anything. It has to go before a judge/magistrate to be ruled as "without merit", which means it still requires you to either defend yourself in person or hire a lawyer to do so. That then costs the modder many times more to deal with than what little bit of money he took from that person.

I'm speaking from experience here. While I wasn't the one sued, I know several in the FlightSimulator community who have and I'm aware of people in several other communities that have as well, and it's driven many good modders off because it soured the relationship between all the modders and the users regardless of whether they accepted "donations" or not.

The only reason it works in FS and Train Simulation is because you have very distinct lines in what a group is. There are payware developers who are paid for what they do and there are freeware developers who are not. Freeware developers may accept donations to pay for their web hosting costs because that only creates a contract that they provide a website that works and hosts their products, nothing more. Donationware is a thing of the past. Too many lawsuits and hurt feelings came of it. About 15 years ago, FS was almost crippled because of several payware developers suing freeware developers for breaching the "exclusive rights" agreements they'd entered with manufacturers and airlines and the effects of it has only just recently been fully washed away, but not until after the cancellation of FS11 and Flight!. The Train Simulation community too has had issues because of a certain railroad and its licensing requirements for even freeware releases and it had effects on MS Train Sim 2 and was part of why it failed as well.

I don't want to see KSP go the same way. I have no problem if someone wants to go "payware" for KSP as long as Squad is okay with it. But as long as Squad is providing the forum and download repository for mods, then the only people we should be donating to is Squad and simply making sure to say "thank you" and showing our appreciation for the work the modders have done on their own time and offered to us for no charge.

[czokletmuss]

I don't know how it works in the USA exactly, but there is always a possibility to make a donation (donation =/= payment). By the way, I thought that "crazy Yankees sueing everybody" was just another stupid stereotype - is it really that bad? I mean, sueing because of the video game? If you have some legal basis for it (donating creating biding contract), I would love to take a look at it.

However, the OP kinda forgets that, well, nobody is asking for money (for instance by putting link to his PayPal account). Mods are made by fans for fans and in most cases kind words and the work itself is the sufficent motivation. However, maybe OP should just PM his favourites and ask them directly if he can give them some money?

Edited July 27, 2013 by czokletmuss

[CAPFlyer]

I wouldn't say it was "out of control", but there are enough people whom are willing to go that route, especially in the US with small claims lawsuits (typically under $5000 dollar award request) being very inexpensive to file and typically not fought by lawyers (unless filed in a state where the one party doesn't reside). With small claims suits costing less than $50 to file in most states (and thus the total liability in some states), it can be an attractive way for someone who feels "wronged" (even if the reasons are very suspect) to file suit. One of the things done in an FS case was that a developer filed multiple small claims suits in their home state (which followed the "no fault" rule where if you filed as the plaintiff and you lost you didn't owe for the defendant's costs) against small freeware developers who lived out of state and were unable to fly in or pay for a lawyer to appear in their stead, so the freeware guys simply plead no contest or simply closed shop (thus eliminating the competition for the "payware" developer). Another case, a user sued a small developer who produced "donationware" because they didn't think it fair that because they donated one amount they only got part of a collection while another person who donated a dollar more got the full thing. This resulted in a ruling against the developer (who did fight it) because the judge found that it was not a "normal" business practice to split a collection the way he did where there was no defined donation bracket (i.e. donate $5 you get this, donate $10 you get this). The developer had to give the whole collection to not only that one user, but all others who'd donated at that level prior. While he probably should have simply made 2 packages out of the collection, he didn't and it got him in trouble because of it.

While the total number of lawsuits filed that I'm aware of in the FS community over the years is probably under 200 (there were probably more, but they just didn't make any FS news service), it was less than 10 that made major changes in how the community worked forever and how many games were designed afterwards and how their addons were handled if they allowed modifications. It was these 10-or-so lawsuits that led to what we see today with micro-transactions. It was the move away from donationware and shareware due to those litigations that made it where you either offered something totally for free or you charged for everything because the middle ground was too rife with legal risk.

[Guest]

What I don't get is why all you people want to give away your money so desperately. The modders here are perfectly willing to work for free, kind words and the feeling of accomplishment are a greater reward than many people think. Let's not bring money into this, not everything in this world needs to be paid for. Instead of rambling about donations and stuff just post a nice comment or give the modder a +1 forum reputation for a job well done. Or you could try posting screenshots and fanart related to the mod. There's no need for modder donations and they're legally dodgy, so I think that they're not worth considering. If you guys really have too much money on your hands, donate it to charity, it'll do more good that way.

[Razorcane]

I think donating is silly, to be honest. Mostly because I have a job and I think donations are a lazy excuse to be unemployed.

[Guest]

Yeah. And many modders here are employed. I'm not, but I wouldn't even think about asking for donations. What I do, I do pro publico bono, not for money. I didn't want to release CSS because I wanted to gain anything, but because I wanted you all to have it. Even though it's in a medicore state, it's a fun mod, so why should the dev team have all the fun?

