[space] Is Mars-one a scam?

[Moar Boosters]

It sounds like you are equating the effects of micro gravity with those of Martian gravity. Living with essentially no gravity vs living with partial gravity that is over a third of earths gravity is a very different thing. We don't know how Martian gravity will affect a human body. The trips to Mars and back, without any artificial gravity will be damaging to be sure but life threatening sounds unreasonable.

I'm sure a NASA style trip to Mars and back wouldn't be too problematic, but that wasn't the scenario he was taking about. He was talking about a rescue mission in the event that the mars one habitat fails or funding dries up. From what we've seen the effects of microgravity get worse the longer you stay, so assuming lowered gravity has a similar but lesser effect as microgravity, if they're there for any reasonable duration of time the chances of them being in any shape to return to earth isn't very good.

[Nibb31]

From what we've seen the effects of microgravity get worse the longer you stay, so assuming lowered gravity has a similar but lesser effect as microgravity...

That's a very bold assumption with nothing at all to back it up. We simply have zero data on the effects of partial gravity.

[Moar Boosters]

That's a very bold assumption with nothing at all to back it up. We simply have zero data on the effects of partial gravity.

It's basic biology. A person's bone density and muscle mass is directly related to the stresses put on the body. If a 200lb man goes to live on mars he'll weigh about 65lb, and his bone density and muscle mass will adjust accordingly. There would be no reason for his body to retain the bone density and muscle mass required for functioning on earth.

[peadar1987]

It's basic biology. A person's bone density and muscle mass is directly related to the stresses put on the body. If a 200lb man goes to live on mars he'll weigh about 65lb, and his bone density and muscle mass will adjust accordingly. There would be no reason for his body to retain the bone density and muscle mass required for functioning on earth.

But we don't know the exact effects. For example, is there a threshold where the osteoblasts just stop bothering? Does it scale linearly with gravity? Is the rate of osteogenesis related to peak force or average force? Are there drugs which can inhibit or block the rate of bone and muscle loss? Do those drugs have side-effects?

We simply don't know. It could be a massive problem, or it could be no problem at all.

The best way of finding out is to put a counterweighted research facility in LEO and spin it up so it creates artificial gravity of 0.3g, then put people in there to see what happens.

[Moar Boosters]

But we don't know the exact effects. For example, is there a threshold where the osteoblasts just stop bothering? Does it scale linearly with gravity? Is the rate of osteogenesis related to peak force or average force? Are there drugs which can inhibit or block the rate of bone and muscle loss? Do those drugs have side-effects?

We simply don't know. It could be a massive problem, or it could be no problem at all.

The best way of finding out is to put a counterweighted research facility in LEO and spin it up so it creates artificial gravity of 0.3g, then put people in there to see what happens.

I agree. That would be the best way. The worst way the worst way to find out would be to colonise Mars for a decade or so, and they try and bring the human guinea-pigs back to earth when the money runs out. (I was originally responding to Rokkers post on how there were no reasons why a rescue mission wouldn't be feasible).

[Red Fang]

Hmmm. I am more worried about astronauts landing on Mars after 6-9 months spent in microgravity. Will they be able to perform their mission effectively after a long stay? Helping them recuperate on return to Earth/LEO or leaving them in LEO permanently sound better than dying because nobody was capable of making a quick repair on a damaged LV within hours/minutes after landing on Mars.

So, transit to Mars is the bottleneck that has to be researched first.

It would be a major achievement for Mars one to get sufficient funds to sponsor (in part) any legitimate research related to exploration of Mars, even if it means making another reality show on Earth to get the said funds. I'd say that would give them absolute legitimacy in the fight for the the cause of going to Mars. In that light, if that is their actual goal, than, all this huffing and puffing is just marketing that may be dismissed as means to the end. I somehow have a feeling that is not the case.

