[0.25]KSP Interstellar (Magnetic Nozzles, ISRU Revamp) Version 0.13

[ctbram]

It's not the relays that are over heating. I power the thing with a pair of beamed power receivers. Before I upgraded my power station network I was beaming 30GW and two small flod out readiators were enough to handle this power. With two additional stations online now I am receiving over 60GW of power and even just one of the receivers active and reception set to 1 is saturating the radiators and the receiver shuts down then I have no power to drive my comm dishes or keep the battery charged and the whole system shuts down.

It seems reducing the reception to one does not affect the waste heat production at all. Before I added the two additional stations are was receiving 20GW and with two radiators I was sitting at about 50% wasteheat. After adding two additional power stations incoming power went up to 60GW and logic suggested if I dialed reception down to 30% I'd be at about the same waste heat production but that does not seem to be the case. Even at reception set to 1 I am overheating causing the beamed receivers to shut down..

Edited April 26, 2014 by ctbram

[Kinglet]

My kerbals are experiencing high radiation levels on the launchpad. Is that normal?

[JeffreyCor]

My kerbals are experiencing high radiation levels on the launchpad. Is that normal?

Pretty much, and also irrelevant as it has no effect at this time. It is just something in place that will be used in a future version (and subject to tweaking between now and then of course)

[smunisto]

I am sorry, but I can't seem to understand something.

I am yet to deploy refineries around and I have been toying with resources and resource storage parts today. I asked before and was told that no resources are tweakable into the parts. IF the parts are empty, that is. If the part comes full it is only logical for it to be tweakable.

Just thinking that I can tweak values in the VAB destroys all my motivation to deploy refineries. Some may say it's a question of roleplay. However I am not such a person, I like to achieve things through progress and careful planning.

I will probably give a very simple example(or it will just show that I have not understood the flowchart I am about to link, but never mind). Here it goes:

This is the 3.75 refinery:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ure9ne3l8cvmh6s/Screenshot%202014-04-26%2021.28.27.png

As you can see, the resources are tweakable.

Can someone describe a specific use for a refinery? Other than producing the stock KSP resources, which I'd say is useful for refuelling depots around Jool, Bop, etc.

I have not checked all, of course, since I don't even know all possible reactions, but I gave a quick look at the resources in this chart:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b0h1c3fl61eo943/g6pyZnU.png

And all of them are available out of the box. Yes, of course, the raw materials need to be gathered(even though you can tweak them in the parts from the VAB), but UF4, or UN, or TFh4 for example have those small "bottle-tank" parts.

They weigh less than the refinery, contain ready-to-use resource(rather than raw materials in need for refining and processing). What is the incentive to get a refinery on your ship, rather than just plop 3-4 tanks full of the prepared resources?

My only example from personal experience would be my little power station above Kerbin, it has 4 Akula reactors. I was planning to dock a refinery with it, in order to reprocess the fuel, until I saw that I can just bring a ship with 10-20 Uranium nitride tanks, that weigh 0.6 each, to the station and refuel the reactors right away.

I guess as a new KSPI player, who still hasn't unlocked any upgrades or tier 2 reactors and tech, I can't see the end-game use for refineries.

I am sure my questions seem awfully dull. Please do not misunderstand me, I enjoy the complexity of the mod, just wish to keep it that way - complex.

Edited April 26, 2014 by smunisto

[Vendan]

It's not the relays that are over heating. I power the thing with a pair of beamed power receivers. Before I upgraded my power station network I was beaming 30GW and two small flod out readiators were enough to handle this power. With two additional stations online now I am receiving over 60GW of power and even just one of the receivers active and reception set to 1 is saturating the radiators and the receiver shuts down then I have no power to drive my comm dishes or keep the battery charged and the whole system shuts down.

It seems reducing the reception to one does not affect the waste heat production at all. Before I added the two additional stations are was receiving 20GW and with two radiators I was sitting at about 50% wasteheat. After adding two additional power stations incoming power went up to 60GW and logic suggested if I dialed reception down to 30% I'd be at about the same waste heat production but that does not seem to be the case. Even at reception set to 1 I am overheating causing the beamed receivers to shut down..

Yeah, the code is broken.

https://github.com/FractalUK/KSPInterstellar/blob/master/FNPlugin/MicrowavePowerReceiver.cs#L278

It scales the power when it writes it to the display variable, but all the power input and waste heat is done with the unscaled values. Easy to test, just make a ship with a single receiver and mess with the reception bar while the power panel is up. The module will show changing power output but the panel will stay at full no matter what.

[Fractal_UK]

Tweakable resources in the refinery, full Uranium and Thorium tanks, etc are my way of abstracting Kerbal civilisation. NASA, for example, does not conduct mining operations on Earth to get the resources it needs, it simply buys them like every other company that needs particular resources.

So yes, you can just gather resources in tanks and send them up over and over again, launching repetitive resupply missions. That's fine for operations in Kerbin orbit, even on the Mun or Minmus but if you want to build a base on Laythe or Duna, do you want to have to fly 9 month or year long supply missions every time your base needs something new? It's easier to extract those resources with infrastructure you have locally and then you don't need to keep going back to Kerbin.

