ISA MapSat "Legacy" discussion

[Benzschwagel]

hmm, I wonder how long it will be before innsewerants comes back, it's been pretty long, and it would be nice if he only came back to say, "do what you want with it", because then others could start it back up and improve on his work.

Edit: By the way, who knows what happens when someone makes something like this without giving license for others to continue it, and then dies, and no one knows about it? How long before it is considered abandoned?

EDIT: Innsewerants is very much alive and will continue ISA MapSat in the future, he's currently taking a break at the moment. He wants to keep rights reserved to himself and will announce if he wishes to change that in the future, although he will probably seek a replacement first. 17Oct2013

Edited October 17, 2013 by Benzschwagel
New Info

[Kimberly]

Edit: By the way, who knows what happens when someone makes something like this without giving license for others to continue it, and then dies, and no one knows about it? How long before it is considered abandoned?

Copyright terms don't change if a work is "abandoned". It would expire 70 years after Innsewerants' death. (Or 100 years after publication, I think, for an anonymous author. But Innsewerants has published his legal name.)

[GavinZac]

Copyright terms don't change if a work is "abandoned". It would expire 70 years after Innsewerants' death. (Or 100 years after publication, I think, for an anonymous author. But Innsewerants has published his legal name.)

You can't give a solid definition of 'when'; Copyright expiration varies from place to place; for instance some micronations don't have any copyright at all. However, it probably would be against the spirit of these forums to upload derivative works to a web host in The Marshall Islands.

[Kimberly]

You can't give a solid definition of 'when'; Copyright expiration varies from place to place; for instance some micronations don't have any copyright at all. However, it probably would be against the spirit of these forums to upload derivative works to a web host in The Marshall Islands.

Well I assumed we were going off of US copyright law. (After all, Squad is in the United States, and so is Innsewerants.) But the length is similar among the major nations of the world, anyway.

[Schmonzo]

Well I assumed we were going off of US copyright law. (After all, Squad is in the United States, and so is Innsewerants.) But the length is similar among the major nations of the world, anyway.

What makes you think SQUAD is in the USA? Last time I checked they were based in Mexico, or has that canged?

[GavinZac]

Well I assumed we were going off of US copyright law. (After all, Squad is in the United States, and so is Innsewerants.) But the length is similar among the major nations of the world, anyway.

Copyright law is imposed by the country of the end user, not the product producer. The USA can't simply say "All Elvis songs are now copyrighted for a billion years" and act huffy when everyone ignores them - like The Seychelles, where due to their 25 year copyright laws, all Elvis songs are now Public domain since last year.

[Kimberly]

Copyright law is imposed by the country of the end user, not the product producer. The USA can't simply say "All Elvis songs are now copyrighted for a billion years" and act huffy when everyone ignores them - like The Seychelles, where due to their 25 year copyright laws, all Elvis songs are now Public domain since last year.

Sure, but how many people live in the Seychelles? The EU and US have similar copyright terms, and many countries do base their copyright for foreign works on the term it would have in the country of origin.

What makes you think SQUAD is in the USA? Last time I checked they were based in Mexico, or has that canged?

It was a bad joke. Innsewerants is actually in the Netherlands.

[GavinZac]

if he is still make nothing another one can make a new version of this plugin...like it is postet in the Moding Rules...)

No such rule exists in the Modding Rules. In fact, it expressly says the opposite.

Does anyone know what the problem is yet? As a reminder:

I have the Innsewerants Space Agency folder under GameData.

Inside are the Parts, Plugins and PluginData folders.

The parts do not show up in the VAB.

Anyone know why?

Show us a screenshot of the directory, and copy/paste in the contents of one of the parts. Most likely based on many, many instances of the same problem, you've installed an out of date version.

[Benzschwagel]

Well, I'm not sure about what you guys think, but if it wasn't innsewerants, someone else would have come up with this, since it is such a logical next step. For someone to create something so important as this, but then leave before finishing it, it seems very illogical to me for work to cease until said creator pops up again. What about a fork? Now, I know that there is the idea of copyrights involved, but what does this mod cover in terms of intellectual content? Can something similar be created that isn't the same thing? It just seems like a waste for this to just die. So, what are the limitations of making something new, from scratch? Also, what if Squad already had plans for creating this, as in had it written down or it was already in the programming, but they just didn't have time to turn it into something, does this interfere with this mod in some way or vice versa?