[peadar1987]

Hmmm. I am more worried about astronauts landing on Mars after 6-9 months spent in microgravity. Will they be able to perform their mission effectively after a long stay? Helping them recuperate on return to Earth/LEO or leaving them in LEO permanently sound better than dying because nobody was capable of making a quick repair on a damaged LV within hours/minutes after landing on Mars.

So, transit to Mars is the bottleneck that has to be researched first.

It would be a major achievement for Mars one to get sufficient funds to sponsor (in part) any legitimate research related to exploration of Mars, even if it means making another reality show on Earth to get the said funds. I'd say that would give them absolute legitimacy in the fight for the the cause of going to Mars. In that light, if that is their actual goal, than, all this huffing and puffing is just marketing that may be dismissed as means to the end. I somehow have a feeling that is not the case.

Well that's actually the easy part. All you need is a counterweight you can reel out, and create any value of gravity you want in outer space. It's only once you're on a planet that you don't get to choose your own gravitational acceleration. I'm presume any habitat going to Mars would initially spin at a speed to cause earth gravity, and gradually slow down so it was simulating Mars gravity at the end, to allow the astronauts to acclimatise.

[NFUN]

Many of you seem to forget that the astronauts in the ISS already have ways to fight bone/muscle degradation in low gravity, specifically COLBERT. Exercise machines could be brought to Mars and used en route to protect the colonists's bodies. In addition, parts of the lander that might no longer be necessary could potentially serve as weights that the colonists can wear while performing non-essential duties on the planet. Suits could be worn that would simulate the explorers's original 1G weights could be tailored to be worn on Mars as well. Some of these solutions are a little too complicated.

And yes, these solutions probably aren't perfect, but it wouldn't be an insurmountable task to plan rehab for the astronauts back on Earth for their return.

[NERVAfan]

It's basic biology. A person's bone density and muscle mass is directly related to the stresses put on the body. If a 200lb man goes to live on mars he'll weigh about 65lb, and his bone density and muscle mass will adjust accordingly. There would be no reason for his body to retain the bone density and muscle mass required for functioning on earth.

One would think exercise should compensate for this at least partially. If I jump to my max strength on Mars, I will hit the ground just as hard (same stress on my leg bones/muscles) as on Earth, though I'll go 2.6 times higher.

Plus wearing a weighted suit should approximate Earth gravity fairly well.

[andrewas]

Exercise will help prevent muscle loss, though it'll take a lot of cardio to keep the heart in shape for return to Earth. Bones are another matter, the body does not produce osteoblasts in microgravity, so it can't lay down calcium in the bones. If the same is true in Martian gravity, then long-term habitation is impossible. And another big question that I don't think has come up yet - can we have children on Mars? Because if we can't, I want to find out by hearing about experiments done in LEO with lab animals, and not by hearing about a wave of stillbirths in Mars One's colony. We know we can't reproduce in microgravity, but you can't interpolate between 0g and 1g and say that mars g will be somewhere in the middle.

[NERVAfan]

We know we can't reproduce in microgravity

We do?

I'm pretty sure rats have given birth in microgravity and it's never been tried with people (or primates IIRC) ... I'm also not aware of anyone doing a "full cycle" from adult rats through natural reproduction, pregnancy, birth, development to adulthood again so...

I can see "unwise" (since it seems like there might be a higher risk of miscarriage... if we can extrapolate results from in-vitro fertilization and simulated microgravity via a clinostat to natural reproduction and real microgravity) but I don't think "can't be done" is accurate.

