BSC - Two-stage Lander - We have a WINNER!

[Xeldrak]

Primary elections are done! Time for the grand finale! You can vote over

here!

Please drop a few line who you've voted for!

Final elections will run for another 48 hours.

You can download all six .craft files in a single .zip file over

here.

Also check the orignal posts for more pictures and stats on the finalists

Karmacoma - MunMin1

Mesklin - Space Lynx Lander

MiniMatt - Two-Stage Lander Take 2

Mulbin - Two Stage Lander

Slugy - Lander Replacement

Xeldrak - CR Columbidae Lander

---

Submissions are closed! Primary elections have started!

here!

Please drop a few line who you've voted for!

Primary Elections will run for 48 hours - the six best entries will enter the final elections!

Remember to come back in two days!

---

Several people asked for it: the third round of Better Stock Crafts! Last episode, Giggleplex777 won with his Meteosat - congratulations. But after spending so much time is space, it is time to get boots on the ground. This time we are doing the two-stage lander!

As you all should know by now, the stock crafts in KSP are horrible for the most part. So I challenge you to come up with a replacement craft.

There are a few things required for you submission:

1. You craft MUST NOT use any mods - 100% stock
   
2. You need to show us at least one Screenshot
   
3. You need to make you .craft file available
   

Otherwise your submission will not be accepted. Also, only one entry per participant is accepted.

And there are a few things you should consider

-Your craft should be easy to use, simple and safe - stock craft are mostly for new players, they should not be overwhelmed by 10 action groups that must be used at the right time.

-Your craft should be an example new players can emulate. It should demonstrate design techniques. What ARE action groups? What's aspargus? Can linear RCS boosters be of some use? These are questions new players could be able to answer by testing your craft.

-If you use Action Groups of have any special commentary to make, use that neat, new description field in the VAB.

It's a fine line between encouraging a new player with something new and overwhelming him - try to walk it.

How is this going to work?

This time we will try 4 Days to build, 4 days to Vote.

You will have 96 hours to build you craft, post your entry here with at least one screenshot and its .craft file. Also be so kind to drop us a few lines, about your craft. What are your thoughts on the design? Why is it a good stock craft?

Once submissions are closed, I will either create a new thread or create a external vote, we'll see. Anyways, I would like to encourage you to write a few lines why you voted you that craft, it keeps the thread fresh and we all have something to read while we wait for the votes.

What craft are we doing this time?

As you allready know from the caption, we are doing the two-stage lander.

The stock-craft is actually not too bad - it has a docking port, enough fuel and space for two kerbals. It does however lack an RCS system, wich is really essential íf you intend to use that docking port.

Now, what do I think a two-stage lander should be? I'd of course think Apollo LM at once. However, I also think we should be more general: a two stage lander should be able to land on most moons or dwarf-planets like Eelo. Having a decent and an ascent stage is obligatory Considering that it's the go-to choince for a Apollo-Style mission, it should also have a docking port to reconnect to a Command Module and should be nimble enough to make docking not needlessly hard. Parachutes are unnecessary - at least in my humble opinion.

This time I can give you only very few inspirational pictures, since there were not very many landers. However, I give you the Apollo LM, the LK Lander and the Altair spacecraft.

TLDR: Same rules a last time, we're doing the two stage lander

Contenders

AmpsterMan - Two Stage Lander Redux

antbin - A-11 Lander

Bobnova - Lander

Giggleplex777 - 2-Stage Lander mk2000

GregroxMun - mk2 two stage lander

Karmacoma - MunMin1

Mesklin - Space Lynx Lander

MiniMatt - Two-Stage Lander Take 2

Mulbin - Two Stage Lander

rdrdrdrd - L1 mem

Rhomphaia - Two-Stage Lander

searlefm - new 2 stage lander

SkyRender - Llama Lander

Slugy - Lander Replacement

sploden - Improved 2-stage 2-man lander

SRV Ron - Duna Lander

Syhrus - 2-Stage Lander

ThePsuedoMonkey - Pelican

tntristan12 - Thelander Mk IV-a

Xeldrak - CR Columbidae Lander

Edited September 8, 2013 by Xeldrak

[Giggleplex777]

I'm going to try to build the LK lander (AKA the flying peanut).

I'll keep it simple this time too.

[rdrdrdrd]

A simple two staged lander designed for landing on bodies without atmospheres. I have taken it to the mun, minmus, and gilly. It has a large fuel reserve and was loosly inspired by the look of the LEM of the Apollo missions.

Two action groups are set, 1 opens the panels and 2 deploys antenna and activates sensors. Perfect for that first mun landing or the Apollo recreation or roleplay.