[crooks4hire]

As far as copyrights are concerned, it is illegal to copy the work for redistribution. To my understanding, it is not illegal to derive a mod from ISAMapSat (the idea, not the source code). Just because Innsewerants developed the first mapping mod for KSP doesn't mean another modder can't develop his own mapping mod...

[Benzschwagel]

hmm, so, who wants to take a stab at making something new? a type of satellite recon mod for mapping, maybe even something that can scan for methane and communicate with remote tech? anyone, anyone?

edit: lol, methane, meant Kethane

Edited August 21, 2013 by Benzschwagel

[GavinZac]

Well, I'm not sure about what you guys think, but if it wasn't innsewerants, someone else would have come up with this, since it is such a logical next step. For someone to create something so important as this, but then leave before finishing it, it seems very illogical to me for work to cease until said creator pops up again. What about a fork? Now, I know that there is the idea of copyrights involved, but what does this mod cover in terms of intellectual content? Can something similar be created that isn't the same thing? It just seems like a waste for this to just die. So, what are the limitations of making something new, from scratch? Also, what if Squad already had plans for creating this, as in had it written down or it was already in the programming, but they just didn't have time to turn it into something, does this interfere with this mod in some way or vice versa?

I think you're using the word 'fork' incorrectly here. 'Forking' a project is using the existing codebase and adding to it, often in such a way that the changes are tracked and can be merged back into the 'master'. It's not legal to fork a project, just because the code is open source. Yes, often it is, but it depends on the license the OP has given.

I have actually looked at and played with Insewerants' code while developing a short lived plugin that overlaid the Kethane map on the ISAMap before Majiir switched to the 3D mode. I have some ideas about how the memory footprint could be reduced while retaining the much higher resolution scans than before. However, I would not distribute the results without the permission of the person who instigated and did 99% of the work.

[KnutG]

I have some ideas about how the memory footprint could be reduced while retaining the much higher resolution scans than before. However, I would not distribute the results without the permission of the person who instigated and did 99% of the work.

Maybe, you can send Inservants a direct private message about this - evtl. He send you an "ok - do this"...? )

[Benzschwagel]

what about just a plain new mod? I would personally like to see something that will scan a larger path than the original, since it took so long to do a full scan before in 0.20.2, and as of 0.21.1, I can't even run KSP long without it crashing (this thread).

Edit: So, I guess this is a call for a new mapping mod if Innsewerants does not return soon...

Edited August 21, 2013 by Benzschwagel

[John FX]

I just want to know in advance if where I plan to land will kill me or not. Don`t need fancy this and that or high rez maps that I could read the paper on from orbit. Just altitude and pitch for a selected place. Don`t even need to have maps in memory, i`d be happy reading numerical values straight from the original data when hovering the cursor over the map.

All I need to know is, how high is that bit, how flat is that bit and what are the coordinates I need to land there. If the main map was used then mechjeb landing pointers, kethane maps and mapsat(or whatever the new thing is) scans would all be there on the same display giving great info for the user.

It would go like - `move pointer to point on map` "2300m 15 degrees +1.8163 -20.3459" that will do, enter those coordinates into mechjeb and go make coffee.

come back with coffee load quicksave and see why the crash happened...

but that`s another issue hehe

[johnsonwax]

If anyone is considering this, I would strongly encourage building off of Majiir's hex grid with Kethane mod. It's one of the more brilliant ideas I've seen and nicely solves the nasty problem of balancing in-game time to acquire information. It provides an additional benefit of providing a standard interface beyond coordinates for specifying location if you were to put an ID on each grid. A map interface over the planet is slightly redundant (beneficial when not illuminated), but with an interface that allowed you to click on a hex grid and have it expand into a high resolution map of the grid so you could choose a coordinate for landing - well, that'd be fantastic - particularly if you could mark the locations of ships on the surface, etc. Keeps everything in game, in context, and as new ideas are introduced people can continue to add information layers to the interface so an expansion could produce topographic maps and so on.

[Benzschwagel]

that would actually be pretty cool, to be able to call up info and feed it to multiple other mods (kethane, mechjeb, remote tech, b9, firespitter, etc...), and maybe even fork a part of kethane to start it.

[Kimberly]

If anyone is considering this, I would strongly encourage building off of Majiir's hex grid with Kethane mod. It's one of the more brilliant ideas I've seen and nicely solves the nasty problem of balancing in-game time to acquire information. It provides an additional benefit of providing a standard interface beyond coordinates for specifying location if you were to put an ID on each grid. A map interface over the planet is slightly redundant (beneficial when not illuminated), but with an interface that allowed you to click on a hex grid and have it expand into a high resolution map of the grid so you could choose a coordinate for landing - well, that'd be fantastic - particularly if you could mark the locations of ships on the surface, etc. Keeps everything in game, in context, and as new ideas are introduced people can continue to add information layers to the interface so an expansion could produce topographic maps and so on.

