Yet another Mechjeb thread (but this time different)

[Geschosskopf]

Some of your other cons are definitely valid, though. I've noticed it's a lot more wobbly with .21. It's going to need to be tweaked. Even Smart A.S.S. tends to be a little twitchy at this point. Honestly, it may be partly due to the ship I was using. I had an ASAS ring on it by force of habit which may not play well with the built in SAS of the Mk1-2 pod. Seems like it should make it more solid, but turning off the torque on one of them seemed to settle the ship down some.

The wobbliness is an interesting subject. As I understand things, what MJ is doing in 0.21 (as of 2.0.9) is the same thing it was doing before. It's just a lot more noticeable now because in 0.21, the new SAS system has practically eliminated wobble. But right now, MJ doesn't use the new SAS system. Prior to 0.21, manual and MJ wobbled about the same. Now manual doesn't wobble much if at all, while MJ still does. As I understand things, however, this is just a temporary situation. The MJ modders had to get an 0.21-compatible version out ASAP to satisfy demand and that didn't give them time to study the intricacies of the new SAS system. But they're doing that now so eventually a new version of MJ will come out that uses the new SAS, and no doubt that will be as steady as manual is now.

RCS use is another interesting subject. Prior to 0.21, you could not trust either MJ or SAS with your RCS--both of them essentially vented it to space without getting any real use out of it. That has all changed in 0.21. Neither one of them uses much RCS now, so you can trust both with it. I had rocket designs in 0.20 that needed copious RCS to get to orbit either manually or with MJ. Now I'm going through and stripping out most of their RCS tanks because they only need about 1/4 as much fuel as before, manually or MJ. I attribute this to the greatly increased rigidity of spaceship joints in 0.21. If the ship bends in the middle, a control pod at one end will think the whole ship is moving and thus blow RCS, but if the ship doesn't bend much or at all, the pod is happy.

[-RanZ-]

I love mechjeb but I typically do not utilize the autopilot features except in certain circumstances. If I am doing a single mission to a moon or planet I only use it for the information but sometimes when assembling a multi-part ship to head to laythe I will utilize the rendezvous feature when re-fueling the ship before leaving for my destination as refueling missions are boring when you do them so many times. The great part is you don't HAVE to use the features the mod has if you don't want to. Do whatever is fun for you.

[Kerbonautical]

Everybody seems to have their own reasons for using/not using mechjeb but we shouldn't need to justify our decisions to ourselves. If you don't like autopilot you can use it for providing readouts or even planning your nodes and following them yourself so it can be very hands off if you wish. But the assistance it can provide with tedious jobs such as repeatedly docking numerous spacecraft is worth giving the autopilot mode some thought too.

Personally mechjeb is a godsend for me and I probably have one of the stranger reasons for using it. For some reason KSP taps into a recurring nightmare I had as a child where the focus was incredibly large empty spaces and enormous spherical structures (reverse claustrophobia?) yet Mechjeb provides enough of a disconnected feeling for me to continue playing. Luckily I noticed Manley's tutorials didn't instill that same sense so I decided the autopilot may be able to do the same. Before finding mechjeb I was seriously considering quitting KSP due to the buckets of sweat I'd be producing after a half hour stint despite not actually feeling any sense of panic. I don't really understand it myself to be honest, but MJ is the only reason I can actually play KSP currently.

[CoriW]

Everybody seems to have their own reasons for using/not using mechjeb but we shouldn't need to justify our decisions to ourselves. If you don't like autopilot you can use it for providing readouts or even planning your nodes and following them yourself so it can be very hands off if you wish. But the assistance it can provide with tedious jobs such as repeatedly docking numerous spacecraft is worth giving the autopilot mode some thought too.

Personally mechjeb is a godsend for me and I probably have one of the stranger reasons for using it. For some reason KSP taps into a recurring nightmare I had as a child where the focus was incredibly large empty spaces and enormous spherical structures (reverse claustrophobia?) yet Mechjeb provides enough of a disconnected feeling for me to continue playing. Luckily I noticed Manley's tutorials didn't instill that same sense so I decided the autopilot may be able to do the same. Before finding mechjeb I was seriously considering quitting KSP due to the buckets of sweat I'd be producing after a half hour stint despite not actually feeling any sense of panic. I don't really understand it myself to be honest, but MJ is the only reason I can actually play KSP currently.

