REQUEST: Duna Lander/ Orbiter with a hitch

[Turd]

I might be asking for too much... That could explain why this project has been nagging at me for two weeks now. But I'll try anyways! ANY DESIGNS you have that meet even a few of these criteria will be greatly appreciated. I can probably slap something together but I need some creative ideas to get me out of the rut I'm stuck in. Thanks for looking!

I need help (more accurately INSPIRATION) designing a Duna capable lander/orbiter that fits the aesthetics, and capabilities of my current fleet of interplanetary vessels. I have several ships that can already do the job, but nothing simple, small, and light enough to dock to the front of my TRAVELLER class vessels. I have landed on Duna twice already but that was in my WANDERER class ship that is essentially a self contained over engineered starship. Here's what I'd like:

*Complete ships are appreciated, craft files are very welcome but anything submitted will only be used as a template/inspiration for eventual lander.

*Must be able to undock from parent craft in Duna orbit, orbit Duna, deorbit, maneuver a little, land, achieve orbit again WITHOUT dropping/staging any parts, rendezvous with mother craft, redock, refuel, and be ready to do it again.

*100% reusable, 100% refuel-able. I have one design that works(ish) but is kaput because it uses many toroidal tanks that are a serious pain.

*Parachutes able to be reached by Kerbals on Duna surface for repacking.

*Dock to standard port at rear of lander, front of TRAVELLER.

*Be no more than roughly 2.5 hitchhiker containers in length, with no more than 25% overhang on each side of a standard large rocket part. (so no more than 1.5 hitchhikers in width)

*Engines mounted to rear of craft, no massive side nacelles but exceptions may be made.

*Minimum of two crew members. A single lander can is idea, but a large capsule would work as well.

*Front docking port. Essentially the top and bottom must both have useable ports to transfer crew and supplies while assembled to the main ship.

*Ideally the mass should be about 35 tons at the EXTREME upper limit.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First here is the ship in need of a lander, and what the lander need to dock to: The Traveller Mk.6. This is not a finalized design, some features will change before the actual Mk. 6 is put into orbit with the other TRAVELLER craft but the top port will stay the same.

For inspiration:

Here is the experimental lander I put together in about 20 minutes. The issue is it has low TWR, and might not make it off Duna with enough fuel to rendezvous with the TRAVELLER in orbit. Also the number of toroidal tanks inside the ship is nuts, no way I can sit there and refuel each tank without missing a bunch. The design is solid though, worked great on the Mun where those extra parachutes and ladders were pointless.

For more inspiration and "style" reference:

This guy is the Mk. 2 Transfer module temporarily used for crew transfers in Kerbin orbit. I also have one around Duna for emergencies. It is a SOLID little ship and I wish I could design a shorter version using a lander can with enough thrust to reach Duna Orbit and have some delta-V left for rendezvous. I really like the way this little cargo pod looks...

The reason I want a new lander in the first place:

Lastly, this is the WANDERER Mk. 4 Interplanetary lander/orbiter. This is a BAD little ship with over 300 parts, capable of reaching, landing on, and returning from Duna all by itself with the proper launcher/initial orbit. It can do this AND return with the capsule still attached to the lander/orbit section. The Mk. 1 and Mk. 2 were used for all my Mun landings, and the Mk. 3 and Mk.4 have been used on my Duna landings.

Problem?

THE SHIP IS PART HEAVY! Docking this to the front of the TRAVELLER creates a storm of lag, sometimes pressing F1 is enough to crash the game. The ship also weighs in at 50 some tons when fueled WITHOUT the transfer stage attached. Pushing this to Duna with the TRAVELLER is not an option (mass+part count=bad news). Launching it to Duna separately then sending the Kerbals over to it works (did that once but if I can send it all the way there by itself then why bother with the TRAVELLER at all?

This thing is not a lander, its a jack of all trades and a MONSTER. I want a little guy who can replace it and just land, orbit, then rendezvous for refueling.

Again thanks for any of your ideas, designs, etc! If you are interested in any of the craft I've posted let me know and I'll put up a file, such as it currently is.

[Sirine]

Here...try mine...<download>

Just because your word "kaput" I share my craft for you. (limited time offer-4 hrs from this post.).

You should be orbiting Kerbin with FULL 1440 fuel AND 360 fuel from the lander.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Sirine
Times up

[eran100]

Can you post the craft files?

[Turd]

I'll work on it tonight, free time priority is getting my SSTO mods working together and finishing a current Duna mission.

