About the Tech tree

[fatfluffycat]

Career mode? Please yes!

Edited August 7, 2013 by fatfluffycat

[breakthrough]

In my experience there are two major stumbling blocks to tech trees. The first is that design choices are trivialized because you just use whatever you most recently unlocked because its better. The second is that the unlocks are trivialized because by the time you have aerospikes, you've already spent the last 10 hours of play escaping the atmosphere with whatever you did have available so the 'upgrade' doesn't actually help you.

Neither problem will kill the game for me, but I hope Squad manages to avoid the issues somehow.

[Mr. Scruffy]

I hope for R&D to be a bit vague. What i mean is this: In most games with a tech-tree you know exactly what the tech you choose will give you and how long it will take to research it and the exact cost of researching it. That´s like Oppenheimer stating in 1942 that by summer 45 3 bombs will be ready for use and each will have a yield of xx kT, a weight of y and... you get the idea. It´s quite unrealistic and imho also kind of boring gameplay wise.

I´d prefer to have general fields. Say, for examples, ´nuclear physics´ and ´electronics´. A certain level of one or more of these fields could then open up prototype research for the actual parts. So, say, you got nuclear physics level 3, but no electronics, yet. This may allow you to research some sort of nuclear solid booster thingie (not throttlable nuclear thruster). You can invest into researching that, or skip it, get into electronics instead, and when you reached a certain level there the prototype-research for the actual nerva (throttable) becomes avaiable.

The cost for each new level in any field, as well as for the prototypes, should only be given as a vague string. As in: high, medium, low, etc. The same for the progress made: Developing basics, Conceptualizing blueprints, conducting test-row, etc. In short: The fewer numbers i see when looking at the cost and progress of the research, the happier i will be. I mean, ask the guys at Apple, how far away they are from the next iPhone: Their reply most likely wont be ´95.8%´ or ´it´ll be done by oct, 8th, exactly´.

[Comrade Jenkens]

Though there are tons of parts, they are all pretty much the same tech level. (except NERVA and Ion Engine)

So I don't get how a tech tree could be made from that.

[KSK]

Though there are tons of parts, they are all pretty much the same tech level. (except NERVA and Ion Engine)

So I don't get how a tech tree could be made from that.

Quite easily I would think Random examples off the top of my head.

Liquid Fueled Engines + Radiative Nozzles. Starting technologies. Enables LV-30 engines . (imaginary, not currently in game but think lower tech version of the LV-T30.)

Radiative Nozzles. Unlock research into Ablative Cooling. Required for Heat Shields, Mark 1 Capsule. Enables LV-T30 engines with Liquid Fueled Engines.

Liquid Fueled Engines. Unlock research into Closed Cycle Combustion.

High Pressure Storage. Enables Monopropellant Tanks. Unlocks research into Pressure Fed Engines (requires Radiative Nozzles)

Pressure Fed Engines. Unlocks LV-910 engine. Enables Mainsail 'Skipper' engines (with Closed Cycle Combustion.)

Closed Cycle Combustion. Unlocks research into Advanced Injector Plates.

Advanced Injector Plates. Enables Rockomax 'Mainsail' engines.

So just that quick and dirty example gives you a straight line path from basic engines all the way up to the biggest engines currently in game. On the way through you have technology offshoots into other situationally useful engines, as well as links to other systems completely unrelated to engines. If you want to make things more complicated you can include other techs like Engine Gimballing (required to enable Skipper and Mainsail Engines, plus the LV-T45 (with Liquid Fueled Engines)). Then you could include something like Engine Clustering, which opens up the Bicoupler, Tricoupler etc. line of parts, if players want to go with multiple (presumably cheaper) engines rather than single monster engines.

I would argue that the science level of the current stock parts is about the same (with some obvious exceptions as pointed out) but that there is quite a spread of technology levels - or engineering levels if you like - that give plenty of scope for a tech tree.

I would actually see the problem from the other way around - it would be quite possible to have a fantastically detailed tech tree, such that you need to do a ton of research to unlock even fairly basic components.

[rocqua]

It would be really cool if research were somehow tied to exploration. This way there's more to do than just land and plant a flag.

[Motokid600]

That would be overpowered if you ask me.

