Poll, Do/Should Kerbal Genders exist?

[GusTurbo]

I think this is the best concept for female kerbals that has been posted.

Also, for this year, NASA's new class of astronauts has 50/50 gender parity.

http://www.nasa.gov/astronauts/2013astroclass.html#.UjkaOcbOmSo

[sparty48]

Double Post

[Tw1]

Those are the complications I'm talking about. Why does the female Kerbal have more slender and gentle appearance? Even in the sexually dimorphic world on Earth, there's plenty of examples where female sex is more robust.

In the world of humans, that's not the case, but why the human bias? It's Kerbals, not humans.

It is true, sexual dimorphism varies. An alien species would not necessary follow human norms, or even have similar biology to earth life.

But my point is this:

Kerbals are not a real species.

They were created to be characters in a video game.

They have two eyes, a head, on a neck above a body which has two arms out the side, and two legs sticking out the bottom with which they walk.

They talk. They eat. They show emotion. The develop technology. Kerbals are based on humans.

It is a game designed to be used by humans. That is the reason for the human bias.

Giving non-human characters anthropomorphic features is one way to encourage humans connect to that character. If it had a race of realistic spiders instead of kerbals, the game would have quite the same appeal.

So if kerbals have genders, it would make sense for them to follow human norms. Anything else would just be distracting, and wouldn't add much to the game, IMHO.

Adding female kerbals to the game will add a sense of completeness. In the room I'm in, about half are boys, are half girls.

In my Mun base, I only see male-looking faces. Something is missing there.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Tw1

[sparty48]

Because the game, by default, is incredibly human-biased? We have a lush world with Earth's exact gravity, a large moon, and a solar system that closely mimics our own. We have a humanoid bipedal race with technology similar and/or identical to our own. And the game is made by humans (derp). Isn't it obvious?

EDIT: And someone has yet to answer this: If Kerbals are asexual, why do we refer to individual Kerbals as "He"?

Earth's Exact gravity?!?! Nah, the Saturn 5 could do interplanetary if put onto kerbin. Also, we have a purple planet and green planet. And they have monoliths and one even has a glowing green asteroid around it? Awesome.

Also, on your edit, say you see a fish in the ocean you have never seen. Do you say "look at it," "look at him," or "look at her?"

[99TheCreator]

Little does anyone know, kerbals are not asexual. 17 Kerbals are required to reproduce by normal means, sadly this way of reproduction has a 76.354% chance of producing 26 male kerbals. Which means female kerbals are very scarce in this society, while males are constantly being born. This is why kerbal rockets fail so much, to limit the male population. And female kerbals are treated in very high regard in Kerbal society, which is why none of them join the space program, because no one wants to lose a female. Also, males being part of the space program is a way to prove you show more dominance than the other males, much like other male creatures fight to the death for females, if male kerbals survive their spaceflights the females think of them as the better potential mate. Soon, we will be swarmed with kerbals on the same level as Jebediah Kerman, which would only be good. Therefore, I do not think female kerbals should be in the space program, it would be too detrimental to society.

[Sapphire]

Earth's Exact gravity?!?! Nah, the Saturn 5 could do interplanetary if put onto kerbin.

You'd best be pulling out your Gravioli Detector. It's 9.81m/s², just like real life.

Also, we have a purple planet and green planet. And they have monoliths and one even has a glowing green asteroid around it? Awesome.

Real life doesn't have easter eggs. And if memory serves, the magic boulder has been gone for the last few versions.

Purple and green are colors that are totally viable in nature. See Iodine for purple. See a the combo of methane/hydrogen/helium that makes Uranus (har) greenish-blue. And Eve is based on Venus in the way that it has a thick hot pressure-cooker atmosphere.

Also, on your edit, say you see a fish in the ocean you have never seen. Do you say "look at it," "look at him," or "look at her?"

It, of course. I've never seen anyone call a random fish "he" or "she". "Look at it! Look at the pretty fish!"

[zekes]

Guys and Gals. Why does gender matter? This is KSP, the game of discovery. We should (SHOULD) be much more worried about meaningful updates to the game. SQUAD has limited resources. Why squander them making another sex of Kerbal? Couldn't that time go to better things, like life support functions or subterranian mining?

