[0.25]KSP Interstellar (Magnetic Nozzles, ISRU Revamp) Version 0.13

[Fractal_UK]

As someone who just installed this mod (due to seeing scott's video) a lot of it isn't very intuitive, some exploration is fine before you know what to do but it should be somewhat directed, I had no idea how the science transfer worked and many of the parts were a complete mystery to me.

There is a fine line between leaving players free to explore, and making players annoyed at having no idea how to do something.

I'm hopefully going to get chance to do a bit of work on the documentation tonight. More content will be appearing on the Wiki. It'd be great if my experienced players could help out a little bit with that.

Btw I got 2 smart guys in orbit of moho doing 2.8 S/D, is that normal? will take years to get even the entry level upgrades at that rate, should I send a cluster of several science labs there instead of just one?

Yes, it's worth it to send more science labs out there. You don't have to go all the way to Moho to get good science rates though, in my opinion, Laythe and Vall are in many ways the better options - they offer only just over half the science rate of Moho or Eeloo but they are massively easier to reach.

Also, the science labs will keep on generating science while you're doing other things provided they have power. The thinking was that in KSP, a lot of time is spent time accelerating while doing long hohmann transfers between planets, so when you complete one of those, you can go back to all your science labs and collect your scientific rewards.

If you have problems with science generation with unfocused ships, make sure you report them because the whole system is based on the fact that you don't have to sit there and watch them at high time warp speeds.

I'm guessing parts you upgrade using science doesn't get upgraded universally? only that one part? meaning to upgrade a newly launched ship you need a computer core to download science and upgrade it's parts? though that core could obviously be decoupled before launch

Yeah, that's a fairly reasonable way of getting science on to ships on the launch pad.

---

For those of you who were interested in how antimatter collection looks, this is the graph for Kerbin:

[K3-Chris]

I'm hopefully going to get chance to do a bit of work on the documentation tonight. More content will be appearing on the Wiki. It'd be great if my experienced players could help out a little bit with that.

Ah didn't even spot the wiki before, that'll help.

Yes, it's worth it to send more science labs out there. You don't have to go all the way to Moho to get good science rates though, in my opinion, Laythe and Vall are in many ways the better options - they offer only just over half the science rate of Moho or Eeloo but they are massively easier to reach.

Also, the science labs will keep on generating science while you're doing other things provided they have power. The thinking was that in KSP, a lot of time is spent time accelerating while doing long hohmann transfers between planets, so when you complete one of those, you can go back to all your science labs and collect your scientific rewards.

Ah that makes more sense, I assumed you had to have them focused to produce science, would be nice if you could set them to automatically upload to the common pool, having to remember to switch to them occasionally and upload could be annoying in the long run I guess.

Moho is evil, I made a design that should according to the DV maps get there and back, it barely got there, wish the DV map listed both optimal and worse case transfers (worst case still in window) if I want them back I'll have to send a rescue craft.

Laythe is tempting, aerocapture there or aerobrakeing at Jool then aerocapture at Laythe depending on Laythe's position when you enter Jool's SOI is much cheaper than outright burning to stop at rocky bodies.

[Ashtoruin]

I'm guessing parts you upgrade using science doesn't get upgraded universally? only that one part? meaning to upgrade a newly launched ship you need a computer core to download science and upgrade it's parts? though that core could obviously be decoupled before launch

Yeah, This is actually what I do, Computer Core at the bottom under a decoupler.

I'm hopefully going to get chance to do a bit of work on the documentation tonight. More content will be appearing on the Wiki. It'd be great if my experienced players could help out a little bit with that.

I can start adding what little stuff I know to it.

Moho is evil, I made a design that should according to the DV maps get there and back, it barely got there, wish the DV map listed both optimal and worse case transfers (worst case still in window) if I want them back I'll have to send a rescue craft.

Laythe is tempting, aerocapture there or aerobrakeing at Jool then aerocapture at Laythe depending on Laythe's position when you enter Jool's SOI is much cheaper than outright burning to stop at rocky bodies.