Do you have a source that suggests otherwise?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2654469 "The flight experiment on female rats has shown that fetuses can grow and develop when the maternal organisms is exposed to microgravity. The data concerning the effect of microgravity on the reproductive function of mammalian males are limited and controversial. Analyzing them, it can be noted that the changes seen are small and reversible and that cells involved in spermatogenesis show greater resistance to space flight factors than other continuously renovating cell populations"

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0006753 " Fertilization occurred normally in vitro under µG. However, although we obtained 75 healthy offspring from µG-fertilized and -cultured embryos after transfer to recipient females, the birth rate was lower than among the 1G controls. Immunostaining demonstrated that in vitro culture under µG caused slower development and fewer trophectoderm cells than in 1G controls but did not affect polarization of the blastocyst. These results suggest for the first time that fertilization can occur normally under µG environment in a mammal, but normal preimplantation embryo development might require 1G." [My comment: "Might require" seems an overstatement, since they DID get pups in simulated microgravity... "healthier", sure, but... This is a spinning experiment though, should be tried in actual microgravity... also with natural reproduction rather than in-vitro fertilization]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11496419 "It was found out that the compensatory and adaptive potentials of mammalians (Wistar rats) in microgravity are sufficient to let proceed pregnancy, and activate anabolic processes associated with fetus growth and water-salt homeostasis maintenance. In a number of aspects effects of microgravity on the mother-fetus systems appear to be less significant than of various factors on Earth"

EDIT: I'd be very surprised if Mars gravity proved to be unworkable for humans if you took precautions (like exercise, maybe weights.)

Edited April 30, 2014 by NERVAfan

[NERVAfan]

Exercise will help prevent muscle loss, though it'll take a lot of cardio to keep the heart in shape for return to Earth. Bones are another matter, the body does not produce osteoblasts in microgravity, so it can't lay down calcium in the bones. If the same is true in Martian gravity, then long-term habitation is impossible.

Is there any reason to think it would be true in Martian gravity? Your legs are going to push as hard on Mars as they do on Earth -- you'll walk/jump with bigger bounds, but the stresses from striking the ground should be the same if you make the same muscle movements (barring minor differences due to air resistance for a jump). I don't think Mars gravity will be anything like zero-gravity in terms of effects.

EDIT: especially if you used weights...

[SargeRho]

Well, Mars gravity is just 1/3 of Earth gravity. It's nowhere near as strong as Earth's.

[lajoswinkler]

Exercise will help prevent muscle loss, though it'll take a lot of cardio to keep the heart in shape for return to Earth. Bones are another matter, the body does not produce osteoblasts in microgravity, so it can't lay down calcium in the bones. If the same is true in Martian gravity, then long-term habitation is impossible. And another big question that I don't think has come up yet - can we have children on Mars? Because if we can't, I want to find out by hearing about experiments done in LEO with lab animals, and not by hearing about a wave of stillbirths in Mars One's colony. We know we can't reproduce in microgravity, but you can't interpolate between 0g and 1g and say that mars g will be somewhere in the middle.

Do you mean we can't have s-e-x or we can't reproduce? Because we can have s-e-x, with difficulties, but human fertilization, gestation, that wasn't part of any experiment that I know about. I don't see why that wouldn't be possible. Gravity doesn't seem to be a factor in fertilization or early embriogenesis.

(Really, admins? I can't spell ***? )

[andrewas]

Intercourse is a minor problem in microg and no problem at all if the gravity is strong enough to hold you down. Humans are really good at making this possible.

But I was under the impression that mammalian fetuses had been observe to fail to develop in microgravity. I can't find that article again, though. What i can find is that various systems behave differently in microgravity, even at scales where gravity should be a trivial force. For instance, osteoblast formation is hindered in micogravity. The stem cells responsible act differently. I'd imagine that would have severe consequences for fetal development, and who knows how many other systems act differently? On the other hand, cockroaches have bred successfully in space so maybe its less of a problem than I thought. I still want experiments done with mammals in martian gravity before we send anyone to Mars on a one-way trip.

[Nibb31]

There is no maybe this or maybe that. We simply don't know the effects of microgravity or partial gravity on development of a foetus, an infant or a child.

[NASAFanboy]

There is no maybe this or maybe that. We simply don't know the effects of microgravity or partial gravity on development of a foetus, an infant or a child.

But we can assume, and right now, an assumption that is probably 99.9999% accurate is the best we can do.

[SargeRho]

I guess it's time to send some Mice to the ISS then.

