Yet another Mechjeb thread (but this time different)

[Johno]

I'm one of the long term Kerbal players. Back in the heady early days I would download any mod that came out. I remember the Sunday Punch pack and Nova's early efforts. Man, they were fun.

Well, that was then and this is now. I don't think I've downloaded any serious mods since version 0.10! And it's been fine, really, because I haven't needed the extra parts (there's plenty now); and the patched conics have made piloting relatively simple.

HOWEVER:

As a player who has landed on the Mun a few times, and even managed Minimus once, I'm now seriously considering installing MechJeb. I've never used it before, and don't really know what it does (except I have a vague idea of it being an autopilot, which might very well be an understatement).

I have 0.21.1 installed on my [very elderly] computer.

So . . convince me. Fans of MechJeb, this is your chance. Tell me why I should put it on, what it does, its cool features.

Also, detractors of MechJeb, tell me what YOU think too.

Two restrictions:

1) If your objection to MechJeb is any variation on "It's cheating", then don't bother posting. I have heard that one, and I understand that some people think that. Message received.

2) Be nice to everyone who responds. Even if you think they're an idiot, give them the benefit of the doubt.

Go.

[hoojiwana]

For why not to get Mechjeb: Whenever you pull off something for the first time, the feeling of accomplishment will likely be very much diminished once you realise that MechJeb did it, not you.

If you want the information readouts that it has, I recommend getting Kerbal Engineer. It's not been updating to 0.21 so the rendezvous information breaks the window, but everything else works fine.

[msyblade]

Pro's

1: It can control perfect ascents, circularizations, rendevous, and landings for you.(with an occasional WTF hiccup.)

2: It does these things using an order of operations to maximize effeciency, which can help newer players learn.

3: Smart ASS. A translation tool that allows you to translate in perfect increments relative to nearly any object/body.

4: It provides all pertinent information to any voyage. TWR, DeltaV breakdown by stages, intercept angles, inclinations, etc.

Con's

1: For some (me) it is hard to keep your hand out of the cookie jar. MJ is capable of completely removing the flight experience. The only downside IMO.

I don't know any reason NOT to try anything. Check it out, it's actually a bit of a learning curve for the first hour or so (Just discerning what the language refers to), but it all makes sense.

[ddavis425]

How about all these MechJeb threads move to General Add-on Affairs.

[regex]

MechJeb is modular so you can disable or enable whatever you want. I don't use it, and probably never will because I enjoy the stock way of flying my rockets and there are other mods that provide the information I want, but many users find MechJeb to be useful in one way or the other so you may as well give it a try if you're seriously thinking about it.

[acealeam]

I'm not a huge fan on the autopilot, and I've used it my fair amount. But the statistics are great. There's no reason not to have it.

Don't like a certain part, dont use it. But I've never heard anyone say that having a predicted aerobraking node is bad.

[rryy]

The maneuver planner and editor are very helpful tools, and even if you don't really like the autopilot form of it. Smart A.S.S. is also useful, along with the aerobraking and landing calculator. For general orbital info, MechJeb does have more statistics, but I would say the Kerbal Engineer Redux is better.

[numerobis]

The only downside to MechJeb that I see is the fact that it's a bit of a CPU hog -- particularly if you have the deltaV stats up.

[Brotoro]

If doing something in KSP ever gets dull (but you still HAVE to do it to accomplish some larger mission...like the 20th time you launched a refueling tanker), then MechJeb is your friend.

[tavert]

It saves time, and lets you be more scientific with your design process. If you're fine-tuning the efficiency of a design, using the ascent autopilot to get it into orbit with the same set of parameters gives you a repeatable way to know for sure that the difference in fuel use was due to a design change, not variability in piloting. And "follow the yellow circle" is not terribly entertaining, at least not for me. Downsides? It has its quirks and occasional misbehavior, but after you get used to what those are and what can cause them, the only other is the degree of complaints and interminable debate it generates.