More Pictures Here: http://imgur.com/a/nTVvL

http://pastebin.com/JWf3mcHr

Edited August 30, 2013 by rdrdrdrd
text vomit

[Horn Brain]

You do not need RCS on the lander if you have RCS on the vehicle it's docking with (and a kerbal/probe core to fly it). It's extra weight in KSP since we can use the reaction wheels to turn. Some people may still want RCS to kill the last bit of horizontal velocity when landing if they aren't confident with their hand or they're landing on higher gravity bodies.

[Bobnova]

Here's what I've been using. It's rather overengineered, but that's fine with me.

The transfer vehicle has a fair chunk of D-V, the lander can land on Mun with an inefficient path on about half it's tank, the ascent stage has enough to lift off Mun, get to Kerbin and land safely despite no parachutes (though doing so without breaking the fuel tank is a good trick, no legs on the ascent stage).

Not very pretty, though the flat bottom allows for a rather stiffer attachment to whatever gets it up there.

Craft Link.

[ThePsuedoMonkey]

Meet the Pelican:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6828vVl_-ZobV9GZzl5R2V6amc/edit?usp=sharing

It won't win any beauty contests, but it is capable of landing on anything up to and including Moho or Duna from a reasonable orbit and returning. Her part count and mass are a little higher than I typically use (58parts and 11.5T), but that little extra gives you a full RCS system, a trio of battery lights around the main docking port, computer backup, pressurized command modules, bidirectional searchlights, and of course two VTOL-capable rovers for the adventurous Kerbals who are nimble and foolhardy enough to pilot them. This could all be yours for less than 18000[currency]! The abort group is setup to quickly disconnect the rovers, disable their engines, and simultaneously activate the main engine.

[Xeldrak]

@Horn Brain Yes, you do not need an RCS - I've docked two vehicles with no RCS whatsoever. But (as I've explained in the OP) stock craft are made with new players in mind. To repeat myself: Your craft should be easy to use, simple and safe. Optimizing for wight by leaving away the RCS seems more like something for advanced players.

[Karmacoma]

I'll post an entry in later on this eve when i have had chance to pick one of my landers.

[MiniMatt]

Went for refinement of the current stock rather than a complete rewrite. As you note, it's not a bad craft by any rate but it does have a few problems, namely:

• No RCS system.
  
• Redundant SAS/reaction wheel used.
  
• Very high thrust to weight ratios, particularly during descent stage, makes for difficult control (Minmus TWR of 20 on descent).
  
• No landing light makes for tricky landing in low illumination.
  
• Mismatched ascent/descent delta-v - discounting the sepatrons, the original has ~1500 vacuum delta-v on the descent stage and ~800 on ascent.
  
• 800 ascent delta-v is a little stingy; doesn't leave much wiggle room for new players departing the Mun & rules out Duna, Vall, Moho, Eeloo trips.
  
• Those sepatrons are an *excellent* idea & go some way to raise ascent delta-v, but 4 is too many, way too much thrust at lift off makes for tricky control over low grav bodies.
  
• 4 RTGs is "cheating" the electricity resource problem. Electricity is now a resource to be managed, a skill that needs learning and accounted for in design. Solar cells & batteries teach the new player to manage this resource.
  
• At 12.5 tons, it's a bit porky.
  

So refined the original a bit; makes use of the new, excellent, Rockomax 48-7S engine for less savage TWR, adds a bit more ascent stage fuel to better balance ascent/descent delta-v, adding RCS, a landing light, and replacing the RTGs with a pair of solar arrays. The original 4 sepatrons have been reduced to two for less savage take-off. Oh, and at just a shade under 12 tons we've shaved half a ton off the original.

Aesthetic choices include retaining the "aerodynamic" nose cones and using shielded solar arrays rather than lighter unshielded arrays.

Two Stage Lander Take Two

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Vital (rough) statistics

mass: 12 tons (original 12.5)

parts: 49 (original 43)

vacuum descent stage delta-v: 1400dv (original 1500)

vacuum ascent stage delta-v: 1500dv (original 800) (both figures discount sepatrons)

Mun descent/ascent TWR: 4/5 (original 10/6)

Minmus descent/ascent TWR: 8/10 (original 20/12)

Moho descent/ascent TWR: 1.7/2 (original 4/2.5 - though original likely has insufficient dv to depart)

Why it'd make a good stock lander

Simple & sturdy design easily emulated by new players, no clipping or high part counts.

Addresses faults or out of date aspects of original stock.

Retains benefits of original stock such as wide landing profile, sturdy design, neat booster assisted ascent stage trick.

Sensible (if still a little chubby) mass of 12 tons, half a ton less than original, allows for relatively simple launch vehicle design.