Actually Moho isn't terrible to get to if you use a warp drive at minimum speed and minimum distance, it was actually just as easy to get my interstellar tug there than it was to get it to Jool. Also I HIGHLY Recommend Upgrading your Antimatter Reactors First if you are using them to power Thermal Rockets.

[K3-Chris]

I haven't gotten into the propulsion stuff yet, I can't figure it out, I'll have to read the wiki, I've only send science ships out there with nuclear reactors and electric generators and heatsinks on them, I'm far off from being able to use the warp drive.

Edited October 7, 2013 by K3|Chris

[Libra00]

Thanks to Scott's recent video spotlighting the mod I've decided to get around to installing it. So far all I've accomplished is building a basic ship for SCIENCE! (named, obviously, the KSS Thomas Dolby) and tinkered with. The info in this thread has been a pretty useful quick start guide but I clearly need to devote a lot more time to it. I'm totally loving the potential of all the possible rocket/fuel/reactor combos. Great work Fractal, and everyone else for the info!

Edit: PS, I especially want to commend the author for the excellent texture and model work on the parts. Looks great!

[wasmic]

For those of you who were interested in how antimatter collection looks, this is the graph for Kerbin:

How does that image work? I suppose that red means most flux.

[Rampart]

I haven't had much time to post or update the wiki lately, let alone try out the new mod, but here's some tips for the new guys:

1. research costs 5MW, either with a lab or an AI core, with moho and eeloo generating the most science vall and laythe the next highest.

2. orbit at an altitude equal to or less than the planetary radius for optimal generation (at least as of 5.1)

3. AM collectors are way more efficient than lab based creation, even in kerbin orbit, dock a couple of large tanks with a half dozen connectors apiece at 900km and watch the AM roll in.

4. you can put docking ports between generators and reactors and they'll still work. great for sending research labs to moho/eeloo piecemeal, especially since one 2.5m nuke can power alot of labs.

5. upgraded thermal turbojets work just like thermal nozzles with the added bonus that they can use atmosphere as "fuel"

6. optimal warp windows between objects are when they are radially lined up from Kerbol, you also get some dV from going darkside>lightside but that makes the warping harder, going from trailing to leading or vice versa saves the same dV (I think) and is easier to navigate.

7. if you have alot of power for warp but not much fuel, warp such that gravity will slow you down and keep warping until you can make orbit.

I'll have to load up .6 later today and play some with the new radiators

[Fractal_UK]

Edit: PS, I especially want to commend the author for the excellent texture and model work on the parts. Looks great!

You should thank ZZZ for the work on most of the textures and models in this mod. I'd love to be able to take credit for such excellent work but alas I have no such artistic skill - ZZZ is the main reason that this a now nice looking mod, graphically speaking.

How does that image work? I suppose that red means most flux.

Yeah, look at the colour bar at the side, that will give you the units. Basically, it's telling you that you want to be in an equatorial orbit at about 1000km for optimal collection.

4. you can put docking ports between generators and reactors and they'll still work. great for sending research labs to moho/eeloo piecemeal, especially since one 2.5m nuke can power alot of labs.

This actually doesn't work anymore. The old connection code was actually iteratively searching the part tree for attached reactors, that means the results can be unpredictable with multiple reactors/generators so I had to take it out.

[Ashtoruin]

Thanks to Scott's recent video spotlighting the mod I've decided to get around to installing it. So far all I've accomplished is building a basic ship for SCIENCE! (named, obviously, the KSS Thomas Dolby) and tinkered with. The info in this thread has been a pretty useful quick start guide but I clearly need to devote a lot more time to it. I'm totally loving the potential of all the possible rocket/fuel/reactor combos. Great work Fractal, and everyone else for the info!

Edit: PS, I especially want to commend the author for the excellent texture and model work on the parts. Looks great!

zzz made the models, and yes, he's amazing.

and the wiki is finally starting to shape up and be somewhat of a useful starting guide, but if you have any questions feel free to ask and I'm sure one of us can answer you. :3

[Libra00]

Ah, then I transfer the commendation to ZZZ then, I love the look of the models and textures. I wish I had a tenth of your skill.