[Merinsan]

As someone who has only been to the Mun and Minmus, you haven't experienced much of the game. You really should experience the challenge of getting to another planet yourself before you even consider letting Mechjeb do it for you.

[Brotoro]

Downside: I had MechJeb do a rendezvous the other day for the first time... and I nearly laughed myself silly at how wasteful of fuel it was.

[esinohio]

One thing that makes MechJeb nice that other people might not mention is the custom window editor. Having the ability to make my own information windows is fairly handy. Others will point out that this information is available within Kerbal Engineer as well although I'll have to check if you can customize it somehow, I'm really not sure but I know it is there. Both the mods are so well done so enjoy the selection

Of course as the other posts point out all the autopilot features are nice but can take away from the achievement somewhat. Although seeing how it's done, sort of, then doing it on your own can be just as fulfilling in my opinion.

[Johno]

Merinsan:

I get that, but up until now, whilst I have technically KNOWN how to do a transfer to (for example) Duna, I've only really achieved that once, and that time I didn't have enough fuel to complete the landing. Hours of real time effort, and ultimately useless. If I could automate that, the game would become less of a chore and more of a joy.

(Worth mentioning here that I'm a lousy pilot in KSP. )

So is the joy of arriving at another planet greater than the soul-ripping irritation at getting so close yet so far?

Brotoro: You say that it's fuel inefficient. How inefficient - would, oh, a really terrible pilot be better?

[leax256]

there was a great scott manely video I saw yesterday on this very subject. can't seem to find it. not even in my history...

[Eric S]

I think msyblade summed it up fairly well. The only time I consistently beat MechJeb in efficiency is when docking. On the other hand, I've picked up a number of efficiency tricks from mechjeb. MechJeb also tends to be more precise than I am, since it's got better and more precise throttle control. Sometimes, however, MechJeb can get anally precise, and spend more time than you care to trying to hit perfection.

On the other hand, you do need to understand what MJ is trying to do for those occasions where for whatever reason, MJ is doing it wrong.

I'm to the point that I mostly use SmartASS to either execute maneuvers I planned, or to just point certain directions and wing it. I'll let MJ land sometimes, and if the craft is too squirrelly I'll let MJ launch it.

[Brotoro]

Brotoro: You say that it's fuel inefficient. How inefficient - would, oh, a really terrible pilot be better?

In my case, the choice is between wasteful MechJeb and less-wasteful me. So the "terrible pilot" option is not part of the equation. I don't calculate anyone else's equation or dictate their choice. Do what makes it more fun for you.

I had a rule for myself that I would always land on a planet manually first before ever using MechJeb to do so...but that was my way of having fun. There are times when I worry that my skills are getting eroded by "occasionally" using MechJeb (just whenever it's handy to do something boring..."I can quit anytime"). But at every upgrade, before I install the mods, I play without MJ for a while just to be sure I can still do the stuff I claim is old hat (that I normally have MJ do for me). So I was very pleased that I was able to target and land my crew carrier manually at the KSC...and that was even with the unfriendly SAS in version 0.21.0. But we all get our little thrills in our own way.

[spikeyhat09]

if you install mechjeb and use it to do stuff, dont post about your achievements on the forums because achievements that use mechjeb are invalid

[sojourner]

Despite spikeyhat09's opinion, I use Mechjeb and enjoy the game immensely. That being said, right now Mechjeb is not working well. It hasn't had a full going over to work with .21.

[Geschosskopf]

To the OP:

First off, understand that I came to KSP after many years (back to the 1980s in DOS) of playing Orbiter off and on. I also had a cousin who was the honcho in charge of training the shuttle astronauts and he gave me some backstage tours in Houston, including getting to sit in on a simulator exercise for the crew of like the 6th launch, so I know a little bit about what sorts of instrumentation real spaceships have (which is pretty much what you see in Orbiter). So when I got into KSP, my initial reaction was total shock at the utter lack of instrumentation and automation, which are essential components of real spacecraft and high-realism sims thereof.