Not unless they gimp the engines. It'd be boring to have R&D just unlock parts imo. I'd like to be able to unlock other dynamics as well. Let's just say when you unlock the nervas they start out with an isp of 600, there a little heavier, Not as much power ( maybe more to spike fuel usage ) and maybe a texture that adapts to the tech level. It'd go from a shotty, dirty ratrod look to the clean look it has now. Basically what I'm getting at is a mini tech tree for each part. ( maybe only engines ) which allows you to customize the engine. For instance let's say you can upgrade power levels and lower isp for shorter burn times. Or maybe you can lighten the engine at the cost of efficiently in general.

[voleurinconnu]

I would like to suggest, to keep lower tech parts similar in style and technological era ,so Early game parts would be at least remotely (or equally) useful in late game (older not always are worse) and let combine different tech level parts smoothly - no early junk+duct taped parts and futuristic at the end making them aesthetically awkward to use together.

I think they're on the right track already, I mean, look at the MK-I Pod, it's styled like a Mercury capsule, while the MK 1-2 Pod is a more Orion type deal, yet I feel both parts work equally well with the other parts. So personally, I think it's a good idea to give a sense of technological progression in the look of the parts, though I'm not a fan of the idea of duct taped pieces of junk to begin with, so I would just like to see a slight age gap in the parts, not a style gap.

And I think Mr. Scruffy's got the right idea, personally I doubt that's how it'll be implemented, as it's pretty unorthodox, but I'd say that's a pretty good route to take.

[swiftgates24]

When I think of Tech tree, I think of Civilization V.

While the tech tree in that game is much more strategic and also made for tailoring the development of your game entity to a specific path towards victory, it had it right in that it was relatively difficult to screw it up. Sure there were ways of making your tech gain great advantages in one way or another, no path through it was really a way of preventing progress. Analogy; regardless of which basket had eggs in it or how many, it was still possible to succeed. Such is not the case in less well-constructed trees of gameplay.

But one thing I remember is a very notable detail: the industrial era in the tech tree is a pinch point of only three technologies (to the left of the middle in this image) and how a given Civilization approached those three technologies (Biology, Steam Power and Dynamite) made all the difference in the world of how quickly and easily they would progress to further goals only a few turns down the line.

Making such career lynch-pin tech tree decisions would make it much more interesting if cleverly employed, as long as it did not become too involved.

I can imagine a few different technologies that could be on the tree:

Solid Fuels

Monopropellant Liquid

Bipropellant Liquid

Tripropellant Liquid

Hypergols

Open Cycle Combustion

Closed Cycle Combustion

Turbopump Assembly (Level 1, 2, 3?)

Nuclear Thermodynamics

This is exactly what I thought of. I'd love a Tech Tree like Civ V in KSP.

[Fiddlestyx]

As long as I can unlock all of it and don't get locked out of one branch because I selected it's neighbor. Although I doubt that will happen, just saying.

[Necandi Brasil]

Not unless they gimp the engines. It'd be boring to have R&D just unlock parts imo. I'd like to be able to unlock other dynamics as well. Let's just say when you unlock the nervas they start out with an isp of 600, there a little heavier, Not as much power ( maybe more to spike fuel usage ) and maybe a texture that adapts to the tech level. It'd go from a shotty, dirty ratrod look to the clean look it has now. Basically what I'm getting at is a mini tech tree for each part. ( maybe only engines ) which allows you to customize the engine. For instance let's say you can upgrade power levels and lower isp for shorter burn times. Or maybe you can lighten the engine at the cost of efficiently in general.

This is what I would like to see aswell... It get's kinda boring when you can only unlock parts (In my opinion )

[Kimberly]

The big thing I'm wondering is how moddable the tech tree is going to be. Could RemoteTech implement a progression from basic antennae to interplanetary dishes? Will Kethane require pain-staking prospecting before orbital scans are possible, and make you inefficiently burn raw kethane before you find a way to refine it?

[lazarus1024]

It would be kind of cool if there were either upgrades to parts themselves within the tech tree, or very similar parts, but better.

IE Maybe you can get better "engines" by an improved fuel tank, or it blanket upgrades all of the engines once you unlock it. Maybe you start with Kerosene/LOX, but you can upgrade to LH2/LOX fuel later, which bumps the ISP by 15% or something.

I don't think there should be many "upgrades", mostly part unlocks, but it would be kind of cool to see at least a handful in there which make existing parts better. Or heck, maybe they are unlockable parts, which if added to your rocket make it better (maybe "Advanced Turbopump" is a small part which you can add to engines which increases ISP, or thrust, or something).

