About the Tech tree

[Sandworm]

Yes, when Nixon OKed the shuttle it was pitched to him as flying 50+ missions per year. They also said that astronauts would be flying in, literally, shirt-sleeves rather than spacesuits.

The fundamentals of shuttle had little to do with spaceflight. Much was politics. The use of solid fuel was to keep factories running, factories that were also used to produce fuel for icbms. The oversized wings were to provide airforce with a 1000+km cross-range ability, to overfly russia and return in a single orbit, a mission that never happened. The military version of shuttle was never built. Even the cargo bay was pitched as being able to "bring something back", the idea being that they might retrieve a peace of enemy hardware (see project Azorian which was in the same cost league as a shuttle). The use of tiles, as opposed to an ablative shield, was supposed to facilitate turnaround but actually increased labour costs. For the last half of the program shuttle spent much of its time in orbit checking itself for damage, not getting things done.

The entire spaceplane concept, fly it home and send it again, was a financial boondoggle. That is why NASA is returning to one-use capsules. So despite the apparent logical advantages of reusable craft, designing space hardware to be recycled and/or reused is just not financially prudent. At least in terms of manned flight, the big stuff.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Sandworm

[Galacticruler]

It just would not be a tech tree without some dead ends and double requirements.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Galacticruler

[The Jedi Master]

No need to worry about that. R&D is probably only going to be available in Career Mode.

Career Mode kinda-sorta-maybe confirmed!

[Custard Donut (In Space)]

Sandwiches (don't keep very well and take up space) --> Microwave-space-meals (keep for longer but take up space) ---> Paste-inna-tube (can take more with you) ---> Super nutrition pills (potent, long-lasting and easy to store.)

[CaptainCrunch]

Nowhere in the history of space travel have 90% of the cost of building a vehicle been saved via recovery. There have only ever been TWO craft, shuttle and the shuttle's SRB, that have ever been "recycled" and they still cost millions and millions and months to turn around. (That virgin thing is less a spacecraft, more a rollercoaster for rich people). Worse yet, if you look at those programs as a whole they would have been far far cheaper had they never been designed for recycling, and most likely far safer...

How is this unrealistic? KSP technology is designed to copy the present and near future. The Space Shuttle was a first generation attempt at a "reuseable" spacecraft. Costs aren't frozen in time, technology if applied correctly will always bring it down. What if airplanes were disposable? Fly it once, throw it away. Drive my car once, throw it away. We just haven't been able to make it cost effective yet. SpaceX is probably the closest as they have already demonstrated the ability to cut cost (Space Shuttle $1.5 Billion per launch vs. Falcon Heavy $75-$100 Million per launch) and are already well on their way to re-useable boosters.

Or listen to this guy argue for reusability.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sumVEEAZ_w&t=10m44s

[CaptainCrunch]

Also think about the sheer volume of disposable rocket programs since the beginning of the space race, we've had quite awhile to perfect that design. The Space Shuttle was really the only serious attempt to solve the SSTO reusability problem by someone with enough resources to throw at it.

Reusability is a whole new ball game; of course initial R&D costs will be higher but given enough time and new iterations the benefits are exponential. This has happened time and time again across many industries: a government program creates or invents something, private business makes it cost effective.

EDIT: I is wrong and are corrected.

Edited August 11, 2013 by CaptainCrunch

[Sandworm]

Shuttle was not SSTO, not even an attempt. Single stage to orbit means not dropping things. Shuttle was 3-stage to orbit. I am not aware of any attempts at SSTO. Even the virgin thing is 2-stage in that it has a lift craft. The fact that SSTO is possible in KSP is testimony that current engines, especially the air-breathers, are radically overpowered.

[aNewHope]

Shuttle was not SSTO, not even an attempt. Single stage to orbit means not dropping things. Shuttle was 3-stage to orbit. I am not aware of any attempts at SSTO. Even the virgin thing is 2-stage in that it has a lift craft. The fact that SSTO is possible in KSP is testimony that current engines, especially the air-breathers, are radically overpowered.

Nope. The engines and/or fuel tanks don't even need to be overpowered. It is just the fact, that u only need about 4,500 m/s of ∆V. In real life it is about 9,500 m/s. And even with this little ∆V requirements it's not that easy to archive orbit. Sooo.. KSP is way easier than real rocket-science, but it's also just a game. it doesn't need to be 100% realistic.