I have since learned it's quite possible to do everything in KSP without any of these real-world items, or their modded analogs in the form of MJ and the like. You can fly KSP rockets by guess and by God and get away with it. But to them as say MJ and the like are cheats, please be aware that you can only do without them in KSP because KSP is deliberately unrealistic in various ways specifically to allow you to fly rockets with no more instrumentation than the Wright Brothers.

So the question I have is, what's more realistic? Taking a multi-billion dollar rocket to Jool just eyeballing everything and failing countless times (Revert Flight, F5/F9) or adding some instrumentation to do it right the 1st time? Come the day when career mode gets full implementation and we have to start paying for rocket parts and Kerbal funerals, failed launches and botched landings will have lasting consequences, and enough of them will probably make you restart the game from scratch because all your funding gets cut. I bet when that happens, those who scorn MJ now will sing a different tune .

So, all that said, I have no shame at all in putting MJ on every vehicle I make. Even though I do almost all my own flying, I still find it very useful in giving me information I need to make proper decisions. Off the top of my head, here are my main reasons why I think everybody should have MJ (not one of which is an autopilot):

1. It helps while building ships to let you know you've got the right amount of delta-V. Not having MJ, Kerbal Engineer, or some other such aid wastes a lot of time because you're then reduced to launching by trial-and-error.

2. It allows you to type in directly the exact amount of delta-V you want for a given burn on each axis, which is WAY more precise than yanking maneuver node gizmos around. That way, if you personally go to the trouble to calculate the burn needed to transfer to some other planet, or use the web site for that, you can actually use these numbers.

3. It allows you to tweak your ascent profile to get the most out of your current rocket design, projecting the target icon on the navball so you can manually fly this path.

4. It has an RCS balancer feature, which throttles individual thrusters to keep you straight when translating. Thus, even if you're doing all your own docking, at least you don't have to fight unwanted rotation (of which there's always some).

5. You can ask it for a second opinion. That is, you think you should do a burn this way, but you're not sure. So you can ask MJ how it would do that burn, without actually letting it do it, and compare the results.

All these things, IMHO, are functions that would be included in real rockets. Hell, most CARS today have roughly analogous things as standard equipment. None of them fly your rocket for you, all of them are extremely useful and make you a better pilot. In fact, for most aspects of flight, MJ has 2 options: giving you information and guidance, or autopilot.

HOWEVER, something very important to note about the current incarnation (2.0.9) of MJ. Its autopilots DO NOT use the new SAS system in 0.21. This IMHO is a serious weakness because on the whole the new SAS system works better (as keeps things more under control and less wobbly) than MJ, but this is really only an issue in atmospheres. Out in space, MJ is just as stable as SAS.

For example, look at this rocket here:

The top end is a very, very light Kethane-powered jet with a HUGE wing for its size, intended to fly in the thin air of Duna. I honestly did not expect a rocket launch to work for it, due to the center of lift being way up front because of that big wing. I figured I'd have to devise a way to SSTO it off the runway, but because I suck at that, I figured I'd at least try it as a rocket first. So, I got it on the pad, turned on SAS, and lit the fuse. Guess what? Under my manual control, the new 0.21 SAS held it rock solid, even with a couple of docking ports for joints, and it got to orbit no problem at all. It was just another conventional rocket launch. So just for a test, I let MJ's ascent autopilot give it a try, which as mentioned doesn't use SAS. And the thing somersaulted right off the pad, as I had expected to happen to me.

I expect that MJ will soon get patched to use the wonderful new SAS and this difference will disappear. But that affects only the autopilots. If you don't want to use the autopilots, don't. But there are still lots of things that MJ is very useful for.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Geschosskopf

[DChurchill]

if you install mechjeb and use it to do stuff, dont post about your achievements on the forums because achievements that use mechjeb are invalid

On the other hand, if you install MechJeb and use it to do stuff, feel free to post your achievements on the forums, because any opinion of your achievements that doesn't come from yourself is utterly meaningless, and certainly doesn't need to be validated by some self-appointed "achievement validator" on the internet who you'll probably never meet.