Re:wiki - I found it and have read everything I've found there, thanks. I do have a few questions though.

1) Rampart mentioned something about power costs to research and indicated that it could be done with either the lab or the core? Does the core have to be updated for that to happen?

2) re:plasma engines, since I'm awful at math and can't do the ISP calculations myself I'm not sure how to evaluate the various fuels available for it, and Mechjeb doesn't seem to do delta-v for parts from this mod. Generally my question is: how much argon/xenon will I need to bring for a mission to, say, Jool or Moho (leaving from Kerbin orbit), just as general guidelines? Also, is there any functional difference between the 1.25m and 2.5m versions? I can't see a difference in the parts list, but who knows what's going on behind the scenes.

3) Of the things which require reactor power, is there a way to find out how much they require so as to figure out how big a reactor I need? So far it tends to determine the diameter of parts I use so it means rebuilding the whole thing if I guess wrong.

I think that covers it for now, thanks.

[Rampart]

You should thank ZZZ for the work on most of the textures and models in this mod. I'd love to be able to take credit for such excellent work but alas I have no such artistic skill - ZZZ is the main reason that this a now nice looking mod, graphically speaking.

Yeah, look at the colour bar at the side, that will give you the units. Basically, it's telling you that you want to be in an equatorial orbit at about 1000km for optimal collection.

This actually doesn't work anymore. The old connection code was actually iteratively searching the part tree for attached reactors, that means the results can be unpredictable with multiple reactors/generators so I had to take it out.

Drat! hopefully that could be re-added back in later as it made it much easier to split up the heavy reactors away from the rest of the lab, maybe base the generator output off the largest active reactor connected. I totally see why you did it though.

Do labs still create max science in orbit? I recall you wanting to change that before.

Pro-tip: You can power 30-40 AGI or science labs off a relatively small AM reactor/generator combo with collectors in Jool Orbit, or at least you could before .6

We may have to start suggesting balance changes instead of bugs Fractal it seems a bit much that an AGI core takes 1200 science since it would take 400 days at moho/eeloo for it to break even.

[Fractal_UK]

1) Rampart mentioned something about power costs to research and indicated that it could be done with either the lab or the core? Does the core have to be updated for that to happen?

Yes, the normal core only stores science and acts as a command module. When it is upgraded, it begins research and counts as 2 Kerbals with 0 stupidity.

2) re:plasma engines, since I'm awful at math and can't do the ISP calculations myself I'm not sure how to evaluate the various fuels available for it, and Mechjeb doesn't seem to do delta-v for parts from this mod. Generally my question is: how much argon/xenon will I need to bring for a mission to, say, Jool or Moho (leaving from Kerbin orbit), just as general guidelines? Also, is there any functional difference between the 1.25m and 2.5m versions? I can't see a difference in the parts list, but who knows what's going on behind the scenes.

I *think* mechjeb delta-v calculations should work if you to the launch pad, turn the plasma engine on and throttle it up for a moment or two. There are actually no differences between any of the plasma engine/thermal rockets of different sizes, they are purely cosmetic differences. For Argon and Jool, you're looking in the region of delta-v equal to Isp, so just over 60% of rocket mass needs to be fuel. With LiquidFuel, that will be considerably lower.

3) Of the things which require reactor power, is there a way to find out how much they require so as to figure out how big a reactor I need? So far it tends to determine the diameter of parts I use so it means rebuilding the whole thing if I guess wrong.

I'm trying to put the things with defined power draws on the Wiki, a lot of things don't have a defined power draw and will just what's available. For example, the plasma engines don't have a specific rating, they just adapt themselves to the total power output of all your generators. Likewise, the alcubierre drive will just use up whatever power is there.

Do labs still create max science in orbit? I recall you wanting to change that before.

Yep, I'm just going to make the rates increase on the surface of planets in the next update.