[alaskafish]

Wait? Does this mean we'll get better parts? Like, say we have a 1L tank that is 1 m wide, if using money you could upgrade it to be a 2L tank that is 1 m wide?

Because I honestly cannot see it working like you get larger parts when "ranking up".

[TheMightyScrub]

The Tech tree should have some kind of branch which allows you to unlock a more powerful ion engine, that would be less efficient or something

[Kimberly]

The Tech tree should have some kind of branch which allows you to unlock a more powerful ion engine, that would be less efficient or something

But doesn't that go against the whole point of ion engines? They're supposed to be very efficient, yet very weak. If you make it less efficient but more powerful, it starts to be more like a liquid-fueled rocket engine. Real ion engines have far less thrust than those in the game, anyway.

[eurybaric]

I'm wondering about MODS! How in the world would they fit in with the tech tree? Will mods be disabled in career mode? And if so, all mods? what do you guys have in mind?

[Sandworm]

Squad could easily support mods in a tech tree, they just have to plan ahead a little.

Set a mod-readable variable or group of variables such as "Techlevel=1" (for linear tree) or "EngineTechLevel=5" (for branched tree). Part/mod creators could then pick a number so that their part would not be available until a certain level. That would be the smart way. The dumb way would be a locked-in tree that assigned parts to particular situations (ie "no mailsails until you orbit Mun") which could not easily incorporate mods.

[Rosarium]

i'm not happy at all because i think the career mode as the last step before the game's release. i still think the mining and gathering resources is the best way to give goals, fun, creativity and evolutions to the game. We really miss goals and objectives at all to think about a tech tree now. i think KSP is becoming too much mod dependent and for the ones who do not want to download mods there are really poor options.

Squad, is sad to say but you are adding almost useless stuff without giving it depth and valor or in better words too much meat on the fire before something is already cook. Let's look at the antennas.... they are there you can apply them but they are useless. the parts and what they do are the only way to give depth to the game because the real strength of KSP is the complete customization, not the overall look. there are mods that can give us communication, examination, exploration but it's absurd that all this cannot be done in the main game, without mention the resource gathering. If all those stuff were already implemented and only when all those stuff has been implemented you should add a real cool career, with a tech tree giving to kerbals roles and objectives. But for now the tech tree and the career mode is only a limitation for the game not a plus.

building cool stuff is the primary objective of this game, to make it more creative and cool we need parts and goals.

the most sad thing is that there are only 2 options to this comment: i'm right and KPS will taste like crude meat or i'm wrong and Squad have better options and priorities to give a greater taste to KPS's hamburger. this is not trolling are just my impressions.

[Necandi Brasil]

i'm not happy at all because i think the career mode as the last step before the game's release. i still think the mining and gathering resources is the best way to give goals, fun, creativity and evolutions to the game. We really miss goals and objectives at all to think about a tech tree now. i think KSP is becoming too much mod dependent and for the ones who do not want to download mods there are really poor options.

Squad, is sad to say but you are adding almost useless stuff without giving it depth and valor or in better words too much meat on the fire before something is already cook. Let's look at the antennas.... they are there you can apply them but they are useless. the parts and what they do are the only way to give depth to the game because the real strength of KSP is the complete customization, not the overall look. there are mods that can give us communication, examination, exploration but it's absurd that all this cannot be done in the main game, without mention the resource gathering. If all those stuff were already implemented and only when all those stuff has been implemented you should add a real cool career, with a tech tree giving to kerbals roles and objectives. But for now the tech tree and the career mode is only a limitation for the game not a plus.

building cool stuff is the primary objective of this game, to make it more creative and cool we need parts and goals.

the most sad thing is that there are only 2 options to this comment: i'm right and KPS will taste like crude meat or i'm wrong and Squad have better options and priorities to give a greater taste to KPS's hamburger. this is not trolling are just my impressions.

I think the tech tree has to come prior to resources... How else would you determine the "resources value" to produce a part ?

[FlamedSteak]

i'm not happy at all because i think the career mode as the last step before the game's release. i still think the mining and gathering resources is the best way to give goals, fun, creativity and evolutions to the game. We really miss goals and objectives at all to think about a tech tree now. i think KSP is becoming too much mod dependent and for the ones who do not want to download mods there are really poor options.

