[WIP] Nert's Dev Thread - Current: various updates

[SmashBrown]

So how will unity 5 affect the mods? Looking at you Nertea, will this require the mods to do alot of work recoding certain aspects?

[GabrielG.A.B.Fonseca]

When can we expect this patch...? *Insert Cheeky Face Here*

Also, I'm not sure you've seen it, but I reported a little compatibility issue a few days back regarding the NF Spacecraft and TAC Life Support and, apparently, station expansion. While the pods and crew cabins have the TAC module on them, they have none of the life support resources. There's no in-built food, oxygen or water, and no space for carbon dioxide, waste and waste water. Just a heads up

[cipherpunks]

Streetwind, will try w/o DR.

Meanwhile, Nertea, thanks, for fixing sideways torque of VASIMRs; still LV-T18 cluster has 0.001kNm but small LV-T95 has whopping 0.058kNm of sideways torque, while 8-way cluster of them has zero. Fix them too when You'll have the chance, please. LV-T95 is moderately useful.

[Mekan1k]

Speaking of glowing slag, the small radiators have a nasty habit of overheating and exploding in direct sunlight.

[cipherpunks]

There was no sunlight under interstage fairing.

W/o DR everything's fine.

Will re-generate & post ModuleManacer.cache and logs with DR if needed.

[Fraz86]

What is the logic in this, and what exactly might be the culprit of such strange behavior?

Due to radiators' heat transfer behavior, it might be possible to overheat a radiator even though its parent part isn't hot. In this case, the temperature of the parent part is less important than its total heat content. That fuel tank has enormous thermal mass, which means lots of heat to be sucked out by the radiators even at normal temperatures. Ordinarily, the parent part's temperature would eventually drop to the point that heat transfer slows down, but perhaps in your case the thermal mass was so high that the radiator exploded before you reached that equilibrium. The situation was also obviously exacerbated by the heat pipes from the engine, as well as the low emissivity of the radiator while closed. I'm not sure if these factors fully account for the explosion, but it seems plausible. If so, turning off the radiator's heat transfer while closed should prevent similar mishaps in the future.

Edit: Nevermind, I just saw your most recent post.

[ZobrAA]

@Nertea, I absolutely love your mods but now one question bothers me. So, is there any chance to see KAS version of heat pipe, like regular KAS fuel pipe? Because in case of massive interplanetary ship with a lot of radiators there no way to launch it in one piece... so we need to use modular design, but heat pipes won't work that way...

Here my project, and I need somehow construct radiator girders in orbit (no problem with KIS) and conduct heat there ...but how? At the moment main radiators are purely cosmetic without heat pipes...

Edited May 22, 2015 by ZobrAA

[JeffreyCor]

Regarding the NTR patches, are there plans to add the ones from Nova Punch so they will be effected as well?

[Streetwind]

It's got nothing to do with Deadly re-entry.

In a fresh install with only KSPI-E, NF and Hyperedit, I placed a single Tau radiator (the fin-like one) on a spaceship with pod, inactive MX-1, undeployed solar panel and a battery. It rapidly heated up to 1300K despite there being no current flow and no heating sources. Rest of the ship was a cool 300K.

I believe it's something related to the 'infinite heat transfer' problem mentioned earlier in this thread.

The infinite heat transfer thing only happens when a part hits the minimum allowed temperature of 4 Kelvin. This should not happen anymore because Nertea's plugin won't transfer any heat if the parent part is below 273 K.

If the Tau radiator explodes, then either something is bugged, or it simply doesn't have enough surface area to handle the doubled heat load. Once the weekend arrives and I actually have time again, I'll test some scenarios to narrow it down. Doesn't look like 1.03 is releasing this week anyway.

Speaking of glowing slag, the small radiators have a nasty habit of overheating and exploding in direct sunlight.

This also should not happen, unless something is bugged. Could you offer exact reproduction steps to reliably force this situation to occur?

Due to radiators' heat transfer behavior, it might be possible to overheat a radiator even though its parent part isn't hot. In this case, the temperature of the parent part is less important than its total heat content. That fuel tank has enormous thermal mass, which means lots of heat to be sucked out by the radiators even at normal temperatures. Ordinarily, the parent part's temperature would eventually drop to the point that heat transfer slows down, but perhaps in your case the thermal mass was so high that the radiator exploded before you reached that equilibrium. The situation was also obviously exacerbated by the heat pipes from the engine, as well as the low emissivity of the radiator while closed. I'm not sure if these factors fully account for the explosion, but it seems plausible. If so, turning off the radiator's heat transfer while closed should prevent similar mishaps in the future.

When the radiator is closed, the heat transfer amount is also vastly reduced. So the radiators shouldn't overheat themselves regardless of their state. They never did in prior testing, anyway, and the closed transfer amount actually hasn't been touched at all when Nertea doubled the extended transfer amount, so I see no reason why it suddenly should be different... unless, as mentioned, there's a bug. Will test.

So how will unity 5 affect the mods? Looking at you Nertea, will this require the mods to do alot of work recoding certain aspects?