[Jasmir]

For those of you who were interested in how antimatter collection looks, this is the graph for Kerbin:

Did you make this graph using ingame mechanics? If yes: how? If not: is there a way to get this values into Telemachus?

[Donziboy2]

Pro-tip: You can power 30-40 AGI or science labs off a relatively small AM reactor/generator combo with collectors in Jool Orbit, or at least you could before .6

Sadly I just pointed out that the 1.25M AM reactor was using far far less AM per MW then the 2.5 and 3.75M reactors and Fractal fixed it

Libra00 i can answer your questions in a few hours, for #3 Fractal has some of the engines plotted already, I can give you a fuel usage later once i get home, I found that some of the engines break MJ cause you end up with DV over 100K. The plasma engine is a power hog btw. The core also has to be upgrade to do research.

[Ashtoruin]

Ah, then I transfer the commendation to ZZZ then, I love the look of the models and textures. I wish I had a tenth of your skill.

Re:wiki - I found it and have read everything I've found there, thanks. I do have a few questions though.

1) Rampart mentioned something about power costs to research and indicated that it could be done with either the lab or the core? Does the core have to be updated for that to happen?

2) re:plasma engines, since I'm awful at math and can't do the ISP calculations myself I'm not sure how to evaluate the various fuels available for it, and Mechjeb doesn't seem to do delta-v for parts from this mod. Generally my question is: how much argon/xenon will I need to bring for a mission to, say, Jool or Moho (leaving from Kerbin orbit), just as general guidelines? Also, is there any functional difference between the 1.25m and 2.5m versions? I can't see a difference in the parts list, but who knows what's going on behind the scenes.

3) Of the things which require reactor power, is there a way to find out how much they require so as to figure out how big a reactor I need? So far it tends to determine the diameter of parts I use so it means rebuilding the whole thing if I guess wrong.

I think that covers it for now, thanks.

1) Yes, but it takes 1200 Research to upgrade a Computer Core to an AGI which has research capabilities.

2) Mechjeb will do dV calculations on the launchpad. (or atleast it does for me using Thermal Rockets) and I haven't messed with plasma yet so I can't give an answer to how much, and as far as I can tell the different sizes are only to make it look better when mounted.

3) I base the size of the reactor I want on my Thermal Engines as it directly effects the Thrust and Isp, for other things, it's going to depend on what part is is possibly, and if applicable how fast you want it to charge.

[Rampart]

Ah, then I transfer the commendation to ZZZ then, I love the look of the models and textures. I wish I had a tenth of your skill.

Re:wiki - I found it and have read everything I've found there, thanks. I do have a few questions though.

1) Rampart mentioned something about power costs to research and indicated that it could be done with either the lab or the core? Does the core have to be updated for that to happen?

2) re:plasma engines, since I'm awful at math and can't do the ISP calculations myself I'm not sure how to evaluate the various fuels available for it, and Mechjeb doesn't seem to do delta-v for parts from this mod. Generally my question is: how much argon/xenon will I need to bring for a mission to, say, Jool or Moho (leaving from Kerbin orbit), just as general guidelines? Also, is there any functional difference between the 1.25m and 2.5m versions? I can't see a difference in the parts list, but who knows what's going on behind the scenes.

3) Of the things which require reactor power, is there a way to find out how much they require so as to figure out how big a reactor I need? So far it tends to determine the diameter of parts I use so it means rebuilding the whole thing if I guess wrong.

I think that covers it for now, thanks.

1. Yah you can upgrade the computer cores to AI cores that can autonomously research but they'll cost you a bundle of science to do so.

2. best solution I've found is trial and error unfortunately, send it up and run it out, generally mechjeb will give you accurate dV ratings when the thing is actually running, then do the math for breaking orbit, translation correction, entering orbit, and if you're too low add more fuel.

3. research is 5MW, AM production is 5GW but it scales depending on available power, plasma thrusters are all over the place depending on fuel type, electrolysis is like 5MW as well IIRC, I might have put it in the wiki, if not send a rocket and update the wiki

I highly recommend designing all your craft as modular as possible, ie can dock or receive fuel from a tanker. KAS is great here, but I say that without trying the new KAS yet. a ship with a quantum thruster, AM reactor/generator, warp drive, AM collector makes a great tug.

