[0.25]KSP Interstellar (Magnetic Nozzles, ISRU Revamp) Version 0.13

[BrickedKeyboard]

Ehhmmm, why do (the Stock) solarpanels now produce Waste Heat?

That is a bit unrealistic, solarpanels Energyproductions makes no waste heat :-)

Agree. It took me a couple days, but I now realize what is unrealistic about Fractal_UK's waste heat model. As I understand it, only pods with heat dissipation and radiators vent waste heat. The solar panels themselves do not radiate away waste heat, nor do other ship components. That is unrealistic.

[Kenken244]

The ship does get a small amount of heat radiation based on its mass.

Also, I think you may be wrong about the proportions of hydrogen to oxygen you get from electrolysis. While it is true that water is only about 1/8th hydrogen by mass, since electrolysis is the inverse reaction of combustion, It should produce hydrogen and oxygen in the same proportions as necessary for rocket engines.

[forsaken1111]

Agree. It took me a couple days, but I now realize what is unrealistic about Fractal_UK's waste heat model. As I understand it, only pods with heat dissipation and radiators vent waste heat. The solar panels themselves do not radiate away waste heat, nor do other ship components. That is unrealistic.

All craft have a (quite generous) passive waste heat radiation.

[ExEvolution]

I agree that waste heat on solar panels is unrealistic, and I think that it shouldn't even be there because solar panels don't produce megajoules for use with the mods items. He probably only added waste heat to solar panels because of the microwave transmitter

Although its not that bad because one of the smaller extending radiators is enough to deal with multiple gigantor xl solar panels in a vacuum, it is still adding weight to the ships you send up in the early game because of the need for those radiators

[forsaken1111]

So much whining over solar panel heat... its not even a difficult thing to deal with.

And calling it 'unrealistic' is a real laugh. Solar panels IN REAL LIFE (realistic!) DO GENERATE HEAT.

Edit: If we're debating 'realism' so much why not add in heating from sun exposure? Real spacecraft have to deal with that as well. It is a significant source of heat when you have no atmosphere to protect you. People keep thinking that space is cold, but its actually rather difficult to lose heat in space. There is nothing to transfer heat to (convection) so you have to rely on thermal radiation.

Edited December 1, 2013 by forsaken1111

[Goonswarm]

I am having difficulty setting up a power network. My ultimate goal is to launch using the Ion engines and their amazing thrust but huge power demand. I am using these vehicles to generate and transfer power, but for the life of me I don't get any power on my receivers.

Any suggestions or help would be much appreciated.

I also have a ship in space with a transmitter and solar panels.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Goonswarm

[Fail-Man 3D]

I am using these vehicles to generate and transfer power, but for the life of me I don't get any power on my receivers.

Adding a stock solar panel fixed this for me.

Edit: Just noticed that you have the transmitter in relay mode instead of transmit mode. Try changing it to transmit mode.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Fail-Man 3D
Hooray for sleep deprivation...

[vardicd]

They will heat up on the sun side and cool down on the night side.

That's what I expected, but heat production isn't consistent. With both of them on the ground, in sunlight, sometimes one will generate waste heat, sometimes both will, sometimes neither will.

[Myrten]

I am having difficulty setting up a power network. My ultimate goal is to launch using the Ion engines and their amazing thrust but huge power demand. I am using these vehicles to generate and transfer power, but for the life of me I don't get any power on my receivers.

Any suggestions or help would be much appreciated.

I also have a ship in space with a transmitter and solar panels.

You should use use 'Activate Transmitter' button instead of 'Activate Relay'

[Fractal_UK]

Also, I think you may be wrong about the proportions of hydrogen to oxygen you get from electrolysis. While it is true that water is only about 1/8th hydrogen by mass, since electrolysis is the inverse reaction of combustion, It should produce hydrogen and oxygen in the same proportions as necessary for rocket engines.

Not quite - most hydrolox rocket engines actually run rich in Liquid Hydrogen relative to their combustion ratios, this is because having more hydrogen in the reaction mass lowers the average molar mass of the propellant increasing specific impulse. That is why even if you use RealFuels, which has realistic densities and fuel mixing ratios, electrolysis will give you more oxygen and less hydrogen than you ideally need.

The difference is much bigger in stock KSP but then I have no idea where those ratios came from. I prefer to try and base numbers on something vaguely physical where possible in preference to making them up.

Edit: I've also fixed the issue Scott Manley discovered in the most recent video. It appears that stock static panels (which interestingly still use the ModuleDeployableSolarPanel class) were "retracting" in response to WasteHeat buildup, stopping them generating both power and heat. I'm surprised the static panels are capable of this behaviour but anyway, I've added my own code to check for this now.

In other news I'm looking at removing the distinction between the phased array microwave transmitters and receivers, letting you use either model to transmit or receive but not both at the same time.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Fractal_UK

[Donziboy2]

In other news, I have made some progress in a new Reactor/Gen datasheet.

My plan is to put the Reactor/gen, radiator, engine data all in one excel sheet, and maybe a few helpful calculators and make it available for download.

Edit....

Fractal_UK, I have been looking at the radiators, is the crude picture below accurate to how wasteheat functions, I have not looked at craft convection/radiation.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Donziboy2

[Fractal_UK]

No, the reactor generates WasteHeat equal to its thermal power, the generator consumes WasteHeat equal to the amount of electrical power it produces, so say your generator is 20% efficient, 20% of the thermal power becomes electrical power and 80% of it becomes WasteHeat.