[Sigma]

I have a design that is (mostly) capable of doing this, but is incompatible with some of your aesthetic desires and your ship's docking layout

[sgt_flyer]

i'm working on a version which should be near your specifications. the lander has 84 parts for 2 kerbals, weights approximately 20 tons, and has a TWR of 1.72 on duna surface,with full fuel. it has 2500 m/s of delta-V at duna ground level, 2700 in vaccum.

here's a picture of it :

the other object you can see is a nuclear transfer stage i made for it, to test it on duna still in testing phase, i'm awaiting for the transfer window to open ^^

note : it will need to land under engine power, in addition of it's parachutes, duna atmo being waaayy too thin

Edited August 7, 2013 by sgt_flyer

[Turd]

i'm working on a version which should be near your specifications. the lander has 84 parts for 2 kerbals, weights approximately 20 tons, and has a TWR of 1.72 on duna surface,with full fuel. it has 2500 m/s of delta-V at duna ground level, 2700 in vaccum.

Nice! Here's an experimental lander I was screwing with last night, looks very similar to what you have. Before I put on the parachutes, legs, solar panels, and RCS ports it actually had a 1.2 TWR on Kerbin and 3200 Delta-V.

The clipping on yours looks much better, and I don't have a transfer stage unless I built an adapter for my Mk. 3 or Mk. 4 drive units... The TRAVELLER will have to do for now. I also like the way Kerbals can reach the chutes from the two ladders, I will have to add this to my contraption.

Looks like no real Kerbal progress for me tonight though, I just got done cleaning the throttle body and all the sensors on my broke *** Jeep.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Turd

[sojourner]

You guys are using the wrong engines. nukes get 500isp even at ground level on Duna. This is my lander from .19. Still works in .21.1. It can do fully powered landings on Duna and get back to at least 100km orbit. No chutes needed.

Edited August 8, 2013 by sojourner

[eran100]

You guys are using the wrong engines. nukes get 500isp even at ground level on Duna. This is my lander from .19. Still works in .21.1. It can do fully powered landings on Duna and get back to at least 100km orbit. No chutes needed.

Mother of god Craft file please?

[Turd]

You guys are using the wrong engines. nukes get 500isp even at ground level on Duna. This is my lander from .19. Still works in .21.1. It can do fully powered landings on Duna and get back to at least 100km orbit. No chutes needed.

I'd really like to the the specs on TWR, mass, Delta-v etc for just the lander.

If they really are better I wouldn't mind using them but the higher thrust and lower mass of the small engines it was made me use them. I very often have to make velocity changes in a HURRY with my landers/orbiters.

My chutes are staying either way, its almost free delta V!

[TheAndrewTaco]

I went way back and found some screenshots of a rather eccentric old lander design of mine. Yes, it's weird, but I think there are concepts you can apply to whatever you choose to build.

This one's a bit different-

You might say I went a bit nuts with the rovers, but having extras proved very useful. Also, notice the jet engines in the 2nd photo. The added weight is definitely worth it. The trick is to wait until you get very low into the atmosphere, and spool up the engines for a braking. You can then detach them upon ascent, and make use of the rocket fuel saved. The first photo also has drop tanks, or was supposed to originally. Very useful, I recommend that too.

Good luck with your endeavor

[Turd]

Wait... Since when did jet engines work on Duna?

[Sirine]

Well, just found out Eve don't have Oxygen in the atmosphere...jet engine wont work at Eve...Just FYI...

And for the craft file...sorry...times up. and mine craft was like a joke...only able to fly to Eve and stay there forever...

[eran100]

I might be asking for too much... That could explain why this project has been nagging at me for two weeks now. But I'll try anyways! ANY DESIGNS you have that meet even a few of these criteria will be greatly appreciated. I can probably slap something together but I need some creative ideas to get me out of the rut I'm stuck in. Thanks for looking!

I need help (more accurately INSPIRATION) designing a Duna capable lander/orbiter that fits the aesthetics, and capabilities of my current fleet of interplanetary vessels. I have several ships that can already do the job, but nothing simple, small, and light enough to dock to the front of my TRAVELLER class vessels. I have landed on Duna twice already but that was in my WANDERER class ship that is essentially a self contained over engineered starship. Here's what I'd like:

*Complete ships are appreciated, craft files are very welcome but anything submitted will only be used as a template/inspiration for eventual lander.

*Must be able to undock from parent craft in Duna orbit, orbit Duna, deorbit, maneuver a little, land, achieve orbit again WITHOUT dropping/staging any parts, rendezvous with mother craft, redock, refuel, and be ready to do it again.

*100% reusable, 100% refuel-able. I have one design that works(ish) but is kaput because it uses many toroidal tanks that are a serious pain.

*Parachutes able to be reached by Kerbals on Duna surface for repacking.

*Dock to standard port at rear of lander, front of TRAVELLER.

*Be no more than roughly 2.5 hitchhiker containers in length, with no more than 25% overhang on each side of a standard large rocket part. (so no more than 1.5 hitchhikers in width)

*Engines mounted to rear of craft, no massive side nacelles but exceptions may be made.