A thought along the later line, is maybe in VAB/SPH parts could have slots added for "upgrades", so you don't have to worry about actual part count or clutter, but you can increase the ability of certain parts. Maybe "advanced crystaline solar cell" is an upgrade to normal solar cells which increase power density. Or "Lithium Ion batteries" which increases energy density of batteries. Or LED lights, which reduces the power draw of the vehicle lights. Advanced turbopump, which increases the thrust of liquid fueled engines. Advanced rocket fuels is a mod to engines which also increases ISP by 10% or something.

Just some thoughts.

[redteddy23]

If there's a tech tree that probably means some early implementation of Career mode is in too (Else it wouldn't make much sense to have a tech tree).

Anyway, quite a few ways this could be implemented and no info to say for sure. But I hope it works based on achievements + money. So you must do a return mission for the mun before you can start researching NERVA. But it'll still cost you a lot of money, meaning that you get stuck with the dilemma: "Do I spend my budget researching efficient nukes for long term, or do I go to Duna with current tech?".

Exited in any case, interested to see what they come up with.

Just finished Voyage by Stephen Baxter which tells the story of an alternate NASA plan where the shuttle is not developed an instead a Mars Mission is implemented. Initially they go with a NERVA plan but in the end go for an all out "Super Apollo" instead using a Venus gravity assist. Very interesting alternate route for tech development and it would be cool to have test pilot missions where new engines are put through their paces and the results used to improve their reliability..

[LameLefty]

... it would be cool to have test pilot missions where new engines are put through their paces and the results used to improve their reliability..

That's something else to wonder about and contemplate: reliability. Will career mode include realistic reliability stats for newly-unlocked parts?

[jeti140973]

It would be kind of cool if there were either upgrades to parts themselves within the tech tree, or very similar parts, but better.

IE Maybe you can get better "engines" by an improved fuel tank, or it blanket upgrades all of the engines once you unlock it. Maybe you start with Kerosene/LOX, but you can upgrade to LH2/LOX fuel later, which bumps the ISP by 15% or something.

I don't think there should be many "upgrades", mostly part unlocks, but it would be kind of cool to see at least a handful in there which make existing parts better. Or heck, maybe they are unlockable parts, which if added to your rocket make it better (maybe "Advanced Turbopump" is a small part which you can add to engines which increases ISP, or thrust, or something).

A thought along the later line, is maybe in VAB/SPH parts could have slots added for "upgrades", so you don't have to worry about actual part count or clutter, but you can increase the ability of certain parts. Maybe "advanced crystaline solar cell" is an upgrade to normal solar cells which increase power density. Or "Lithium Ion batteries" which increases energy density of batteries. Or LED lights, which reduces the power draw of the vehicle lights. Advanced turbopump, which increases the thrust of liquid fueled engines. Advanced rocket fuels is a mod to engines which also increases ISP by 10% or something.

Just some thoughts.

Yeah, I'm also hoping for something like this. I am thinking it would be great if you could strengthen your parts in certain areas, like improving their structural strength, making them more resistant to heat/cold/vibration, using less resources (or producing more). Make engines more powerful or consume less fuel, make parachutes more robust so they can withstand higher speeds, fuel tanks that can contain more fuel, solar panels that produce more energy, electrical systems that consume less power, etc. You get the idea. Of course, it should be carefully balanced so it doesn't make things too easy. But I like the idea that landing on Eeloo would require different research unlocks than landing on Moho, for example.

[Eric S]

That's something else to wonder about and contemplate: reliability. Will career mode include realistic reliability stats for newly-unlocked parts?

Unlikely, unless you're saying that the first X of a given part are a prototype that may not be as reliable as the finished product. The devs have made it pretty clear that their desire is that failure is not random, it's in our hands. And even then, as X gets larger, it would start pushing against this goal.

[Slugy]

Double sided sticky tape between tanks would be nice

Looking forward to career mode!

[mach1]

my idea of a tech tree would follow a realistic approach.

For example: you start with few pieces, crappy engines and so on. So you cant do for example the interplanetary travel from the beginning.

to unlock more powerful engines you have to "collect" materials from mun or minmus. So you have to accomplish a human or rover munar mission first, collect a certain amount of material, bring them back ( with even the extra weight considered ) and when you succesfully end the mission the more powerful engines are unlocked and the option "interplanetary travel" is present in the tech tree. At that point you will be allowed to leave the kerbin sphere of influence.