I also don't recommend trying to scoop LF from Jool without using an upgraded thermal turbojet, I've had little luck making a stable orbit around Jool with just a thermal nozzle after scooping without burning more fuel than I gathered . If people have tips I'd love to hear them

[Libra00]

Thanks everyone for the info. Good info all around. Regarding specific points, I didn't realize MJ updated on the launchpad or while working, I had just noticed that vessel info displayed thermal rocket thrust once and then never again for any part. For power requirements, I think I may just go with the very Kerbal axiom that bigger is better and strap more orange tanks to the side.

Regarding modularity: I just recently started using the subassembly manager so I've had to do so anyway. I also haven't tried the newest KAS but the previous version works great for fuel transfers without blowing a ton of RCS trying to dock. I tend to install it on everything that might ever need more fuel ever again.

Regarding scooping LF from Jool, I take it it works like IntakeAir in that the faster you're going the more you get? If that's the case the solution is probably to just use it while aerobraking/capturing as a top-off rather than a reliable fuel source. Although now that I think about it, you might be able to do build an effective Jool fueling station with Hooligan Labs' Airship mod and plasma thrusters. I'm just not sure I'd want to go that deep into the gravity well to refuel, you'd burn a lot of it getting back out.

Final question for now: As for doing research I've seen mentions of possible locations that are good for it, but are there any pattern as to where to find better locations? Someone said orbit was the same as surface of a planet (though that will probably change), I assume the surface of Kerbin is a terrible place to do research? Are moons better/worse than planets? How 'bout Kerbol? Is it based on delta-v/difficulty getting there, or something else? Don't spoil it entirely for me, I'm just looking for guidelines. Also, on a related note, someone mentioned transferring science, how's that done?

Edited October 7, 2013 by Libra00

[Fractal_UK]

Regarding scooping LF from Jool, I take it it works like IntakeAir in that the faster you're going the more you get? If that's the case the solution is probably to just use it while aerobraking/capturing as a top-off rather than a reliable fuel source. Although now that I think about it, you might be able to do build an effective Jool fueling station with Hooligan Labs' Airship mod and plasma thrusters. I'm just not sure I'd want to go that deep into the gravity well to refuel, you'd burn a lot of it getting back out.

Yes be careful with the scoops though, they need to be have atmospheric intakes (not stock air intakes) available to draw the atmosphere from. I've now updated the wiki documentation to reflect this fact as I've seen people wondering why their scoops weren't working in the past.

Using them during aerobraking is really effective because you tend to be going very fast relative to the planet while doing this, so the resource collection is particularly effective. If you want to do powered collections, it's all about getting the height right and having a sufficiently high specific impulse engine.

Final question for now: As for doing research I've seen mentions of possible locations that are good for it, but are there any pattern as to where to find better locations? Someone said orbit was the same as surface of a planet (though that will probably change), I assume the surface of Kerbin is a terrible place to do research? Are moons better/worse than planets? How 'bout Kerbol? Is it based on delta-v/difficulty getting there, or something else? Don't spoil it entirely for me, I'm just looking for guidelines. Also, on a related note, someone mentioned transferring science, how's that done?

Kerbin is the worst place for research, everywhere else is better than Kerbin, except Kerbol. At the moment, Kerbol doesn't work but it probably should. I'll have to add that in as researching the sun is probably actually rather interesting.

Most of the moons generate the same science as their parent planet, Minmus and the Mun are exceptions to this rule and there are a couple of other exceptions too. Generally the harder to reach places generate the most science but there is also a factor for how scientifically interesting a place is, so some places are scaled up or down a bit from a direct correlation with their difficulty to get to.

[Libra00]

Hm, I may have noticed a small bug. It seems like whenever you change anything about a vehicle with a science lab, it removes the crew of the lab. I have no other crew on the ship which may be affecting it, I haven't had a chance to try that yet. Also the only probe core I'm using is the un-upgraded Computer Core from the mod.