Some things that consume the electrical power are also modelled to be less than 100% efficient, so some of those take in their electrical power and produce a proportion of WasteHeat. There is no fixed conversion there though.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Fractal_UK

[Donziboy2]

Hmm, sounds like a full spreadsheet may be a monster.

Guess Ill stick to the reactor/gen + engine data.

[Eadrom]

In other news, I have made some progress in a new Reactor/Gen datasheet.

My plan is to put the Reactor/gen, radiator, engine data all in one excel sheet, and maybe a few helpful calculators and make it available for download.

Will you be including tables for upgraded reactors with stock generators?

I like the addition of the lifetime power info.

[db48x]

Hmm, sounds like a full spreadsheet may be a monster.

Guess Ill stick to the reactor/gen + engine data.

It shouldn't be too difficult to come up with a fairly simple explanatory graph along the lines of the one you've posted. I suppose by spreadsheet you mean that you intend to produce a device which will enable the user to predict in advance how much waste heat they will need to be able to dissipate, and how the number of radiators they use will affect the efficiency of their generators. If so, let's leave that to one side; I suggest that the best way to go would be a new UI in the editors rather than a spreadsheet.

So, the graph. On the left are our (local) sources of heat, reactors and solar panels. On the right is the great sink: all of space-time, represented in miniature (well, all of it within your light-cone, but we can abstract that detail away). In between are all the artifices of human ingenuity which either alter the energy flowing from source to sink from one form to another or which performs some useful task using that energy. Most of these artifices do not connect directly to the reactors, instead drawing electrical power from a generator. Similarly, these artifices are only capable of dumping a small quantity of their waste heat directly to the great sink; the bulk of it must go out through a radiator designed specifically for that purpose. Each connection is sized in proportion to the quantity of energy flowing across it, and when the sum of the energy entering at the left is greater than the sum of the energy leaving to the right then the craft must shut down some or all of its systems lest it suffer some damage. (That damage, incidentally, would serve to rapidly increase the rate at which the craft can dump waste heat directly into the universe; the rules of the game do not allow you to remain in an unbalanced state forever, or indeed for very long.)

Now, the reason why I suggest that this not be a spreadsheet is that there is a clever feedback mechanism built into the rules of the universe. When the graph is unbalanced, the first thing that happens is that the internal temperature of the craft begins to rise; it is retaining waste heat. This causes the craft and it's radiators to be more efficient; they can dump heat out into the universe more quickly. Eventually, the craft will reach equilibrium and the heat released will exactly equal the heat absorbed. Your goal as a spacecraft designer is to arrange things so that the entire craft does not need to heat up to the same temperature as the inside of your antimatter reactor in order to dissipate the heat released by that same antimatter reactor.

Fractal_UK: an in-game UI that drew this graph and let you see how the energy flows will change as you turn various components on and off would blow everyone's socks off.

[jpinard]

Fractal-UK,

Please don't take offense as I think your mod is amazing, but is there any chance you could change that solid blue-purple engine cone into something that's a particle effect instead? It just looks so fake. If you can't change it to something that's like the ion drive or a blue flame exhaust, maybe change it so it's much more translucent? Like a transparency value of 85%?

Thanks

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

What governs the output level of the reactors between their 30% and 100% modes? They seem to do their own throttling when I'd really like to force them to full power for certain operations. (Like when doing a Vista burn and they doggedly want to run at reduced output mode.)

[Donziboy2]

Will you be including tables for upgraded reactors with stock generators?

I like the addition of the lifetime power info.

So far I have done, no upgrade, gen upgrade, and both, I have not unlocked the upgraded fusion so I just have stock fusion right now. I cant see doing the reactor before the gen since its further into the tech tree. I can add it, but I will have to make a new career and hack the science in to go that route.

I just rebuilt most of the Plasma Thruster tables today also.

[Fractal_UK]

What governs the output level of the reactors between their 30% and 100% modes? They seem to do their own throttling when I'd really like to force them to full power for certain operations. (Like when doing a Vista burn and they doggedly want to run at reduced output mode.)

Demand governs the output, so you should always have enough power to keep your equipment running. The vista always uses the same power regardless of throttle (the throttle is controlling Isp rather than power) anyway so you shouldn't have to worry about having to run at reduced power either.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Fractal_UK

[power5000]

I'm still having trouble with the megnetometer I've deleted my install and re-installed still the science button does not appear.

[Fractal_UK]

I'm still having trouble with the megnetometer I've deleted my install and re-installed still the science button does not appear.

Got a KSP.log file? Do you have any mods installed that makes any changes to the stock science system?

[Sokar408]

Will science labs generate science even when you ain't piloting the craft?

[Fractal_UK]

Will science labs generate science even when you ain't piloting the craft?

Yes but you will need to switch back to your science labs before the retroactive science will be added, it should give you a message telling you how much has been added.

[Eadrom]

So far I have done, no upgrade, gen upgrade, and both, I have not unlocked the upgraded fusion so I just have stock fusion right now. I cant see doing the reactor before the gen since its further into the tech tree. I can add it, but I will have to make a new career and hack the science in to go that route.

I just rebuilt most of the Plasma Thruster tables today also.

I can see (and will do myself) people unlocking Fusion Power before Experimental Electronics to unlock the stock fusion reactors. So info on un-upgraded fission and fusion reactors would be useful to those that choose to go that path instead of unlocking the better generators first.

[power5000]

Here is the log

http://www.filedropper.com/ksp

I have the science overview and station science those are the only science related mods I have.