[Greys]

Legally speaking, a donation is a donation, it creates no contract and you receive nothing in return for your donation. If you do receive something that you could not receive without having donated, then it's a purchase that has been mislabeled. In this context you would in most cases be donating to an individual, you would not be donating to the mod, the mod being a product that is available from that individual but completely unrelated to this transaction. You would of course still receive the mod if you want it, but separately, free, and without obligation or benefit to donation.

It's like saying getting a free mint from the movie theater creates a binding contract that the movie will be presented with expected technical proficiency. The mint and the movie are entirely unrelated even if they're both being provided by the same company.

When you donate blood to the Red Cross, you're effectively and legally selling your blood for a cookie and some juice. (how dare you shamelessly devalue your bodily fluids for the good of others!)

All that said, most mods for KSP don't pay anything to continue, with minecraft and other modding community there is no free hosting service and the download rates largely prohibit free accounts on personal hosting services. KSP on the other hand is structured very differently and has a much more open culture about it, allowing mods to distribute purely through services like github, and we have spaceport as much as most of us rag on it. My mods are all hosted on spaceport and mediafire, and I've never had an issue or paid a dime. The only cost to most mod makers in KSP is the time spent making it, and if you didn't feel that was worthwhile, you wouldn't put your time into it to begin with.

the KSP modding community just doesn't have the need for donations.

[Majiir]

Many have requested that I open a donations box. (Captain Skunky even suggested as much on KSPTV.) I haven't, mainly because it's yet another thing to set up, but I'm also not certain it's something I'd want to do. I could use the money, but I'd hate to see people expecting anything more than what they already get. I suppose that's all up to the individual modder, though. I don't think you'd be putting yourself in a legally precarious position, especially if you use a donation service that takes care of some of the basic legalese for you.

[CAPFlyer]

Legally speaking, a donation is a donation, it creates no contract and you receive nothing in return for your donation.

Not totally true. Even your own description is lacking in factual basis because you are making examples that aren't relative to the topic at hand.

For example with the movie - I pay for the ticket to see the movie. That is the binding contract by which I have legal standing to demand a refund if the movie has a technical fault during its showing. Being given the mint, while technically part of the "service" provided as part-and-parcel to the experience in some theaters, is not a contractural item, but there is an expectation created that the mint will be provided in a health-conscious manner in a sealed packet and not be expired or stale. If it is not, I have a right to request another mint, and if the mint makes me sick due to something the movie theater did, then I do have a right to seek damages. But that's a different issue.

In the software environment, there are donations (to a person or group) and there is donationware. What most people consider to be a "donation" is actually "donationware" and a contract IS created in this case. However, most developers don't understand the difference and don't clarify what the donations are for, and thus where the legal problem comes in and what happened in FS. Simply putting a "donate" button on the website isn't enough. There has to be a clear statement as to what the donation is for and what it does or doesn't entitle the donor to. When you donate to the Red Cross, there is a disclamer. When you donate blood, there is a disclaimer on the information sheet you fill out. When you donate to GoodWill, there is a disclaimer. The disclaimer is the contract. It specifies what the donation is being used for and what (if anything) you are entitled to from your donation. As long as the terms of the donation are fulfilled, then there's no issue, but it must be in writing.

This is why I stay away from donations. There's more to it than you think.

[Pigbear]

Not totally true. Even your own description is lacking in factual basis because you are making examples that aren't relative to the topic at hand.

For example with the movie - I pay for the ticket to see the movie. That is the binding contract by which I have legal standing to demand a refund if the movie has a technical fault during its showing. Being given the mint, while technically part of the "service" provided as part-and-parcel to the experience in some theaters, is not a contractural item, but there is an expectation created that the mint will be provided in a health-conscious manner in a sealed packet and not be expired or stale. If it is not, I have a right to request another mint, and if the mint makes me sick due to something the movie theater did, then I do have a right to seek damages. But that's a different issue.

In the software environment, there are donations (to a person or group) and there is donationware. What most people consider to be a "donation" is actually "donationware" and a contract IS created in this case. However, most developers don't understand the difference and don't clarify what the donations are for, and thus where the legal problem comes in and what happened in FS. Simply putting a "donate" button on the website isn't enough. There has to be a clear statement as to what the donation is for and what it does or doesn't entitle the donor to. When you donate to the Red Cross, there is a disclamer. When you donate blood, there is a disclaimer on the information sheet you fill out. When you donate to GoodWill, there is a disclaimer. The disclaimer is the contract. It specifies what the donation is being used for and what (if anything) you are entitled to from your donation. As long as the terms of the donation are fulfilled, then there's no issue, but it must be in writing.

This is why I stay away from donations. There's more to it than you think.

Your comparing paying something to get something. A contract is not created when you give someone money. Also, Not everyone here lives in the same country. Rules may not be the same there. You can't lawsuit somebody for breaking an american law when they live is sweden for example.