[Motokid600]

My question is.. can a woman after spending a year in micro gravity or Martian gravity.. withstand the physical trauma of child birth?

[Dkmdlb]

I guess it's time to send some WOMEN to the ISS then.

FTFY.

Just kidding, but it looks like there hasn't been any really rigorous studies of the subject, though the studies that have been done are encouraging.

This, for instance: "the available data suggest that numerous aspects of pregnancy, birth and early mammalian development can proceed under altered gravity conditions."

[Rokker]

Actually, I was just thinking, could we get around the dilemma of strength and fitness by having them wear weighted suits around that cause their weight to be Earth-equivalent.

[Seret]

The whole question is somewhat moot. It's highly unlikely Mars One would authorise its Martians to breed.

[peadar1987]

The whole question is somewhat moot. It's highly unlikely Mars One would authorise its Martians to breed.

On the contrary, if they're looking to fund it as a reality TV show, what better way to boost ratings? The first human born on another world has a pretty big pull to it.

[lajoswinkler]

Intercourse is a minor problem in microg and no problem at all if the gravity is strong enough to hold you down. Humans are really good at making this possible.

But I was under the impression that mammalian fetuses had been observe to fail to develop in microgravity. I can't find that article again, though. What i can find is that various systems behave differently in microgravity, even at scales where gravity should be a trivial force. For instance, osteoblast formation is hindered in micogravity. The stem cells responsible act differently. I'd imagine that would have severe consequences for fetal development, and who knows how many other systems act differently? On the other hand, cockroaches have bred successfully in space so maybe its less of a problem than I thought. I still want experiments done with mammals in martian gravity before we send anyone to Mars on a one-way trip.

Try to find the article, it sounds interesting, but I don't recall any such experiments (legally acknowledged) in orbit. We're having enough trouble with religious nuts influencing human embryo research on Earth already.

Embryogenesis should not be affected by lower gravity or microgravity. Zygote and other early stages are flipping around in the body, neutrally buoyant, and they're gel-like themselves. Significantly higher gravity might pose a problem, though.

I seriously doubt there was never an experiment with embryogenesis in orbit. It's so easy to do it with sea urchins and other lower animals.

I guess it's time to send some Mice to the ISS then.

AFAIK there were plenty of mice and rats up there, but I don't know if they were reproducing.

My question is.. can a woman after spending a year in micro gravity or Martian gravity.. withstand the physical trauma of child birth?

I'm thinking of shattered pelvises right now. You've raised a good question.

Actually, I was just thinking, could we get around the dilemma of strength and fitness by having them wear weighted suits around that cause their weight to be Earth-equivalent.

That's only going to affect certain aspects of the physiology. The body is still under weaker gravity.

The whole question is somewhat moot. It's highly unlikely Mars One would authorise its Martians to breed.

And how exactly would they legally enforce such decision?

[Seret]

On the contrary, if they're looking to fund it as a reality TV show, what better way to boost ratings? The first human born on another world has a pretty big pull to it.

There is that aspect, but there are about a million practical and ethical factors that speak against the wisdom of adding extra mouths to feed in a cramped habitat stranded millions of km away from Earth in a poisonous atmosphere and only periodically resupplied at great expense. It's not at all an appropriate environment for raising a child, and they'd expose themselves to severe criticism if they simply did it for ratings.

And how exactly would they legally enforce such decision?

The exact legal status of their people they sent is probably an interesting question for the lawyers, but one assumes they would be employees of Mars One so they'd be under contract to follow directions from their controllers. This does raise the interesting question of how Mars One would punish any breach of contract, but in actual practical terms the fact that the outpost would be utterly dependent on Earth for resupply does mean there's a limit to how tetchy they could get away with being. At a minimum Mars One could discipline them by limiting access to things like news and entertainment from Earth, comms with family members, and quality of food and creature comforts sent in replenishment missions. The power balance in the relationship is entirely in favour of their controllers on Earth.