Wouldn't a hexagonal grid be a big step backwards in terms of detail? I think the current implementation is essentially perfect, with actual scan beams that depend on your particular orbit, with a resolution adjustable in the settings so you can get a clear picture at your orbit or time warp (at the cost of increased in-game scanning time).

When will this be updated to 2.1? Im getting a "no terrain detected" thing and im suspecting that's why.

You need to go into the Mapsat settings, and check "Auto-update hilo.dat", then delete your hilo.dat file. This will cause it to rebuild the file based on 0.21.1's terrain--the function is specifically designed to maintain compatibility after terrain updates.

[johnsonwax]

Wouldn't a hexagonal grid be a big step backwards in terms of detail? I think the current implementation is essentially perfect, with actual scan beams that depend on your particular orbit, with a resolution adjustable in the settings so you can get a clear picture at your orbit or time warp (at the cost of increased in-game scanning time).

Actually, it'd be a big step forward. In order to reveal a hex, you'd merely need to fly over it. No more optimal mapping efforts to make sure you hit every single pixel which is a bit of a drag given the need to have the mapping craft in focus - how many of us have let KSP run overnight unattended simply so we could get a map? That's annoying. And optimal mapping for ISA was different from optimal mapping for Kethane. That would end. We'd have a single unified mechanism - load up your ship with all your detectors and do it all.

But the existing ISA maps as viewed in-game are very low detail. There's much more data behind them but there's no interface mechanism to reveal that. Majiir's hexes can be interacted with - you hover over them and they give you more detail. The same could happen here so that if you click on a hex, the hex expands to give you a near-full-screen detailed view of just that hex - not stretched crazily at the poles so you have trouble determining actual distances, and in vastly more detailed than the current maps provide. Or it can give the hex you click plus the 6 immediately surrounding ones, so you have detail and context. Click on a neighboring hex and it centers and loads the boundary maps. Planning a trip or a landing site would be much clearer, much easier. With layers you could see a kethane map, then switch to a terrain map, then a topography map, and any other kind of map you want to add - other resources, etc. A generalized framework would allow anyone who wanted to mod in anything along these lines a big help with getting that going, which will only result in more and better mods. Majiir would need to agree and support this, but it's worth asking.

And if you wanted the 'more scanning for greater detail', you can still do that by requiring multiple passes over a hex to reveal that. But it would also allow multiple mechanisms to deliver that - bigger more expensive scanners, multiple scanners per vessel, etc. I'm not sure what the merits are of asking players to 50x warp for an hour vs 3 minutes. That's not an hour I'm enjoying the game more. I'm not even interacting with the game, so any challenge has already been achieved simply by building and delivering the ship to the proper orbit.

[MOARdV]

...snip...

And if you wanted the 'more scanning for greater detail', you can still do that by requiring multiple passes over a hex to reveal that. But it would also allow multiple mechanisms to deliver that - bigger more expensive scanners, multiple scanners per vessel, etc. I'm not sure what the merits are of asking players to 50x warp for an hour vs 3 minutes. That's not an hour I'm enjoying the game more. I'm not even interacting with the game, so any challenge has already been achieved simply by building and delivering the ship to the proper orbit.

I have been thinking the exact thing since Majir introduced the hexes. That functionality provides the basic mapping ("Have I mapped this region?"). It's not clear to me that his API supports this use model (initialize the whole map's data to 'zero detail', and increase it manually with each pass), but that would be the ideal. I stopped using MapSat after trying unsuccessfully to use the dev build (too much memory required, unless I kill the render and texture quality for everything else in-game), and I stopped using the previous version. Creating maps is too much of a chore, and it ties up my game when I would rather do something else (launch something, land something, build something).

[drtedastro]

Personally, I prefer the ISA over the Kethane. Call me old fashioned or whatever, but my preference has been and will continue to be for the original ISA methodology. I think that if you want fast, you get low resolution, the lower the altitude and tighter the scan area, the better the map. I actually would much prefer if there was more of a probability of 'missing' the deposits if only using low resolution mapping method....

But hey, that's just me.

So before people go and get ready to scrap the 'old' method, remember that there may be some of us 'old folks' that like having the data acquired and displayed that way.