Let's get our priorities straight.

[Sapphire]

Guys and Gals. Why does gender matter? This is KSP, the game of discovery. We should (SHOULD) be much more worried about meaningful updates to the game. SQUAD has limited resources. Why squander them making another sex of Kerbal? Couldn't that time go to better things, like life support functions or subterranian mining?

Let's get our priorities straight.

Why did KSC need to be redesigned? Why did Kerbin get a retexture? Why did Moho and Eve get new terrain maps? Why did many parts get retextured? Why were flags and chairs deemed more important than core features?

[Tw1]

Why squander them making another sex of Kerbal? Couldn't that time go to better things, like life support functions or subterranian mining?

Let's get our priorities straight.

This is true. It would end the discussion finally though.

I wonder how much they'd actually have to do to add female kerbals.

You'd need to decide what they will look like, though there are lots of good ideas here in the forums.

Just altering the existing model might muck up the animations, and probably there will be some changes needed to make kerbal names link to specific models.

I'm no expert on these things, but it doesn't sound like an overwhelming amount of time.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Tw1

[adinfinitum]

I'm not going to waste time arguing the topic scientifically when they are a species that live on a planet with no other animal-like lifeforms. I see the kerbals as a realization of what we as people have been unable to do. They embody our desire for space travel and exploration, at a time when budgets are being cut from government space programs, and private companies are starting to fill in some of the gaps. The kerbals have a single-minded desire to go to space, and even if they have screams of terror going up, once they are there they show their blissfully happy grins.

They represent what we aspire to be, a species who have put aside the differences and problems of the world and focused onwards and upwards to the future. Since they are, to me, a symbol of what we as humans love about space, I see no reason why we shouldn't include female kerbals in this.

[sparty48]

We are arguing about a game with LITTLE GREEN MEN, who launch rockets from the ONLY BUILDINGS on the entire planet. You are looking for reality?

[lajoswinkler]

lajoswinkler,

You are trying to hide a sexist position behind SiFi explanations, that is bad, and you should feel bad.

KSP is a game made by humans and marketed to humans. I look at kerbals and I see men. They look like men, and are named like men. No amount of SiFi BS will change this simple fact. Why create a wall of bad explanations to justify that instead of just wait for the devs to get to make female models?

What!? ROFL!

In fact, I'd be fine with them being totally genderless, sexless looking creatures. I don't really see them as males, though.

Is it special? Do we really know? For all we know the universe is teeming with X and Ys. Or maybe it's dead. Point is we don't know. I'd argue that it's naive to assume one thing without any evidence whatsoever and fight against other points of view. You argue that female Kerbals are unrealistic. I don't want female Kerbals because I think it'd be more realistic. I want female Kerbals because it would increase my enjoyment of the game, and because I think that Kerbals are based on a more-cartoony version of the human race, and cutting out half of that race is not what I'd like to see.

Agreed on Duna. It's still my least favorite planet to visit.

We know because it's a rarity on Earth and we know its mechanisms and lots of reasons why it evolved. XY system requires identical DNA system. Such similarities on a such developed scale are effectively impossible to happen again.

Again, I don't really see Kerbals as little tiny men. They really do appear like "its" to me, but maybe that's my bias.

It is true, sexual dimorphism varies. An alien species would not necessary follow human norms, or even have similar biology to earth life.

But my point is this:

Kerbals are not a real species.

They were created to be characters in a video game.

They have two eyes, a head, on a neck above a body which has two arms out the side, and two legs sticking out the bottom with which they walk.

They talk. They eat. They show emotion. The develop technology. Kerbals are based on humans.

It is a game designed to be used by humans. That is the reason for the human bias.

Giving non-human characters anthropomorphic features is one way to encourage humans connect to that character. If it had a race of realistic spiders instead of kerbals, the game would have quite the same appeal.

So if kerbals have genders, it would make sense for them to follow human norms. Anything else would just be distracting, and wouldn't add much too the game, IMHO.