You know, nothing temped me to comment on anyones post... Until I read yours, all I have to say is...

That really sucks... I'm sorry you can't play KSP as hands on as the rest of us.

To not even have the option of playing hands on in space...? I can't even imagine.

[Starwaster]

But soon I discovered MJ isn't always 100% reliable, let alone 100% efficient. So, even with auto-pilot on I kept watching and sometimes I had to frantically hit that "Disengage auto-pilot" button.

QFT

Me: "Jesus, MJ, what the hell are you DOING??? Do you see where our periapsis is going? Are you TRYING to get us killed???

MechJeb: "I'm sorry, Starwaster, I want you to know I still have the greatest enthusiasm for the mission."

[orangexception]

I launch support craft during work with MechJeb. Tab over after a coding sprint, load up another one and send it into a parking orbit. If it's a fully autonomous station, then I'll allow these support craft to auto-pilot ascent, maneuver and docking.

Smart A.S.S. is fantastic. I'd take this feature over anything else.

- Find the Maneuver Node (The NavBall really needs some hinting.)

- Hold North

- Parallel to Target

- Kill Rotation

- Surface controls are great for landing/ascent. Set your Heading, Pitch, and Roll and it'll hold.

[Fiddlestyx]

I'm going to compare this game to real life for a second. Even though this is just a game, I try to play it like I am a real Astronaut.

In real life Astronauts DO use a lot of computers to "fly their ships". However, in-case of a computer malfunction, real Astronauts MUST be able to do everything on their own.

So my opinion on MechJeb is this. If I can do a maneuver perfectly on a repeated basis, then it is fine to automate it. If I can't do a maneuver perfectly on a repeated basis, then I need to keep practicing until I can.

I have no problems with using MechJeb if I can do it myself first.

[Geschosskopf]

That really sucks... I'm sorry you can't play KSP as hands on as the rest of us.

To not even have the option of playing hands on in space...? I can't even imagine.

Now, now.... Judge not lest ye be judged. Always remember that no matter how proud you are of your MJ-free KSP skilz, there are plenty of snobs out there who consider KSP to be for the lumpenprolitariate who can't handle Orbiter

Besides, what if you view KSP as more of an engineering game than a flying game? I certainly spend more time in the VAB than I do in space because to me the fun is in designing and building something to do a certain mission. After all, if I design the ship right, then missions are uneventful. Go there, plant some flags, drill for Kethane, take some screenshots, come home. Just another day at the office. And anyway, the intro blurb on the game itself says I'm the head honcho of the whole space program. I'm the guy in the corner office. I pay brave but stupid Kerbals to fly my rockets.

[Epic DaVinci]

I've Been listening to this pathetic war between Users and Non-Users for a while now, and to be honest its laughable. There is so much Elitism on this Forum is shocking.

Anyway Johno,

Here are my thoughts on why I have installed it and use it a lot.

Mechjeb for me opens up new opportunity's. I play my game as a designer, not as a pilot. It has been very helpful when it comes to setting up a rendezvous or planetary transfer (moves which I do not have any interest in planning)

If, for Example, your goal is to build a Station using multiple craft in orbit, then launching 5 or 6 times into orbit becomes tedious and takes the fun out of the game for me. When all i have to do is press a few buttons and my ship puts itself in orbit. That is, of course, that my ship is designed well enough to make it to my chosen location in the first place.

It also provides detailed Delta V stats for each stage should you wish to know this information.

I mostly use it to hold a heading though, such as holding a Retrograde attitude when i am performing a Semi-Manual landing on non atmospheric celestial body.

Oh and if anybody would like to quote this post stating why my views are wrong and that any achievement or goal i reach is invalid because of Mechjeb. Dont bother, because I am not interested in your views.

Hope this helps in your decision Johno.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Epic DaVinci
Robot Ninja's

[Rickenbacker]

You don't HAVE to use the automation features. I use MechJeb mainly to do routine launches and landings, plus hold a heading (prograde/retrograde etc) when maneuvering. The main thing I love about it, though, is the custom info window. I couldn't live without the Delta V meter!

