Is MechJeb cheating?

[CheeseGuy]

KSP != NASA

I use MechJeb sometimes. Some ships just take the little extra Jeb to ascend to orbit, however all my landings have been manual and transferring to different planets.

I think MechJeb works great but I don't see it as cheating since KSP IS in sandbox state, however just like what everyone else said, most of the time rockets use computer systems to maintain control

[Alguien]

however just like what everyone else said, most of the time rockets use computer systems to maintain control

Through thats represented in the game as SAS modules

[KhaosCorp]

Enlighten us.

How exactly do people use MJ?

I cant speak for everyone....that would be making assumptions, I wont do that. I can tell you how I use and that I know of many others using it in the same manner.

I use MJ2 as a navigational and information computer, nothing more. All the Info windows are soooo helpful, and the node planner is much better than mucking about with it on map screen. Persoanly I don't like the autopilots, they tend to waste Dv in most cases...and the landing autopilot....not sure if computers can get drunk...but it seems the landing auto pilot is tanked all the time!

@hoojiwana:

yes. its true that MOST of the features I use from MJ are mostly available in other mods....but why download 4 mods to do what Mj2 does in one mod....esp post 0.20 when memory usage is such an issue now.Recently I actually looked at replacing MJ2...once my list of needed mods hit 5 I decided it would be better to just keep using MJ.

Also....very good point about the quicksave/load!!!!! Even as a MJ user i think its a crutch at times when the quicksave/load and testing would be better. Personaly I love to test stuff ingame...half the fun of KSP imo(glad debris is limited to 250 on my test game....it would be to messy otherwise)

@Alguien:

SAS is something very very different than a navigational computer...SAS will not plot a course to anywhere...

Edited August 5, 2013 by KhaosCorp

[Beeman]

I haven't used MechJeb in a long while(since version .14 or .15-ish >.> ), though I installed it last night to see what's changed. Haven't used it yet.

I don't really view it as cheating, though. My opinion is that as long as I've done a certain maneuver or successfully flown various rocket designs into orbit, having mechjeb simplify things for me isn't really all that bad. I mean, I can make almost perfectly circular orbits(within a hundred meters difference on each side sometimes) so having mechjeb do it for me sometimes isn't that big a deal 'cause I know I could do it myself if I had to.

Last night I was practicing landing vehicles close to each other on the mun. I came within four hundred meters on my first try so it wasn't that bad. After a few more tests, I wouldn't feel all that bad about having mechjeb land some things for me but right now, I feel like I need to learn to do that stuff on my own before letting mechjeb automate it.

But if you happen to not really like flying all that much on your own and just want to see your creations in action...I say go for the gusto. It's all personal opinion, you play the game how it makes you feel good. It's like people that use OP mods in Skyrim or something. That's not how I would play the game, but if it brings some people joy, I say go for it.

[PDCWolf]

Yet more assumptions....this is moot point...all you people screaming 'cheater' do is make assumptions as to HOW people use MechJeb...so have fun being wrong =)

Opinions are ok...assumptions you try and pass as fact...not ok....

"Instead of replying to all of those posts, let's just make an unrelated note and convince myself i'm right"

"YOU'RE WRONG I'M NOT"

"Have a nice day being wrong :)"

Please, keep away from debates if you are going to react like this. It does not help the debate at all and you just make a fool of yourself.

Just to bring this topic back onto its rails, I beleive the problem being brought up by the anti-mechjeb users is that users using MechJeb still receive the same level of respect given to members who do not, and the question being posed is whether this is unjust.

This and "NASA DOES IT XD" are the main reasons of hate. There are obviously secondary reasons which are going to be too obvious to hide when career mode arrives

[hoojiwana]

yes. its true that MOST of the features I use from MJ are mostly available in other mods....but why download 4 mods to do what Mj2 does in one mod....esp post 0.20 when memory usage is such an issue now.Recently I actually looked at replacing MJ2...once my list of needed mods hit 5 I decided it would be better to just keep using MJ.

Kerbal Engineer is one mod, and there is never any reason to get absolutely perfect maneuver nodes seeing as you require an instantaneous burn to complete them, and when you do floating point errors will always throw your trajectory off anyway.

[KhaosCorp]

Kerbal Engineer is one mod, and there is never any reason to get absolutely perfect maneuver nodes seeing as you require an instantaneous burn to complete them, and when you do floating point errors will always throw your trajectory off anyway.