Adding female kerbals to the game will add a sense of completeness. In the room I'm in, about half are boys, are half girls.

In my Mun base, I only see male-looking faces. Something is missing there.

I see the dillemma and the issue. KSP is based on early American space program. Most women played a crucial role in it, loosing sight over developing computer hardware. It's not a widely known thing, though.

[suzin.felipe]

Guys and Gals. Why does gender matter? This is KSP, the game of discovery. We should (SHOULD) be much more worried about meaningful updates to the game. SQUAD has limited resources. Why squander them making another sex of Kerbal? Couldn't that time go to better things, like life support functions or subterranian mining?

Let's get our priorities straight.

That is why I ask in my posts to these kind of tread to be locked. So comments like these don't make we all look bad.

[stupid_chris]

It, of course. I've never seen anyone call a random fish "he" or "she". "Look at it! Look at the pretty fish!"

I think grammar goes that a group of people or for an unknown subject, the masculine form goes. This is a lot less showing in English as nouns are genderless, but in most languages as French, Spanish, German, etc. nouns have genders. For example, a chair in French is feminine and a couch is masculine (they got married and had numerous pillows).

But in all seriousness, an unknown or mixed group is generally to be called by the masculine form until it is defined as masculine or feminine. And since Kerbals are sentient beings, calling them "it" just seems out of place. For myself, until something can be proven, Kerbals are just genderless. I've had some Jenna Kerman and others I don't remember, so really it's hard to tell. I'm not against defining genders to Kerbals in the future, but really this is low priority to me. Perhaps it could be done through a mod though?

Also people, I can feel the heat building in this thread, slowly but surely, so I'll just put my moderator lead-lined pants on for a second and just tell you all to keep your cool when replying, we don't want to be closing this thread

Edited September 18, 2013 by stupid_chris

[Sapphire]

Don't worry Chris! I have a clean track record with things like this: I tend to put on my super-serious pants when doing debates (both online and in real life). As whatshisname said, "I ain't even mad".

And learning French as a second language really hurt my brain with all the pronouns decided by the object.

Mais j'ai pas utiliser la lange pour quelques annees, et je ne sais pas comment faire les accents sur mon ordinateur... *shrugs*

We are arguing about a game with LITTLE GREEN MEN, who launch rockets from the ONLY BUILDINGS on the entire planet. You are looking for reality?

You're the one pulling the reality card in the first place. If you want to use reality in your arguments (bringing up Saturn V, showing planets that couldn't exist in reality, showing easter eggs that don't exist in reality), then I'll use reality to counterargue.

Now if you see my other post...

I don't want female Kerbals because I think it'd be more realistic. I want female Kerbals because it would increase my enjoyment of the game, and because I think that Kerbals are based on a more-cartoony version of the human race, and cutting out half of that race is not what I'd like to see.

Again, I don't really see Kerbals as little tiny men. They really do appear like "its" to me, but maybe that's my bias.

In all fairness, we're all biased with everything in the grand scheme of things.

When I see Kerbals, I see names like Bob and Bill and Scott. I see square jaws and the high hairlines, short-styled haircuts, and the chubby bodies of classic cartoonified guys.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Sapphire

[Hayoo]

My vote is for variety.

[Sapphire]

My vote is for variety.

-snip-

This is so awesome!

[suzin.felipe]

My vote is for variety.

snip

Bravo sir, you are a gentlemen and a scholar.

It's dangerous out there, take some of my rep with you.

[lajoswinkler]

I actually like it and hope the female-loking Kerbals would act the same. Goofy.

[telvin3d]

The current Kerbals are explicitly gendered. They have male names and are presented as male. Some of them are open nods to real historical male figures.

And anyone who doesn't realize that inclusion in video games is a huge topic at the moment, and has been for several years now, should feel deeply embarrassed by their lack of attention.

And the idea presented about Kerbals being aliens having one gender, that just happens (amazing coincidence!) to perfectly mirror the traits that our culture uses to designate males is pure sophistry. This is a game designed by human beings for human beings using human frames of reference. Gender norms are not accidental any more than using north South East and West for the compass rose is accidental. Funny, turns out the Kerbals use our compass too. What a coincidence!