The perfect would be to have ability for either / and / or.... Data accuracy should NOT be a function of the display method. Acquire the data in whatever resolution you want (hell, if it is slow, just cheat) and then analyze and plot the data however you like.

Gives it a nice 'real world' touch.

[johnsonwax]

Gives it a nice 'real world' touch.

Except that it doesn't. Real world your satellite keeps working even when you're doing other things. That's the entire problem. If I could map and get more detail while I'm driving a rover on the Mun I'd love the current system. Doesn't work that way and there's no way for the mod author to change that and it's a bit of a drag to force the player to blow through a month of in-game time just to get a decent map of a planet, preventing any other thing from happening during that period. This method makes additions like life support exceedingly annoying to support because it creates a universe in which only one thing can happen at a time. We need to find ways around that.

[drtedastro]

agreed, but 'that fix' will be with a new Unity and ability to keep parallel missions running, not serial. Nothing to do with the Sat or scanner. If it bores you that much, save those runs for night, or sometime when you are not slumped in front of the monitor. I also really hate the fact that we can not multitask, and it drives me nuts, but not to the point of trying to find a quick work around or way out of doing certain tasks....

Each person will have their own preferences, likes and dislikes... That is what make us tick.... I enjoy working on the small details, like predictive orbital maneuvers to maximize coverage and minimize acquisition time. But hell, that type of work is what I have been doing for 35 years....in the exploration industry.

If it takes so much time to make a 'good' map, and it takes ten times that amount of time to make a great map. so be it. Only time and working with the data will let me know if the extra time was justified by better and more accurate data.

I play this not to get to an end, but for the play, the thought. I am looking forward to being able to setup and fly missions with out ever seeing the 'first person' part of the game. Program the flight entirely before countdown and then live with the consequences and / or be able to react and reprogram accordingly.

If I need a quick fix of pseudo adrenaline, I will go shoot someone down in War Thunder or get bored with WoT....

But again, that is just me.........

Hell, let's hope that we can both get our wish ... Still the best game in town by me....

[Majiir]

I should probably chime in here. I've been thinking about a mapping replacement for a short while, and the geodesic grid code could definitely come in handyâ€â€although not necessarily the way you'd expect.

Icosahedral grid cells are roughly evenly distributed around the surface of a sphere, so they're useful for data storage. In particular, icosahedral grids don't suffer distortion at the poles. Even if you end up rendering a 2D map, storing the data using a geodesic grid has advantages; on a rectangular map, polar data will look a little more stretched, which helps latitude perception.

The grid can also be used to build a spherical mesh (smooth, not with individual hexagons) that can be textured without polar distortion. Alternatively, you could use a vertex shader and crank up the subdivisions. You can easily adjust the mesh to fit the shape of the planet this way.

A hex-based approach with a detailed view could also work. A big advantage here is that you don't actually have to store as much data. You can just store a level of detail for each cell, and then sample terrain levels when you want to render a detailed view.

Quick myth-busting: it's not impossible for a satellite to scan while unfocused. It doesn't happen automatically, but you can pretty easily code a way around it. (It definitely has absolutely nothing at all with Unity, where did you get that idea?)

I urge people to avoid comparisons with Kethane's gameplay. The underlying technology is very flexible. (To the poster who doubted my code can handle levels of detail per hex, that sort of thing is trivial. You can store any data at a hex coordinate.) There's no reason a mapping mod that uses some Kethane code has to work the exact same way.

The biggest limitation is actually PQS (the game's terrain system). It's computationally expensive to query for terrain details, so it's important to be careful with storing and caching that data. For reference, on my i7-3770 system, ten thousand altitude queries takes around 200 milliseconds, so you can only perform a few hundred queries per frame before you really kill performance. (Note: given the nature of the PQS system, it may be possible to perform these queries on another thread; I haven't investigated this at length.)

[Kimberly]

I think the whole idea of using a map made up of hexagons for the purpose of creating an actual height map is insane. It's not intuitive and at all and would feel terribly realistic. It's different for resources, because you're not trying to create an exact map of the resources--you just want to know where they are, and where they aren't. For ISA, mapping precisely and completely is an art; that's the fun in it. By all means, it would be nice if we could get the maps greater resolution, but we shouldn't rip out the very feature that makes Mapsat special.

If you can think of a way to keep satellites mapping while they're not focused on, I'm sure people would love to have it. But I don't think scaling back the very scanning feature makes sense. It's not like the maps aren't available elsewhere; what is there to the Mapsat mod, if not a cool way to make maps? I like that Mapsat has scan lines, can give you scanning artifacts in certain orbits and warps, and so on.