*Minimum of two crew members. A single lander can is idea, but a large capsule would work as well.

*Front docking port. Essentially the top and bottom must both have useable ports to transfer crew and supplies while assembled to the main ship.

*Ideally the mass should be about 35 tons at the EXTREME upper limit.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First here is the ship in need of a lander, and what the lander need to dock to: The Traveller Mk.6. This is not a finalized design, some features will change before the actual Mk. 6 is put into orbit with the other TRAVELLER craft but the top port will stay the same.

For inspiration:

Here is the experimental lander I put together in about 20 minutes. The issue is it has low TWR, and might not make it off Duna with enough fuel to rendezvous with the TRAVELLER in orbit. Also the number of toroidal tanks inside the ship is nuts, no way I can sit there and refuel each tank without missing a bunch. The design is solid though, worked great on the Mun where those extra parachutes and ladders were pointless.

For more inspiration and "style" reference:

This guy is the Mk. 2 Transfer module temporarily used for crew transfers in Kerbin orbit. I also have one around Duna for emergencies. It is a SOLID little ship and I wish I could design a shorter version using a lander can with enough thrust to reach Duna Orbit and have some delta-V left for rendezvous. I really like the way this little cargo pod looks...

The reason I want a new lander in the first place:

Lastly, this is the WANDERER Mk. 4 Interplanetary lander/orbiter. This is a BAD little ship with over 300 parts, capable of reaching, landing on, and returning from Duna all by itself with the proper launcher/initial orbit. It can do this AND return with the capsule still attached to the lander/orbit section. The Mk. 1 and Mk. 2 were used for all my Mun landings, and the Mk. 3 and Mk.4 have been used on my Duna landings.

Problem?

THE SHIP IS PART HEAVY! Docking this to the front of the TRAVELLER creates a storm of lag, sometimes pressing F1 is enough to crash the game. The ship also weighs in at 50 some tons when fueled WITHOUT the transfer stage attached. Pushing this to Duna with the TRAVELLER is not an option (mass+part count=bad news). Launching it to Duna separately then sending the Kerbals over to it works (did that once but if I can send it all the way there by itself then why bother with the TRAVELLER at all?

This thing is not a lander, its a jack of all trades and a MONSTER. I want a little guy who can replace it and just land, orbit, then rendezvous for refueling.

Again thanks for any of your ideas, designs, etc! If you are interested in any of the craft I've posted let me know and I'll put up a file, such as it currently is.

Can you post the craft files? I want to see what Can I do with your crafts.

[Turd]

I'm working on the craft files now, in a few hours I'll post a thread in the Rocket builders section and link to it here.

A word of warning though, I can't give out "launch ready versions" willy-nilly because to be honest I delete the "launch" version of each file after I make it to orbit. Makes each craft feel special and unique rather than just a bunch of data. You can hyper edit them into space, or build a new launch vehicle for each flight like I do. Trying out new staging and clustering designs is most of the fun for me! Each flight is a like a whole new experience. I will include a few craft with launch vehicles though, some of the rather old ones from my backup flash drive just as an example of how I slap my rockets together.

The designs are really simple, other than my SSTOs and the WANDERER I could rebuild them from memory alone.

EDIT: OK, thread is up and I'll add to it as I build more junk and get it uploaded.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/45134-TCS-Ind-%28Turd-Commercial-Spaceflight-Industries%29-Craft-Repository?p=579109#post579109

Edited August 8, 2013 by Turd

[TheAndrewTaco]

Wait... Since when did jet engines work on Duna?

Airhogging, silly.

[sgt_flyer]

ok, i finalized my lander the test mission had it going to duna, aerobrake into a 60x60 orbit around duna, separate from the transfer stage, land, get back into orbit, rendez-vous with the transfer stage, and gone back to kerbin for aerobrake, separate from the transfer stage and then landed back on kerbin

lander on duna (parachutes repacked by the kerbal ) :

duna ascent :

the lander docked with the transfer stage, after the transfer burn back to kerbin:

here's the .craft file, for the lander, transfer stage and it's launch vehicle (the launch vehicle is my modular angara rocket i always go back to it, because it can be adapted to such a wide range of payloads ) (the lander + the transfer stage weight 52 tons, the lander alone 19.5 tons)

http://www./download/ydhch38d6al40dj/Duna_lander.craft

you can use what you want from the .craft file, it's the one i used for the test mission, so there's the launch rocket and the transfer stage in addition to the lander.

if you use the launch vehicle provided, here's the ascent profile :

kerbin ascent (two stage to orbit):

hit 0 to disable gimbal on some of the skippers, to reduce the payload's wobbliness before liftoff.