[Splode]

Mechjeb is useful for a number of reasons:

There's a lot of orbital data you can work out very crudely by hand with stock ksp. for example, you know ap, pe, velocity and altitude at a given point, and you can use these to find stuff like orbital period, eccentricity, etc. But it takes a lot of time, knowledge and guestimating. It's data you need if you want to plan an advanced mission. Mechjeb just gives it to you.

Also, the automated features make ion engines worth using. I am not doing a 20 minute burn manually.

[ASnogarD]

I just use the information parts of the mod, the Vessel information in the VAB and the Delta V status, the orbit information when I am launching (being able to see Apo and Peri without going to the map screen is handy), I have not messed around with the rest of the windows but even Scott Manley uses the information sections as they are useful (those or Engineer Redux).

As far as I am concerned if you are against MechJeb and consider it cheating, then you must also disregard every other mod out there, even just the cosmetic ones as they aint vanilla which would be stupid ... just slap on the mod YOU want and enjoy the game, who cares if you cheat or not as it is just a single player game.

[Kerbonautical]

You know, nothing temped me to comment on anyones post... Until I read yours, all I have to say is...

That really sucks... I'm sorry you can't play KSP as hands on as the rest of us.

To not even have the option of playing hands on in space...? I can't even imagine.

I'm hoping in time I'll grow more accustomed to it, Though I have to admit interplanetary missions still stir up some slightly uncomfortable feelings briefly even with MJ. I'm hoping that eventually I'll get used to things within the 100Km distance and then perform all my other maneuvers from the map screen since I found piloting manually relatively simple other than landing and extremely rewarding.

[Starwaster]

I'm hoping in time I'll grow more accustomed to it, Though I have to admit interplanetary missions still stir up some slightly uncomfortable feelings briefly even with MJ. I'm hoping that eventually I'll get used to things within the 100Km distance and then perform all my other maneuvers from the map screen since I found piloting manually relatively simple other than landing and extremely rewarding.

I have a similar situation with launches, but not (as near as I can tell) as bad a problem as you have.

My problem is that if I do a launch with a viewpoint too close to the rocket I start imagining that I'm a technician who somehow got caught clinging to the spacecraft during launch because nobody noticed me there and I couldn't get to safety in time.

If that happens.. what the HELL do you do??? I can only imagine that the only action that offers any hope of survival at all would be to leap from the rocket before it climbs high enough that death becomes 100% certain. But if you're leaping from something as tall as a multistory rocket, what are your chances of survival? Better than 100% I would hope but still pretty slim.

But what if you were so petrified with fright that you couldn't even bring yourself to let go? To leap? Both scenarios scare the crap out of me...

[draeath]

The sound* from the engine would kill you, at that proximity.

EDIT: well, the sound from a Saturn V would. Just food for thought

* - well, more like concussion waves at that point. Hard to call it sound when it's at the level of the concussion waves from explosions!

[DChurchill]

The sound* from the engine would kill you, at that proximity.

And if that didn't get you, the giant blowtorch at the end would.

I saw a Shuttle launch from the causeway at KSC which is about 6.5 miles. Loud. Very loud. The pops it made we like shockwaves themselves.

Edited July 30, 2013 by DChurchill

[Starwaster]

The sound* from the engine would kill you, at that proximity.

EDIT: well, the sound from a Saturn V would. Just food for thought

* - well, more like concussion waves at that point. Hard to call it sound when it's at the level of the concussion waves from explosions!

I'm trying... I'm trying REALLY hard to derive some comfort from that but it's just not working...

[Quantum Jim]

I'm recreating an ISS replica (who hasn't?) and decided for a 28° inclination (so eventually I can cost effectively launch from KSC 2.... someday). How do I launch into a precise heading without mods like MechJeb? Alas my hand is not so steady. I neglected MechJeb on the final stage, but it's kinda required for the initial stages.

[draeath]

Unfortunately without mechjeb you have to eyeball it, because the stock game simply does not expose enough information to you.