I don't want perfect nodes, but i dont want to mess with them for 5min and still have them waaay off. Even if you did have a perfect node its really not to hard to start your burn centered on the node....meaning if the burn is supposed to take 30seconds then start 10secs or so before your mark. And kerbal engineer does not do everything I like that Mj does.

@PDCwolf: maybe you need to read my post again, and I will ask you please dont skew my words like that again....I said making assumption and then trying to use them in a debate as fact is wrong....not yall opinions about MJ.

[PDCWolf]

I don't want perfect nodes, but i dont want to mess with them for 5min and still have them waaay off. Even if you did have a perfect node its really not to hard to start your burn centered on the node....meaning if the burn is supposed to take 30seconds then start 10secs or so before your mark. And kerbal engineer does not do everything I like that Mj does.

@PDCwolf: maybe you need to read my post again, and I will ask you please dont skew my words like that again....I said making assumption and then trying to use them in a debate as fact is wrong....not yall opinions about MJ.

If your words are skew-able as easily as that, then there's something wrong with your words, maybe you are not being clear enough or what you want to say is not that far from what I understood.

Now, please, list me all the assumptions that were made. But before that, remember that it was the op itself the one that asked if autopiloting features were being considered cheats or not. He did not talk about mechjeb in general, so that was not an assumption, that was placing our opinions between the context and limits that the op himself provided.

[HeadHunter67]

For my own part, I've been watching. A video tutorial is nice, but you can't interact with the screen. You can't switch to a different view or go from camera view to the map window and back.

Despite what some of the detractors might think, it is possible to use this as a teaching tool You don't need a narrator to tell you what's going on - because you're right there in the game. Maybe some people can't figure it out, but let's not assume everyone is that dense. When I started playing the game a few weeks back, I knew nothing about rendezvous or docking or Hohmann transfers. I watched a lot of videos and read walls of text, and it made sense to me to a point, but some people learn differently. Some people learn by reading, others by watching, others by doing... and some learn by a process that involves all these things.

No video narrator is ever going to be there in game with me when I want to see how something is done. I can watch how he does what he wants in his game, but I can only see what he chooses to show me, when he chooses. This is different. I've actually learned manual docking from MJ, and I learned more about setting up a rendezvous from MJ than from all the videos I've watched and tutorials I've read. The more I use it, the less I need it. But it can help, and the only people who feel threatened by that are people who feel the need to impress others with their "achievements" in a video game.

Yes, I've seen some very impressive things in the game, and that's great. But I don't define myself by what I've done with my toys - and let's be honest, that's all this is, a toy. No one's ever saved a life with KSP, with or without MJ installed. So, if you want "respect" for what you've done here, fine. Well done! Personally, I play for fun. I'm having fun. I don't care what someone else thinks of how I play and I have to laugh at those who tell me I'm "not having fun right".

Want to know who's cheating themselves? Those who think any of this really matters.

[KhaosCorp]

If your words are skew-able as easily as that, then there's something wrong with your words, maybe you are not being clear enough or what you want to say is not that far from what I understood.

Now, please, list me all the assumptions that were made. But before that, remember that it was the op itself the one that asked if autopiloting features were being considered cheats or not. He did not talk about mechjeb in general, so that was not an assumption, that was placing our opinions between the context and limits that the op himself provided.

I know what the OP said thank you, and it has absolutly no bearing on all that was said AFTERWORDS!!!

Some of what was said afterwords being assumptions on how MJ users actually use MJ. People saying that its cheating due to autopilot is an assumption that every MJ user uses the autopilot.

Also...you justify twisting my words to further your own argument because they COULD be twisted??? really guy?

Just because something CAN be done does not mean it SHOULD be done...way to take the highroad...and you talk to me about being counterproductive to the discussion.

[hoojiwana]

Despite what some of the detractors might think, it is possible to use this as a teaching tool. I watched a lot of videos and read walls of text, and it made sense to me to a point, but some people learn differently.

I've actually learned manual docking from MJ, and I learned more about setting up a rendezvous from MJ than from all the videos I've watched and tutorials I've read.