Easily improved or modified by new players. Eg. lower mass & part count by removing nose cones, FL-T adaptors & replacing solar panels with unshielded variant. Easy to add extra fuel to stages with clear easy access to various components, eg. replace nosecones on descent stage with "donut" toroidal tanks.

(will get a .craft file uploaded someplace soon and edit this post for link)

EDIT: Link to .craft file: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BzCQMKilmnyaeURmeWxxSzVycXM/edit?usp=sharing

Only action group assigned is as described in the .craft file description, ie. custom 1 toggles the solar panels.

Edited September 2, 2013 by MiniMatt
added .craft file link

[Xeldrak]

I really like the look of that lander, MiniMatt - now just get the .craft file uploaded somewhere and you can be added.

[AmpsterMan]

Hello, would like to participate in this challenge since I missed the last one. Would adding a rover be too much for this build?

[Rhomphaia]

Never been too happy with my attempts at a 2-stage lander but I dug this one up from some old saves and updated it for .21

http://www./download/cws5crp9cris35u/Two-Stage_Lander.craft

Features;

RCS

power systems (solar power with small battery storage)

Landing lights

Docking port on bottom offers potential for rover mounting.

Descent stage remains intact on separation of ascent stage.

Ascent stage

Edit: Updated craft a bit. Mechjeb present to show stats, not included in craft file

Edited September 2, 2013 by Rhomphaia

[Slugy]

Here's my 8.8t 2 kerbal, 2 stage lander. It uses 4+1 48-7s engines for the descent and one for the ascent.

Craft file: http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/stock-lander-replacement/

It has toggleable engines on the descent stage giving Mun TWR of around 7 and 1.6, which makes landing much easier. On one engine it will hover for many minutes!

Has TWR of 1.15 on Kerbin, so practising control is easy.

Enough fuel to come to a stop over the mun at great height (tested at 27Km, more easily possible), and still land comfortably.

Features RCS blocks placed over linear ones, for great neatness!

dV 2243, 1363 descent + 860 ascent

Action Groups:

1- Toggle docking light

2- Toggle Solar Panels

3- Toggle landing lights

4 - Toggle outer 4 engines

5 - Toggle ladder

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Edit wtf is going on with linebreaks - it's losing them in Opera and Chrome.. Aha - wysiwyg editor is broken

Edited August 31, 2013 by Slugy

[searlefm]

hello everyone may i present the new 2 stage lander,

it has increased delta-V to the original, more RCS, and a ton of lights

you may grab your own copy from hear http://db.tt/4XzCktgK,

the lander boats 6 light on the lower stage and power for them,

2 lights on the upper stage,

loads of RCS allowing almost anyone to dock on

there randevu with the command module in space,

full scientific equipment,

landing stage Delta-V 1,565,

ascent stage Delta-V 1,157,

and totaling in at only 67 parts and 15,760Kg or 15.75 ton's(metric) and yes i used kerbal engineer to get tows figgers

so its not the lightest lander lightest but it will suffice for most people needs

Edited August 31, 2013 by searlefm

[gtrx]

I also want to participate, but I don't know whether there's a weight or part limit?

and 100% stock means no mechjeb ? cuz theres people here using kerbal engineer...so.....

[Epthelyn]

I also want to participate, but I don't know whether there's a weight or part limit?

and 100% stock means no mechjeb ? cuz theres people here using kerbal engineer...so.....

Kerbal Engineer is not a part which affects anything. It just tells you information about a rocket.

[Xeldrak]

The three new entries have been added.

@gtrx No Mods means no modded parts in the .craft file. These a crafts made for noobs - you should be able to load and use them with a fresh installed, vanilla KSP

@AmpsterMan Well, read the "thing to consider" section and consider it ^^

[MiniMatt]

Have edited in a .craft file download link for the page one entry.

Meanwhile, not sure if you're allowing multiple entries but I'd like to present a mini version.

I actually think this mini version is a technically better craft, but a worse stock option. It's pared down, single seat, weighs a mere 5.4 tons yet has more delta-v (~1600 descent and ~1600 ascent) and similar thrust to weight of the two man version. Technically better (hell, if you want 2 crew you can take two of these landers and still carry over a ton less mass) but not as good as a stock vehicle since it doesn't do as much *stuff* - ie. fixed rather than deployable solar panels, no fancy sepatron boosted ascent stage etc. Further, fixing to the delivery vehicle will require either mounting upside down via the docking port or right way up through a (wobbly, likely in need of struts) mini FL-T size engine shroud - complications which perhaps take it beyond a stock craft's remit.