You don't have to let it fly you, btw. There's an ascent guidance mode that does nothing except place the target marker on your nav ball - kind of like an aircraft's autopilot in director mode (which tells you where your pitch/roll/altitude/speed should be, but doesn't actually do anything on it's own)

[noxcarakus]

It's about 6 of one and half dozen of the other, really you won't know if you like MJ or not until you use it. Personally I like MJ, and still get the sense of achievement because I will not use the auto pilot until I have successfully performed manually what I want it to do, like land on the mun or transfer to Jool, and after that then auto pilot all the way, especially for the monotonous twenty launches of rockomax fuel tanks to get my refueling station topped off. Try it out and if you don't like it, don't use it, if you do, then great. Last thing is don't get wrapped up in the debate, because it will never end, and neither side will ever win.

[rdfox]

The sound* from the engine would kill you, at that proximity.

EDIT: well, the sound from a Saturn V would. Just food for thought

* - well, more like concussion waves at that point. Hard to call it sound when it's at the level of the concussion waves from explosions!

Per Charlie Bolden's introduction to the Shuttle Launch Experience ride at KSC:

"If you're within 400 yards of the Shuttle at launch, the heat will kill you. If you're within 800 yards, the blast and sound will kill you. And if you're within a mile or so, the alligators will kill you--those low-frequency vibrations really get them stirred up."

As a side note, the reason that the VAB and VIP viewing stands at Complex 39 are about 3.5 miles from the pads is that was calculated to be the minimum safe distance if a fully-fueled Saturn V exploded on the pad--a pad explosion would have had an explosive yield of two kilotons (about one-tenth of the Nagasaki atomic bomb), and anyone closer than about three miles would be guaranteed to be killed by the blast. This meant that some of the bravest men in the program were the pad crew, who watched the launch from about 1.5 miles away, ready to jump back in the car and race to the pad to safe the booster in the event of a pre-ignition abort...

[NeoMorph]

Forget all the mechjeb automation features... the best part of Mechjeb is SmartAss and all the lovely data panels... like Orbit Info. When taking off I don't have to keep skipping to the map mode and clicking of the AP icon just to find out how high my rocket is going. Being able to see your Apoapse and Periapse from the ship view is essential. You are flying manually but using MJ to give you the data you need.

[regex]

Forget all the mechjeb automation features... the best part of Mechjeb is SmartAss

The best part about Smart A.S.S. is that you actually have to learn something to use it effectively.

[PakledHostage]

I've Been listening to this pathetic war between Users and Non-Users for a while now, and to be honest its laughable. There is so much Elitism on this Forum is shocking.

I have been trying to resist responding to your post, but I've lost the battle...

With all due respect, I get tired of the accusations of elitism. You are in a forum with an above average percentage of people with strong physics and math backgrounds. Why is it "elitist" if those people want to do a little math or engineer a solution to a problem using only the limited tools available in the stock game?

Nobody would accuse artists (such as those who make the parts we all enjoy) of being elitist for practicing their passion. Nobody would accuse actors or writers of elitism for doing the same. Why then, is it acceptable to criticise people who are talented in mathematics or the sciences in general for enjoying their passion?

There will always be some in any area of talent who really are elitist, but the vast majority of posts I read on these forums are just "sciency" people doing what they love.

[annallia]

If doing something in KSP ever gets dull (but you still HAVE to do it to accomplish some larger mission...like the 20th time you launched a refueling tanker), then MechJeb is your friend.

^^ This.

Personally I treat it as a navigation computer. I use it to plot courses for me, but I do the flying myself. The only time I use the auto pilot functions are on RC ships like my refueling satellites. I have a vivid imagination that lets me come up with my own missions and I can stick to my own rules, part of making that more real however is injecting realism wherever I can. As such anything that fires without a kerbal on board should be piloted via auto pilot.

I have been trying to resist responding to your post, but I've lost the battle...

With all due respect, I get tired of the accusations of elitism. You are in a forum with an above average percentage of people with strong physics and math backgrounds. Why is it "elitist" if those people want to do a little math or engineer a solution to a problem using only the limited tools available in the stock game?

Nobody would accuse artists (such as those who make the parts we all enjoy) of being elitist for practicing their passion. Nobody would accuse actors or writers of elitism for doing the same. Why then, is it acceptable to criticise people who are talented in mathematics or the sciences in general for enjoying their passion?

There will always be some in any area of talent who really are elitist, but the vast majority of posts I read on these forums are just "sciency" people doing what they love.

The problem comes when some of those people decide to bash the ones who do use mechjeb or other mods. When they do that, it becomes elitism.