That being said, The beauty of MechJeb is that you can use the pieces of it that you want. You can even exclude MJ from loading the pieces that you don't want, so you don't have to even look at them. Engineer is great, but it doesn't have Smart A.S.S.

Edited July 30, 2013 by DChurchill

[The Fog]

I wouldn't say using MJ is a cheat. I used it as a learning tool when I was new to KSP, because the arcane science of orbital maneuver isn't always "google-able".

But soon I discovered MJ isn't always 100% reliable, let alone 100% efficient. So, even with auto-pilot on I kept watching and sometimes I had to frantically hit that "Disengage auto-pilot" button.

I'm not sure about others, but for me MJ tends to freak out if my CPU is under heavy loading.

Since you're saying that you're going to test it on an "elderly" computer, then I guess it won't behave well and the entertainment index should, well, sky-rocket.

The new plugin system makes it very easy to install / uninstall mods so I see no reason why not to try.

And, here's my 2-cents about MJ:

Pros:

P1. Reminds you to turn off RCS when you don't need it.

P2. Launching a refuel craft the 20th time isn't fun.

P3. Docking to a station under 5 frames per second isn't fun neither.

P4. Seriously, manually executing a 10-minute burn isn't fun.

P5. (Except landing de-orbit burns) MJ shows its actions and how they're done right in front of you. It's a great learning tool.

P6. Repeatable results for design optimization.

P7. It's like a Swiss army knife. Many tools inside and let you choose what you want to use.

P8. Flying manually and beating MJ in fuel usage / time spent is very satisfying.

Cons:

C1. Eats through your RCS storage if you forget P1.

C2. Landing, although very precise, uses way too much fuel.

C3. It actually causes wobbles due to over-compensation in almost every actions.

C4. CPU-intensive. Esp if you let too many info window open.

C5. No longer provides ascent performance results in version 2. So I can't judge how efficient my ascent profile is.

C6. Spaceplane guidance is a joke right now.

C7. See P8. MJ is only good for general cases.

C8. (Yet to be tested on 0.21) Sometimes it causes extreme lag if more than 1 MJ part is present on a craft. (Used to happen when I forgot to ditch that MJ part before docking to a space station)

That should be all... Anyway, have fun.

[DChurchill]

C5. No longer provides ascent performance results in version 2. So I can't judge how efficient my ascent profile is.

Yes it does. You have to pick that tab from the customization menu. It's definitely in 2.0.9 as a separate tab, but us still could get those stats my hand selecting them into another window in 2.0.8.

Some of your other cons are definitely valid, though. I've noticed it's a lot more wobbly with .21. It's going to need to be tweaked. Even Smart A.S.S. tends to be a little twitchy at this point. Honestly, it may be partly due to the ship I was using. I had an ASAS ring on it by force of habit which may not play well with the built in SAS of the Mk1-2 pod. Seems like it should make it more solid, but turning off the torque on one of them seemed to settle the ship down some.

Edited July 30, 2013 by DChurchill

[The Fog]

Yes it does. You have to pick that tab from the customization menu. It's definitely in 2.0.9 as a separate tab, but us still could get those stats my hand selecting them into another window in 2.0.8.

Some of your other cons are definitely valid, though. I've noticed it's a lot more wobbly with .21. It's going to need to be tweaked. Even Smart A.S.S. tends to be a little twitchy at this point. Honestly, it may be partly due to the ship I was using. I had an ASAS ring on it by force of habit which may not play well with the built in SAS of the Mk1-2 pod. Seems like it should make it more solid, but turning off the torque on one of them seemed to settle the ship down some.

Oh thanks for the tip!

I hope they'll adapt the new SAS system soon. It works way better.

[Doctadeth]

To the OP.

To mechjeb or not to mechjeb, that is the question. But the answer does not come from those who dislike or like mechjeb. Rather, it must come from your own self. Do you feel like using mechjeb is the answer? It's still a sandbox game, so cheating doesn't exist.

I've mechjebed and I've gone vanilla. Both have their plus and minus points. But only one will be, in the end....the answer.