liftoff at full throttle, start your G-turn at 8000m with a nice smooth curve to reach a 45° angle of attack at 15000m, 30° at 20000m, 20° at 30000m, and 0° at 50000m (your apoapsis will be near 80km at this point). the first stage will be dry around 30000m.

cut the engines when you reached your apoapsis, coast, and circularize as usual.

separate from the second stage, and deorbit it. (it has probe control and a few rcs for that)

----------

transfer stage :

the transfer stage can pump fuel directly from the main tank of the lander (the two other small tank will remain untouched) so you may wish to disable crossfeed on the docking port - although it's useful when making your transfer back from duna, no need to transfer fuel from the lander to the transfer stage (and the lander will still have a bit of fuel, to assist in kerbin landing at the end of the mission, with the two small tanks)

duna landing : deploy all the parachutes at the same time, the drogues will do their job - you'll need to use a bit of fuel to cushion the landing though.

duna ascent : i'm not really an expert on duna ascent, i just started my g turn not long after takeoff, turning fast to a 45° angle of attack, and then slowly to 0° and burned until i hit my desired apoapsis, and then circularized after reaching apo.

docking back to the transfer stage should be pretty straightforward - you can use either docking port of the lander for that.

kerbin landing : kerbin landing works the same as duna landing, you need to cushion a bit the landing with the engines (it's able to do a parachute landing on kerbin with almost all it's fuel still in the tanks, in case of an unplanned rapid disassembly of the rocket)

so, here's my lander, use it and name it as you see fit

Edited August 8, 2013 by sgt_flyer

[Turd]

Airhogging, silly.

Huh I was under the impression that no matter how much intake-air you had the engines still produced no thrust. Somebody been lying!

[sojourner]

Hey guys, glad you liked the lander. Good thing I kept my old versions of the game. I went back to .18.2 where I used this lander alot and reran a full sequence from Duna orbit to ground and back with stats. Here are the screen caps, notice the starting mass, mass after dropping the ANT rover, and d/v remaining at various stages. last shot is it back in a 150km orbit.

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot12.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot13.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot11.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot10.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot15.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot14.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot18.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot16.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot19.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot22.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot17.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot20.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot23.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot21.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot27.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot28.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot25.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot29.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot26.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot24.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot30.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot31.png~original

These next 4 images are the lander mostly recreated (still needs some little things) in .21.1. Haven't taken it to Duna yet, but it should work just as well as in .18.2. As you can see it's a simple build, and while some parts clip, I did not have to use the devtool menu to enable clipping.

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot10-1.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot8.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot7.png~original

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr153/seattle221/Kerbal/nukelander/screenshot9.png~original

(Yes, Photobucket sucks. If you click through the zoom function in the bottom right corner of the images enough times you'll get to the hi-res versions where you can read the text.)

Edited August 8, 2013 by sojourner

[Mesklin]

Here is lander as per request: 65 details, 15.3 t, about 3000 m/s DelatV (enough for all operations for landing and return to motnership on Mars orbit with spare 600 m/s DeltaV)

http://imgur.com/a/O2b56#0

Craft file: http://www./download/h6d033cad22avme/_Dune_Lander_Mk2.craft

Lander with delivery stage and rocket: http://www./download/4l387bftx86h7sj/_Dune_Lander_Mk3.craft. Before burn disable crosfeed on the bottom docking port. Start nuclear engines at 3 km altitude. DeltaV in rocket enough for climb to 80x80 km orbit.

[Turd]

Here is what I have been messing with, just took it to orbit with Jeb and Bill and docked it to the BEAGLE (Traveller Mk. 4-A). After a quick Mun landing for testing I'll either hitch it or another one to the ADVENTURE (Traveller Mk. 3-, do a quick crew swap with one of the spare transfer modules waiting in orbit and send it on to Duna for a real test.

[TheAndrewTaco]

That looks great! Could you share the .craft file?

[Turd]

Link is now in my sig to what I have uploaded so far anyways... I'm literally going as fast as a can taking screen caps, uploading, finding the correct files, putting them on the spaceport, etc.

[Turd]

Yeah, my test of the "re-useable" portion of my lander didn't go so hot. Apparently an internal strut snapped so one engine drew fuel from the wrong place upsetting the center of mass.

I saved the two Kerbals though. No deaths yet in .21! I think they were only on the surface for like 18-20 hours before the new lander arrived. More struts, redundant fuel lines, tougher landing legs... Better than new!

[Benji13]

On 08/08/2013 at 0:42 PM, sojourner said:

You guys are using the wrong engines. nukes get 500isp even at ground level on Duna. This is my lander from .19. Still works in .21.1. It can do fully powered landings on Duna and get back to at least 100km orbit. No chutes needed.

This is great. How did you make this? @sojourner