Still, it has RCS, docking port, landing light, 1600 descent delta-v, another 1600 ascent delta-v (in vacuum), manageable TWR, and has a mass of just 5.4 tons.

Click for bigger version. Or just get stronger glasses. Your choice.

Vital (rough) statistics

mass: 5.4 tons (original 12.5)

parts: 36 (original 43)

vacuum descent stage delta-v: 1600dv (original 1500)

vacuum ascent stage delta-v: 1600dv (original 800) (discounts original's sepatrons)

Mun descent/ascent TWR: 4.5/4.5 (original 10/6)

Minmus descent/ascent TWR: 9.5/9.5 (original 20/12)

Moho descent/ascent TWR: 2/2 (original 4/2.5 - though original likely has insufficient dv to depart)

Link to .craft file: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BzCQMKilmnyaTW02S2F5d1Vta2c/edit?usp=sharing

Edited August 31, 2013 by MiniMatt
messed up picture link

[SkyRender]

Presenting... the Alpaca Lander!

It's fast (3.15 TWR on the Mun when landing, 1.63 when leaving), it's got loads of fuel (~1000m/s when landing, ~720m/s when leaving; also has quite a bit of dV from the RCS systems), and it's clever too: the base left behind is actually a probe which can continue to act as an automated science lab once the lander can has departed. All in all, a real jack-of-all-trades lander.

Check it out yourself here.

[Karmacoma]

ok so heres my 2 man lander entry...

MunMin 1

MunMin 1 was designed for Mun and Minmus landings but should be more than capable of crashing landing on other celestial bodys (not tested).

The craft comes with all the normal RCS, batteries, communication antenna and both retractable and fixed solar panels, also the addition of 4 parachutes to the second stage means the crew cabin is capable of landing back on Kerbin after your mission or possibly one way ticket landings onto other planets with atmospheres. 4 sepratrons fire with the launch of the 2nd stage at separation, giving you a boost back into orbit before firing the main engine, tho a powered take off is possible by turning off the lander engine and powering up before separation.

Craft Vitals

Weight - 21.69T

Part Count - 112

Stage 1 ÃŽâ€v (vacuum) 1931m/s

Stage 2 ÃŽâ€v (vacuum) 1901m/s

TWR for mun and minmus in imgur album.

3 action groups

1. Toggles the solar panels and comms equipment

2. Toggles the ladder

3. Toggles the 1st stage engine

Craft file >>>HERE<<< and rest of the pics ↓ there

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Edited August 31, 2013 by Karmacoma
fixing my mistakes :/

[SkyRender]

Here's the big brother to the Alpaca Lander, the Llama Lander.

Much like the Alpaca, the Llama features healthy dV (overall around 2500; you'd have to be really bad at landing to not have enough fuel to get back off the Mun with this one!), plenty of lights and science, and a base that stays behind as an automated science lab once the lander's back on its way to orbit.

See it for yourself. There's some small discrepancies between the above screenshot and the final version involving solar panel placement.

[tntristan12]

Here's my two stager. She is designed for landing on the Mun from an orbiting command module, and returning back to that module. I tried to adhere to the Apollo aesthetics as much as possible. The variant I currently use has Mechjeb but besides that is 100% stock.

[gtrx]

total weight : ~360 tons

lander weight (full fuel) : ~33 tons

lander deltaV : ~5,000 m/s

lander TWR at kerbin : 0.74

rocket deltaV : ~4,000 m/s

rocket TWR at kerbin : 2.34

link to craft file = http://pmc.do.am/ksp/challenge_stock.craft

It goes to the Mun and back. No docking port. No RCS. No action groups used. Everything is manual. Has parachutes but they're only useful for kerbin(can land at ~8m/s with parachutes only) and I think its called eve (the green one with heavy atmosphere and strong gravity). May just work if landed in a crater on duna too.

Lands on Mun with about 2,000 m/s or more deltaV to spare depending on how you play. So I suppose its enough to go to Duna. But I don't think it will be able to return. Unless a docking port is added and a refueler is sent to duna orbit.

Pictures:

(the one in landing pictures doesn't have science equipment and has mechjeb. the craft in link has no mechjeb (only 100% stock parts) and has the science equipment added.)

And sorry no pictures of takeoff from kerbin...

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Edited September 1, 2013 by gtrx

[Xeldrak]

@SkyRender, MiniMatt: Sorry, I didn't spell this our clearly earlier - but only a single entry is permitted. So please tell me wich one I should add.

The rest of you have been added. Seems like the rover is a rather popular choice

[SkyRender]

Go ahead and use the Llama Lander, then. Really, it's more fun to send 2 Kerbals down than 1 anyway.