At this point in our culture, and in video game culture specifically, the inclusion or not of female characters to go along with the male characters is a deliberate choice. Either way is a deliberate choice. The ships of 'We forgot' or 'It never occurred to us that is might matter' sailed a decade ago. And should the developers deliberately choose not to give half the human race characters to identify with it would be a massive slap in the face on at least two levels.

On the first level is the absurd ease involved in adding the feature. The grand total investment needed would be a few dozen names added to the random name generator, and perhaps a couple close cropped hair styles that would not interfere with the current EVA suit models. They wouldn't even need to make sure the name generator and hair have any relationship to each other. In my opinion there would be something particularly Kerbalish about them being mixed up every which way.

By in my opinion the far bigger insult would be to the ideals that this game celebrates. The history of space flight has always involved pushing boundaries and celebrating the best and brightest. This has included people like Sally Ride and Christa McAuliffe and Valentina Tereshkova and Roberta Bondar, as well as people orbiting this planet this very moment who also happen to be female. For KSP to have no place for them and those of both genders who idolize them would be deeply distressing.

[leax256]

I quote myself on the topic, namely the dev's Offical statment

in my opinion I think that was just something to help lessen the arguments and female kerbals are an unanounced planned feature. Though I wouldn't expect to see them added anytime till the game is out of alpha.

look at the arguments started about warpdrives when it was mentioned as an idea.

[_Aramchek_]

Guys and Gals. Why does gender matter? This is KSP, the game of discovery. We should (SHOULD) be much more worried about meaningful updates to the game. SQUAD has limited resources. Why squander them making another sex of Kerbal? Couldn't that time go to better things, like life support functions or subterranian mining?

Let's get our priorities straight.

This, this, so much this!

I want REAL content, not "boy and girl kerbals" in a game that refreshingly AVOIDED gender/sex and the inevitable and irrelevant to the game bs that ends up going along with it. Always.

[lajoswinkler]

This, this, so much this!

I want REAL content, not "boy and girl kerbals" in a game that refreshingly AVOIDED gender/sex and the inevitable and irrelevant to the game bs that ends up going along with it. Always.

I would agree if it would be true but... they didn't avoid it.

Kerbals are not gender-neutral looking creatures. They aren't really masculine, but have you looked at Squad's youtube trailers? There are Kerbal analogues of real life famous males. Von Braun, Cernan, even Ferdowsi.

I also want real content, all that is a valid argument, but you're not completely correct.

[Sapphire]

This, this, so much this!

I want REAL content, not "boy and girl kerbals" in a game that refreshingly AVOIDED gender/sex and the inevitable and irrelevant to the game bs that ends up going along with it. Always.

Care to respond to this instead of ignoring it?

Why did KSC need to be redesigned? Why did Kerbin get a retexture? Why did Moho and Eve get new terrain maps? Why did many parts get retextured? Why were flags and chairs deemed more important than core features?

KSP has been filled with strange design choices that, for mysterious reasons, were placed ahead of core features and content. I'm not criticizing SQUAD; I'm glad that they did it, because gameplay vs graphics or not, you can't just wave away aesthetics.

[_Aramchek_]

Care to respond to this instead of ignoring it?

KSP has been filled with strange design choices that, for mysterious reasons, were placed ahead of core features and content. I'm not criticizing SQUAD; I'm glad that they did it, because gameplay vs graphics or not, you can't just wave away aesthetics.

I think you're reaching, many of those things were improved either due to the game engine switch to unity4(?), even so, those are elements that normally get attention in a a game, the new buildings have a functional aspect depicting the training center etc., the new textures use less polygons/texture memory and thus less resources which has a direct effect on teh speed in which the game runs.

The terrain was redone to look more realistic, and the very second you find a real life kerbal, and determine it's gender you could claim "realism" by providing gender to the in game creatures, or if somehow making female kerbals would speed up the fps, etc...but none of those reasons genuinely apply to the gender of the little green creatures you're exploding or hurling in to space.