Squad, is sad to say but you are adding almost useless stuff without giving it depth and valor or in better words too much meat on the fire before something is already cook. Let's look at the antennas.... they are there you can apply them but they are useless. the parts and what they do are the only way to give depth to the game because the real strength of KSP is the complete customization, not the overall look. there are mods that can give us communication, examination, exploration but it's absurd that all this cannot be done in the main game, without mention the resource gathering. If all those stuff were already implemented and only when all those stuff has been implemented you should add a real cool career, with a tech tree giving to kerbals roles and objectives. But for now the tech tree and the career mode is only a limitation for the game not a plus.

building cool stuff is the primary objective of this game, to make it more creative and cool we need parts and goals.

the most sad thing is that there are only 2 options to this comment: i'm right and KPS will taste like crude meat or i'm wrong and Squad have better options and priorities to give a greater taste to KPS's hamburger. this is not trolling are just my impressions.

I disagree, the purpose of this game is to make money. To attract more people in they need to actually have a game in here somewhere. As it stands KSP is a pseudo-orbital simulator, and the only objectives are self-purposed ones. Some people are okay with that, but there are a lot who need goals, they need something to beat. If Squad don't add in a career mode, they are cutting off a portion of their target market.

I want to see resources as much as anyone, but I also want to see Squad survive long enough to implement it.

[VerdammteSeele]

Maybe i missed something, but the tech tree would only be for career-mode, right? I don't want to be researching things to just chill in a sandbox, it'd kinda defeat the purpose.

As for career mode, I'm excited to see how the tree will work. I'm liking the idea of having to maintain your space program with money earned from jobs/missions while researching new parts. Hopefully the lack of initial parts won't make the game too difficult for newcomers. Don't want to deter people from playing the game.

[Robbii6]

Can somebody tell me... What is tree tech?

[Monkeh]

A tech tree is where you start with simple technology to research, like internal combustion. Then once you research that you can try to work out a jet engine. Once you got those then you can move on to rocket engines. Once they're done then ion engines. once they're done...onwards and onwards where the last tech researched opens up others to BE researched.

Like the branches of a tree stemming from one thick branch to ever thinner and thinner branches, or new technologies.

Here's one from the awesome 4X game Endless Space:

[Kimberly]

We really miss goals and objectives at all to think about a tech tree now.

We are missing goals and objectives. That's part of the reason the tech tree is being implemented--it gives us stuff to work towards! Your post seems pretty contradictory to me. You say we should delay career mode, i.e. goals and objectives, until we have goals and objectives... Maybe you have a very different idea of what "career mode" means than I do.

[Firenexus13]

I'm wondering about MODS! How in the world would they fit in with the tech tree? Will mods be disabled in career mode? And if so, all mods? what do you guys have in mind?

3 solutions:

1: mod parts have to be added to the/a tech tree

2: mod parts come without tech tree

3: Both! you can pick if you want your mod to be on the/a tech tree, or not at all! (recommended)

im hoping it's 3

Edited August 12, 2013 by Firenexus13

[Firenexus13]

When is it comming out?

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There you go... some time for the devs to polish it

You spelled "coming" wrong :3

[lewille]

You spelled "coming" wrong :3

Sorry, English is not my native language

[Firenexus13]

oh but that means that the devs will not take extra time because nobody said "when is it coming out?" >:3

[lazarus1024]

RE: realistic recovery savings.

I am not suggesting the entire mission return that much, just what you are actually able to return. Jettisoned stages are not considered recovered, just what you are actually "piloting". So if all you return is the capsule with parachutes on it, that is ALL you get refunded for. Especially since it is such a tiny part of the rocket, I think a 90% return is resonable incentive. I understand that realistically, if you could reuse it, even landing it in the water just off the shore is going to lead to costs way above 10% of the original manufacture and certification costs of the capsule.

However if the capsule is "1000 kerbal bucks" and the entire rocket is "One million Kerbal Bucks" and you get only 10% of the value returned for getting the capsule back to the KSC...there is just about no incentive at all to do it. At least if you got 900 KB back, it would give you some incentive. Or better yet you produce a ship design where you can return the entire CSM and land it nearby and maybe you returned 25,000 KB of your million KB rocket. Or you produce a shuttle design where you are landing 800,000KB of your million KB shuttle.