There are many people who don't go that extra step and look outside of the game for why things work the way they do, or why MechJeb burns a certain way to achieve a certain task. MechJeb by itself just does things, and it is still entirely up to the player to figure out why its doing that. That's barely better than having no idea of what to do at all, as seeing MechJeb do something counter intuitive might just confuse some. If the game had improved tutorials, and a lower learning curve (or cliff in some cases) then people wouldn't need to go watch Scott Manley tutorials, or to download MechJeb to see how it does things.

Want to know who's cheating themselves? Those who think any of this really matters.

You seem very content to discuss this if you don't think it matters.

[HeadHunter67]

You seem very content to discuss this if you don't think it matters.

I'm trying to get you to acquire a proper sense of perspective. As soon as you realize that it's not about the mod, or even the game, and that the real issue is about people who feel like they can't be happy unless everyone does things their way... then it will all become clear to you.

As soon as you accomplish something in your life that makes everything you've ever done in every game pale in comparison... then you'll understand why this is a tempest in a teapot.

But if that's not clear enough, let me ask this: What's it matter to you how other people play? Do you honestly think you know better?

[KhaosCorp]

There are many people who don't go that extra step and look outside of the game for why things work the way they do, or why MechJeb burns a certain way to achieve a certain task. MechJeb by itself just does things, and it is still entirely up to the player to figure out why its doing that. That's barely better than having no idea of what to do at all, as seeing MechJeb do something counter intuitive might just confuse some. If the game had improved tutorials, and a lower learning curve (or cliff in some cases) then people wouldn't need to go watch Scott Manley tutorials, or to download MechJeb to see how it does things.

I would have to agree that MechJeb ONLY is a horrible learning tool. But, as stated by HeadHunter, people learn things in very different ways. Some people do very well learning with only written instructions, other learn best with visual aids and a hands-on approach. Personaly I am kinda in the middle as Im sure others are. I can learn from a wall of text, but may not grasp some of the more complex aspects of a topic till I can see it done (or some other visual representation).

And whats wrong with Scott Manley vids?? He does very good tutorial..in fact youtube vids from Scott and HoY are how I learned KSP. Being a former soldier now metal worker/gunsmith I actually knew very little about orbital mechanics before playing KSP.

[hoojiwana]

As soon as you realize that it's not about the mod, or even the game.

My apologies, I thought a discussion about a mod for a game would've been about the mod or the game.

But if that's not clear enough, let me ask this: What's it matter to you how other people play? Do you honestly think you know better?

It does not matter in the slightest how other people play. It matters how they learn to play, and often with MechJeb they don't learn. Even if people like yourself do learn from using it, they should be able to play the game as they see fit using what the game itself provides for them.

And whats wrong with Scott Manley vids?? He does very good tutorial..in fact youtube vids from Scott and HoY are how I learned KSP.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with his videos and I never said that there was. I used them as an example because they are one of the most oft-recommended tutorials for the game. My point was that if the game had better tutorials, people wouldn't need to visit external sources or use game modifications to learn how to play it.

[KhaosCorp]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with his videos and I never said that there was. I used them as an example because they are one of the most oft-recommended tutorials for the game. My point was that if the game had better tutorials, people wouldn't need to visit external sources or use game modifications to learn how to play it.

Easy solution:

Squad..go hire Scott to make the ingame tutorials! dooeet!!

[Camelotking524]

Can we atleast all agree that the custom information windows that mechjeb offers is a god sent. I hate having to constantly change to map view in order to see my orbital information.

[KhaosCorp]

I'm sure pretty much everyone agrees with that, but as said above one can avoid a lot of issues simply by getting kerbal engineer, or VOID instead, as they all do the same thing and display the same information.

If the way I use mechjeb is cheating then so is engineer and void and node editor....actually any mod that provides information or assistance to the pilot that's not available in stock game. SO basically anything but the most balanced parts packs..

[ddavis425]

If the way I use mechjeb is cheating then so is engineer and void and node editor....actually any mod that provides information or assistance to the pilot that's not available in stock game.

Nobody is saying that the information is cheating. It's the autopilot that is so divisive.

[Patmantrick]

If the way I use mechjeb is cheating then so is engineer and void and node editor....actually any mod that provides information or assistance to the pilot that's not available in stock game. SO basically anything but the most balanced parts packs..

But I never said you were cheating? I simply stated that there are a number of editors that allow for a large array of data to be displayed onscreen that don't include autopilot features, and that pretty much everyone agrees that information displayed by the aforementioned mods should be available in the stock game.