[Greys]

If the Swedish company brought their product to america and sold it to you in america you can, Ikea products sold in the US are subject to US laws; but if you bought a table from them in Canada, then you have to sue them in Canada under Canadian laws. International stuff gets silly right quick but generally it falls under the "where it happened" system and the internet is one big pile of exceptions but generally speaking you're still governed by the laws of where the money changes hands and taxed by the borders you cross (though many services like Amazon want you to deal with that yourself). So if you're in sweden, and I'm in america, and you put up a donation bin via Paypal, and paypal processes my donation to you on a server in New York, we're working in New York/America laws with the tax rules and tariffs laid out by whatever trade bloc links the US and Sweden. Unless something silly happens, which is quite likely.

[Kimberly]

I think you guys are too worried. Aside from the unlikelihood of anyone filing a lawsuit over a mod for KSP, someone who clearly lays out what the donation is for (or rather, what it isn't for) will be in the clear. Does it protect you from all frivolous lawsuits? No, nothing can--that is the nature of frivolous lawsuits, they aren't sensible.

[ArkaelDren]

First I just want to say I had no illicit underlying agenda, by asking if it was something this community would be ok with. Second, I am kinda surprised again, how a simple question can be analyzed in so many unique ways. Some of you were kinda born into the Internet era, but for those of us that have had to adjust to the adversity within its boundaries, it can still be a bit of a shock to have such an adverse reaction to such a simple question. Now people are going to need to respond that its, "Not a simple question" with some extravagant intellectually over-toned response.

Their is only one opinion on this matter that was important... The one that would benefit all involved, and that's just not possible anymore. My question was answered even before I asked it, I just didn't realize it was their. Its a matter of feeling Morally contracted to someone due to a donation. This turns the cool gift you guys give to all of us, into an obligated deal. I was merely trying to figure out a way to show my appreciation, by adding a bit of monetary value to the long hours and hard work. Im still a bit surprised by the reaction of this question, that I saw as a simple thing.

I made a post not to long ago basically saying, that in some ways, the creators of these mods are obligated to maintain their mod, or take them down if they are broken and no longer going to be maintained. I was completely off base, and being a pretty old guy I have learned its much more beneficial to accept wisdom from others, than it is to maintain an outdated or incorrect view point.

Thanks for all of the great work you guys have donated to this community.

From Oregon....Dren

[Greys]

It's a nice sentiment, and I'm sure whichever mod maker you have in mind would be honored, it's just that money makes things complicated, and not all users go into stuff like just thinking it'd be nice to help somebody out.

As I said in my first article, with other games like Minecraft, modding ends up being fairly expensive to do for various reasons, so donations and adfly services are fairly necessary for the community to grow and mods to evolve. We're lucky enough for that to not be true for KSP. Perhaps you can lend that mod maker aid in some other way?

[frizzank]

The best way to do this would be to have a separate portfolio website with all of your work on it not just KSP, and on that website have a donate button. This separates the donation from ksp or the mod and puts it directly on supporting the artist or mod creator. Kind of like a tip jar...

PS.

These mods take many man hours to complete, and many of us are working professionals who do this on the side as well as work full time jobs. Some of us do it because they love KSP, others just for the sake of doing it. Personally I would love to quit my job and just make rocket parts all day, but work pays the bills.

So if someone wants to send me some money to make it a little easier to stay up lane one night to build another engine, I am all for it, and I don't see any reason why anyone would have a problem with it....

[czokletmuss]

It would certainly be interesting to observe the effects of donating on the community if more mod makers put a "tip jar" on the frontpage of their mod threads. Few bucks for a cofee or something surely would be nice but, as it was discussed, it could have the effect of feeling entitled to the modder's work, with all the complications that follow. I still think that private message "Hi, take my money 'cause I love your work" is a better solution than PayPal links or something.

[RaendyLeBeau]

On 29.7.2013 at 6:44 AM, frizzank said:

These mods take many man hours to complete, and many of us are working professionals who do this on the side as well as work full time jobs. Some of us do it because they love KSP, others just for the sake of doing it. Personally I would love to quit my job and just make rocket parts all day, but work pays the bills.

So if someone wants to send me some money to make it a little easier to stay up lane one night to build another engine, I am all for it, and I don't see any reason why anyone would have a problem with it

absolutely in your opinion - but as I understand here I can not installing a donate button in my thread insert?

- the official ksp mod provider "course" not supports far as I know, "donate buttons" .. and now has been "kerbalstuff.com" closed .. "donate" were supported there

[daniel l.]

Just saying, mods please don't close this thread, I know its a necro, but its discussion is still currently valid and reviving this thread could save you the hassle of managing redundant threads in the future.

[frizzank]

Donating is completely voluntary. Also it only encourages mod creators to create better mods, and the fact that KSP mods are amazingly rich in depth and scope I don't think many have a problem with this.