The only time that resource availability in the VAB actually matters is when the resource is actually in short supply or impossible to find on Kerbin. For example, you don't get Helium-3 or Antimatter in the VAB because they simply aren't available in useable quantities. Tritium is the iffy case because it is available but it's very rare and expensive, which is why it comes in small doses. In theory, you can just launch lots of parts with the little doses and combine them all together but since you have nuclear reactors it's probably easier to take the intended approach and use Lithium to breed it.

[Deredere]

For example, you don't get Helium-3 [...] in the VAB because they simply aren't available in useable quantities.

B... but it is. It's like 500 dollars a liter or something absurdly cheap like that.

[Vendan]

B... but it is. It's like 500 dollars a liter or something absurdly cheap like that.

HAHAHA... it's like $30,000 per gram, where as lithium is like $7,500 per TON

[Deredere]

HAHAHA... it's like $30,000 per gram, where as lithium is like $7,500 per TON

Yes, and how many grams do you think are in a liter of Helium?

Also, what do you think a space program budget is?

[Deredere]

Also, while I'm here being a jerkoff, it is just me or are the KSPI parts take a lot longer to load than other parts suddenly? My framerate is fine, but trying to place multiple radiators in the VAB or waiting for something with 6 generators to load is terrible.

[Rabada]

Yes, and how many grams do you think are in a liter of Helium?

Also, what do you think a space program budget is?

off the top of my head, a mole of helium would weigh 4g, so a liter would weigh what, an eighth of a gram?

Edit:

Also, while I'm here being a jerkoff, it is just me or are the KSPI parts take a lot longer to load than other parts suddenly? My framerate is fine, but trying to place multiple radiators in the VAB or waiting for something with 6 generators to load is terrible.

Actually I have been noticing this lately, mostly with radiators. I have KSP on a SSD drive so everything usually loads really quick.

[Vendan]

Yes, and how many grams do you think are in a liter of Helium?

Also, what do you think a space program budget is?

Depends on the pressure. At stp, somewhere around 0.09 grams, or $2700 per liter.

At cryogenic liquid pressures, around 70.85 grams, or $2,125,500 per liter.

Either way, lithium breeding makes more sense. Keep in mind, current commercial usage of tritium is 400 grams a year, and the USA has only made a total of 225kg of tritium, of which all but 75kg has decayed. It's so rare, that fusion experiments are having to carefully regulate it's usage, and are desperately trying to breed it as part of their experiments http://www.iter.org/mach/tritiumbreeding

[Fractal_UK]

I make the current market price around $11million/kg. The only viable source for that Helium-3 is thermonuclear weapons, which contain supplies of tritium and over time that tritium decays to Helium-3 and needs to be replaced with fresh tritium. The US consumes about 8kg of Helium-3 per year and you really need many many kilograms for a viable reactor.

Essentially their entire supply could provide a little start-up fuel for one fusion reactor.

It would be nice if there were some kind of quota system for resources, so you'd have some global pool in the VAB for each resource and that global supply would regenerate at different rates depending upon how rare the resource was. Maybe that's something I should investigate.

[Vendan]

heh, just wait for budgets, then you'll have to pay tons for the rare resources, or breed it yourself and possibly make money by selling it back

[Deredere]

Depends on the pressure. At stp, somewhere around 0.09 grams, or $2700 per liter.

At cryogenic liquid pressures, around 70.85 grams, or $2,125,500 per liter.

Either way, lithium breeding makes more sense. Keep in mind, current commercial usage of tritium is 400 grams a year, and the USA has only made a total of 225kg of tritium, of which all but 75kg has decayed. It's so rare, that fusion experiments are having to carefully regulate it's usage, and are desperately trying to breed it as part of their experiments http://www.iter.org/mach/tritiumbreeding

Yeah, and the KSPI reactors measure their stuff in grams it seems. So filling a small fusion reactor full of He-3 will run them maybe a hundred grand.

Filling a large one would be mildly problematic - financially, not logistically. Maybe 12 million dollars for a top-off, which would still be like a 1/100 the budget of a significant mission.

And the Tokamaks choke on He-3 anyway.

Actually I have been noticing this lately, mostly with radiators. I have KSP on a SSD drive so everything usually loads really quick.

Radiators are the worst for me, but the generators/fusion reactors do it too. Haven't tested placing bunches of anything else.

EDIT: Wait wat

Oh, is that in tons? I guess that would make it awkward then.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Deredere

[Fractal_UK]

heh, just wait for budgets, then you'll have to pay tons for the rare resources, or breed it yourself and possibly make money by selling it back

Is it confirmed there will be a cost for resources, do you know?

[Vendan]

Hehe, my mistake, I was looking at tritium, not HE-3, but it's roughly the same costs and densities. Interstellar still has a problem with he-3 though, cause of seeming lack of tritium decay while unfocused.

- - - Updated - - -

Is it confirmed there will be a cost for resources, do you know?