[Captain Sierra]

I learned rendezvous from mechjeb. I also use the ascent guidance to do the tedious work for me as I use the same basic launcher every time.

If you've done it once, you've done it a thousand times and that is how I use MJ. I'll use it for some help but if I haven't done at least most of it myself in the past, I won't use MJ.

Second most used feature: execute next node. Great for manual setting of nodes and then taking the guesswork out of it.

[HeadHunter67]

My apologies, I thought a discussion about a mod for a game would've been about the mod or the game.

Then why are you talking so much about the players, and not the game?

It matters how they learn to play

It matters to you. I regret to inform you that what matters to you is meaningless to how others play. See what I mean about people who feel they're fit to decide for others? Why do you care how other people play? Are you the sort of person that pushes little kids of bikes because they have training wheels and you don't need them? There are a lot of things other people can do easily that you can't - is it right for them to tell you how to live because of it?

Let these people play how they want, man. You act like it's costing you something to do so. For crying out loud, it's a game. They're not competing in the Olympics.

[KhaosCorp]

But I never said you were cheating? I simply stated that there are a number of editors that allow for a large array of data to be displayed onscreen that don't include autopilot features, and that pretty much everyone agrees that information displayed by the aforementioned mods should be available in the stock game.

And as was previously stated, why get 5 mods to do what 1 mod does...just dont use the autopilots if you dont want to. I like to run mods, I like to run ALOT...but since KSP is a 32bit program there is a pretty stiff limit to how much mods can be installed.

Keeping that in mind I think its a load of BS that I get called a cheater because I use a single mod (MechJeb) in place of the 4-5 id need to get the same features (void, engineer, node editor, protractor....and thats not even all the features from MJ i use........)

If I could install a reasonable amount of mods I probably would not use MJ(if KSP was 64bit id have like 7k parts, instead of the 600somehting I got now) ...but till then I prefer to simplify and minimize my mod installs...call that cheating if you will....

edit:

i actually use protractor now though....MJ is very wasteful planing transfer burns (@850ish Dv for duna main transfer burn with protractor....over 1k Dv for same burn planed by MJ2).

Edited August 5, 2013 by KhaosCorp

[OtherDalfite]

And as was previously stated, why get 5 mods to do what 1 mod does...just dont use the autopilots if you dont want to. I like to run mods, I like to run ALOT...but since KSP is a 32bit program there is a pretty stiff limit to how much mods can be installed.

Keeping that in mind I think its a load of BS that I get called a cheater because I use a single mod (MechJeb) in place of the 4-5 id need to get the same features (void, engineer, node editor, protractor....and thats not even all the features from MJ i use........)

If I could install a reasonable amount of mods I probably would not use MJ(if KSP was 64bit id have like 7k parts, instead of the 600somehting I got now) ...but till then I prefer to simplify and minimize my mod installs...call that cheating if you will....

edit:

i actually use protractor now though....MJ is very wasteful planing transfer burns (@850ish Dv for duna main transfer burn with protractor....over 1k Dv for same burn planed by MJ2).

You can install as many modifications that you need. It all has to do with how many parts are part of a craft and how close that craft is with others. You could have NovaPunch, KW, and B9 Aerospace all installed at once and the only thing that would change was the load time.

[KhaosCorp]

You can install as many modifications that you need. It all has to do with how many parts are part of a craft and how close that craft is with others. You could have NovaPunch, KW, and B9 Aerospace all installed at once and the only thing that would change was the load time.

Wrong.

KSP for windows (thats what i using) is a 32bit program. As such it will only be able to use around 3.5gb(varies) of ram before it becomes unstable and ends up crashing. Installing mods will increase memory usage REGARDLESS if a ship is loaded or not. You can get KSP to crash from to many mods installed before it can finish loading.

and you listed 3 mods.....i said ALOT =P

Rather simple to see this using a system resource monitor. A fresh install of KSP will use XXX amount of ram at KSC scene (where ya pick VAB/SHP and whatnot). Now install a few mods....*gasp* the memory usage has gone a bit in THE SAME SCENE.....there's a limit

Edited August 5, 2013 by KhaosCorp

[Patmantrick]

Wrong.

and you listed 3 mods.....i said ALOT =P

The mod packs he listed contain way more in the way of RAM usage than the 5 you refer to, however, which I believe is the point he is making.