[Ashtoruin]

Hm, I may have noticed a small bug. It seems like whenever you change anything about a vehicle with a science lab, it removes the crew of the lab. I have no other crew on the ship which may be affecting it, I haven't had a chance to try that yet. Also the only probe core I'm using is the un-upgraded Computer Core from the mod.

Hmm let me go and look at my science labs after this launch, I recently Jettisoned them from my Tug @ Jool before it made the return trip to Kerbin.

EDIT: mine are alive and well or did you mean in the VAB?

Also, I've decided I like the DT Vista, I just dislike that

A) It's super heavy, and you have to bring it to the surface of a planet to refuel because of a lack of tanks

No way to get more Lithium

How would the rocket react if I added a custom tank with Lithium and Deuterium? Also, How much Lithium/Deuterium do you think would go in a Bear Antimatter tank?

Edited October 7, 2013 by Ashtoruin

[Rampart]

Hm, I may have noticed a small bug. It seems like whenever you change anything about a vehicle with a science lab, it removes the crew of the lab. I have no other crew on the ship which may be affecting it, I haven't had a chance to try that yet. Also the only probe core I'm using is the un-upgraded Computer Core from the mod.

I think that's a KSP issue not a mod issue, but I'm not 100% sure. In stock, try using a command module as core then adding another crewable module, then add crew to the 2nd module. If you make any changes they'll be removed. Similar issue if you change the default crew added to the command module, they'll reset if you change anything. Super annoying, the only thing you can do is just hit your crew manifest last before launch.

EDIT: should have clarified, this is all in VAB or SPH

[forsaken1111]

If Fractal_UK doesn't mind, once I get home I'm going to have a go at making a small part to convert Kethane into Lithium, or adding that option to the large Kethane converter.

My next ingame project is going to be a kethane drilling rig powered by a small nuclear reactor/generator and an aluminum/oxygen rocket motor. I'll also land a small science rig and a kethane storage and conversion facility so in the end I should have a small refining base connected up by KAS pipes and anchors.

[Donziboy2]

From what I have seen the Lithium will last a pretty long time, the Deuterium will run out first. Im not sure what the consumption rates are, I am not home so I cant look to see if its listed in the parts description.

Im probably going to test a DT Vista vs Jool's atmo for some scooping action after work:)

Edited October 7, 2013 by Donziboy2

[Ashtoruin]

If Fractal_UK doesn't mind, once I get home I'm going to have a go at making a small part to convert Kethane into Lithium, or adding that option to the large Kethane converter.

My next ingame project is going to be a kethane drilling rig powered by a small nuclear reactor/generator and an aluminum/oxygen rocket motor. I'll also land a small science rig and a kethane storage and conversion facility so in the end I should have a small refining base connected up by KAS pipes and anchors.

Adding the Ability to make Lithium from a Kethane Converter would actually solve a lot of my problems if we get Lithium and Deuterium tanks.

From what I have seen the Lithium will last a pretty long time, the Deuterium will run out first. Im not sure what the consumption rates are, I am not home so I cant look to see if its listed in the parts description.

Yeah, it seems that it consumes Lithium and Deuterium at the same rate somewhat insignificant, but still fairly high rate.

[forsaken1111]

Adding the Ability to make Lithium from a Kethane Converter would actually solve a lot of my problems if we get Lithium and Deuterium tanks.

Making tanks isn't difficult. I'll have a go at making a few small 1.25 and 2.5m tanks for lithium and deuterium to be used until Fractak_UK manages to do so, and adding kethane->lithium as a kethane conversion option on the larger kethane converter. For the tanks I'm just going to use stock models.

Edit: My only worry is that the engine won't recognize/use the lithium and deuturium in the tanks if it uses the nonstandard resource handler Fractal_UK wrote, in which case you may have to pump them in manually or use TAC fuel balancer to keep it fueled.

Edited October 7, 2013 by forsaken1111