At the same time to be able to build and send a rover on the moon you have first to accomplish a mission on kerbin, for example build a rover, drive it around for tot km and than the "rover" is present in the tech tree and from that moment you can build any kind of rover and send it into space.

To be able to perform a manned space mission you would need to unlock the "manned mission" in tech tree, and to do that first you have to complete a manned orbit around kerbit and bring back alive your astronaut.

If you want to be able to do rendezvouz in space you have to first send two astronauts on a kerbin orbit and train them to rendezvouz, otherwise you wont have the rendezvous ability in the tech tree and wont be able to use it in your space mission.

Another example: before you can land anything succesfully on mun you have to send a probe and establish an orbit under a determinate heigh around mun, otherwise all your mun landing would result in a crash, and that will unlock the "land on mun" in tech tree.

And so on following this spirit.

Edited August 7, 2013 by mach1

[SkyRender]

my idea of a tech tree would follow a realistic approach.

(ideas)

Sorry, but most of that sounds like arbitrary player-limiting mechanics. That's not really very realistic at all, it's just forcing the player to follow the exact path that humans went through in their own space development. It's my opinion that you should NEVER take control away from the player for arbitrary reasons, and things like forcing the player to complete an orbit around the Mun before they can land or their ship just blows up in spite of a perfect landing reeks of taking control away arbitrarily.

In my mind, a tech tree should be organic from a gameplay perspective, not a "that's how it happened for humans" perspective. Have a few different major categories to work on: command pods, engine power, fuel capacity, control, science, structural, and utility (almost all of these being existing categories, of course). Each type would be limited in what you can develop depending on how much of the current level's options you've unlocked for that particular tier and category. If the player wants to advance their Kerbals from simple orbiters to interplanetary missions in 3 launches flat, I say give them the option through a flexible tech tree like this. Let player skill determine rate of progress, not the path of human advancement in space flight.

[air805ronin]

my idea of a tech tree would follow a realistic approach.

....

And so on following this spirit.

That feels, as a concept, far too limiting. If I have fuel tanks an engines, then I should be able to strap those on and do whatever is possible with them. edit: Most of your concepts seem like they'd be more realistically set as player missions, not unlike how NASA progressed their goals with each Gemini and Apollo mission until they felt comfortable sending people to the Moon.

Besides, if we want true realism we should have a good budget and incredible progress for about 10 years and then steadily decrease the funding vs. inflation, finally cancelling manned missions completely.

[Anton P. Nym]

my idea of a tech tree would follow a realistic approach.

For example: you start with few pieces, crappy engines and so on. So you cant do for example the interplanetary travel from the beginning.

to unlock more powerful engines you have to "collect" materials from mun or minmus.

I seem to have missed, in my years following the space program, reading that Shuttle components were made from lunar regolith.

I'd be happy if the tech tree did NOT rely on gathering tiberium/vespene/whateverite and just relied on doing research, like it does in the real world.

-- Steve

[Xaiier]

I would hope that research is not time-based or mission based but rather an instant money-cost unlock. You earn money by doing missions (more the first time you complete it, enough that theres never really a grind though) and you can choose to spend that money on either new rockets with existing parts or unlocking a new tier of parts to build new rockets with.

[SkyRender]

I would hope that research is not time-based or mission based but rather an instant money-cost unlock. You earn money by doing missions (more the first time you complete it, enough that theres never really a grind though) and you can choose to spend that money on either new rockets with existing parts or unlocking a new tier of parts to build new rockets with.

Likely it will be either that or a C&C/StarCraft style system where you invest and wait a certain amount of time before the upgrade research is complete. I can't see Squad forcing the player to jump through hoops just to get things unlocked; it would make more sense for them to reward skill with faster progress.

[Tw1]

my idea of a tech tree would follow a realistic approach.

You earn money by doing missions (more the first time you complete it, enough that theres never really a grind though) .

Both things I would be disappointed to find in career mode.

I hope they don't give you "levels" Like make a space station, or land on the Mun, but instead present opportunities for you to go and explore on your own volition, and funding is based on the level of support for your space program, not an arbitrary reward system.

Little side missions would be interesting, but it would be disappointing if that was the main mechanism for career mode.