Can't say, but would be willing to bet a mod could add it.

[g00bd0g]

Maybe you have no power attached?

Maybe you have no empty container attached?

Maybe you have no controlling part attached?

Maybe i forgot something ?

I think have lots of power

There is still room in the container

I have a controlling part

I can do all the other processes, mine TH4 and UH4, and it seems to work as I would expect.

I just can't seem to figure out how to actually "extract" resources.

[ArcFurnace]

Ohhhh, that's because the resource isn't available where you have it landed. Some of the resources are only found in certain places. Lithium is only found in ocean water by default and it's pretty dilute, the Water Extractor needs to be either splashed down in an ocean or near a deposit of ice it can bake out of the soil on some planets without liquid water (don't think there's land-bound water on Kerbin right now, although it might be reasonable for there to be some). Alumina is found in the regolith of certain planets/moons, ammonia you can extract from the environment is only in one or a few places iirc, one of them being the oceans of Laythe.

Land that refinery on the Mun and you should get better results with the Alumina Miner, for example.

EDIT: Full list from checking the resource data files.

Ground-extractable water is found on Duna (more nearer the ice caps), Minmus (mostly in the icy flats), the Mun (a few specific craters near the poles that are shaded enough to retain ice), and Vall. Oceans on Kerbin, Eve, and Laythe all also contain water.

Ammonia is only found in the oceans of Laythe (and also in the atmosphere of Jool, but you need the atmospheric scoops for that, not a refinery)

Lithium is found only in the oceans of Kerbin, Eve, and Laythe in very low concentration.

Alumina is found on Ike, the Mun, and Tylo (more concentrated in some spots, but pretty much everywhere has a decent amount).

Fractal, is Vall's groundwater resource map supposed to be a 14x13 pixel white square as opposed to the 160x120 grayscale bitmaps used for other resources?

Edited April 26, 2014 by ArcFurnace

[Einarr]

After more testing, it seems my issues with fusion reactors shuttong down at 10k+ timeaccel are a result of WasteHeat jumping around when it should be stable. It was jumping over the point at which various things shut down automatically. As an intirim fix, I will probably have to add more radiators to my ship...perhaps even one or more fission reactors to power the ship while coasting, on-orbit, or otherwise idle. Any idea which tier of fission reactors (upgraded) should produce more tritium while running at 25%?

[Fractal_UK]

Fractal, is Vall's groundwater resource map supposed to be a 14x13 pixel white square as opposed to the 160x120 grayscale bitmaps used for other resources?

Yes, it's one of my attempts to be a bit sparing with valuable texture memory. The tiny white square simply means that Vall has lots of water everywhere. The other resource maps do vary in size depending upon how much detail I'm going for.

[Atrius129]

@Fractal_UK

Still loving your mod. One thing has been bothering me though. I have been becoming increasingly more reliant on Antimatter for my vehicles. The problem is that my comp isn't that great anymore so I have to keep part counts down, and having another craft near the launch pad really affects my load times. It also makes testing new craft a lot harder since I have to dock my fuel rover up every time I want to launch with AM.

As a solution, I was thinking if it would be possible to collect the antimatter from recovered craft that have landed on Kerbin. A new resource (like science) would have to be made as a token for AM; any time you recover a landed craft the AM or He3 on your craft would get added to your persistent save file. That way, on ships you are launching, you could right click an antimatter tank (while the ship status is "landed on Kerbin") and click a button to add some antimatter to that tank. I'm thinking a similar mechanism to the "retrofit" button that subtracts science from your total pool. I don't know if it would be possible to add AM from the VAB with this method.

A workaround I am considering doing is modifying the AM containers to start with 10000 AM. This would let me use my spacecraft, but wouldn't really be enough to power the MW network. I would still drop an AM tanker periodically to retain balance.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Atrius129
Clarification change

[phoenix_ca]

After more testing, it seems my issues with fusion reactors shuttong down at 10k+ timeaccel are a result of WasteHeat jumping around when it should be stable. It was jumping over the point at which various things shut down automatically. As an intirim fix, I will probably have to add more radiators to my ship...perhaps even one or more fission reactors to power the ship while coasting, on-orbit, or otherwise idle. Any idea which tier of fission reactors (upgraded) should produce more tritium while running at 25%?

A better solution for that issue might be to pick-up Near Future propulsion and ditch all but the batteries, capacitors, and the plugin itself (or keep the tanks too if you feel like tweaking them so they're useful in KSPI; I do, and delete the engines and reactors because, well, KSPI already has that). Then you can use the fusion reactor to store piles of EC in a capacitor to be used as a back-up should the reactor shutdown. If it does and you run out of EC, dump the capacitor and presto, you're back in business.

[CCoops11]

I have a bit of a strange question. My only way to download mods is by using my cell, and it seems I cannot use the proper Interstellar tech tree without having Internet connection. I really want to play career mode with the right tech tree. Is there an alternative way to download the tree.cfg file?

[smunisto]

Tether your mobile to the PC and share it's connection while it dl's the cfg?