Unity 5 will break all the mods, and break them hard. It'll be a much more time-consuming update than 1.0 ever was.

I know people herald it as the best thing to happen to KSP, ever, but there will be a sobering surprise waiting for people that expect to be starting new modded saves right after.

Also, I'm not sure you've seen it, but I reported a little compatibility issue a few days back regarding the NF Spacecraft and TAC Life Support and, apparently, station expansion. While the pods and crew cabins have the TAC module on them, they have none of the life support resources. There's no in-built food, oxygen or water, and no space for carbon dioxide, waste and waste water. Just a heads up

TAC LS itself is responsible for adding these. It should autodetect parts with crew capacity and command capability and modify them in the necessary way. Perhaps it considers the pod to be a probe core, though (since it has one built-in) and therefore doesn't treat it as a normal command pod? I'm not sure. But it's a bug for the TAC LS thread, in any case.

@Nertea, I absolutely love your mods but now one question bothers me. So, is there any chance to see KAS version of heat pipe, like regular KAS fuel pipe? Because in case of massive interplanetary ship with a lot of radiators there no way to launch it in one piece... so we need to use modular design, but heat pipes won't work that way...

Isn't that something KAS would need to add, the same way KAS adds the modified fuel line?

Although, if it can be done with a ModuleManager config: here's an idea. Write that config and post it here, and we can include it.

Regarding the NTR patches, are there plans to add the ones from Nova Punch so they will be effected as well?

They were supported in the past and I would be surprised if they weren't supported again in the near future... </rimshot>

[Psycho_zs]

I've got message from Starwaster, Latest version of Deadly reentry fixed skinHeatConductivity. In theory, the following code should make radiators compatible with DRE:

@PART
[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleGenericRadiator]]:FINAL {
    @MODULE[ModuleAeroReentry]{
        @skinHeatConductivity = 1
        // this line probably can be ommited:
        @skinThicknessFactor = 1
        @skinMaxTemp = 1900
    }
}

Can't test now, lots of things happening IRL.

[Streetwind]

Well, that's good news, in any case.

[Gkirmathal]

@Nertea and Streetwind, many thanks for the explanations guys! Now you you mentioned it, of course! Parts fell into place. It's been a while and my knowledge has faded after 10+ years with little practical usage

I'm going to dig up some of my old books, this has gotten me interested again.

On topic. Updated to the newest X version of NFE and NFP. Not using DRE or FAR, I had a quick test I had on the launchpad and reproduced the odd radiator heating.

Vessel is completely inactive and up to time warp 5x temp increases temp while TW 6x makes it reset to in the 300'th.

Screenshot of the test:

I do have KSP heavily modded, I will test the same on a clean game with only NFP and NFE latest experimental, it I can replicate it there.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Gkirmathal

[Streetwind]

Still not convinced that that's out of the ordinary. You have a huge amount of thermal mass in those tanks, meaning it takes the radiators a long time to cool them down to minimum temperature (273 K), during which they will operate at full throughput (and thus get red-hot). Also, air temperature on the launchpad is 311 K, and it will keep seeping warmth into all of those tanks with their giant surfaces all the time.

As long as the radiators do not explode, I see nothing wrong with your observations.

If you want to check for heat that comes out of nowhere, take a small part with low thermal mass, for example a probe core. Stuff it full of radiators, then put that on the launchpad. No other parts, just the probe core and radiators. Once the probe core hits 273 K, which should happen almost instantly, the radiators should stop pulling more heat from it. If they do continue to gain temperature at a brisk pace, something's not right.

Temperature resetting once you go to x1000 or faster is normal stock behavior.

[MatterBeam]

Still not convinced that that's out of the ordinary. You have a huge amount of thermal mass in those tanks, meaning it takes the radiators a long time to cool them down to minimum temperature (273 K), during which they will operate at full throughput (and thus get red-hot). Also, air temperature on the launchpad is 311 K, and it will keep seeping warmth into all of those tanks with their giant surfaces all the time.

As long as the radiators do not explode, I see nothing wrong with your observations.

If you want to check for heat that comes out of nowhere, take a small part with low thermal mass, for example a probe core. Stuff it full of radiators, then put that on the launchpad. No other parts, just the probe core and radiators. Once the probe core hits 273 K, which should happen almost instantly, the radiators should stop pulling more heat from it. If they do continue to gain temperature at a brisk pace, something's not right.

Temperature resetting once you go to x1000 or faster is normal stock behavior.

Heat isn't simulated above x100.

[Streetwind]

Yes, that's precisely what I wrote?

[MatterBeam]

Yes, that's precisely what I wrote?

You wrote x1000.... Oh.

Oh. There's nothing in between x100 and 1000.

[Sufficient Anonymity]

So there's a distinct lack of bug reports for the last dev versions, which I LOVE. Awesome.

Terrifyingly close to finals. I'll find something to break come 29th (unless they decide to viva me, in which case breaking of things may be delayed a couple of weeks)

[ExavierMacbeth]

Hey Nertea

Found a bug for you in Propulsion. Seems anytime I place a Vasmir in the VAB it breaks the right click menus and spams the following in the output log.

vasimr-125 added to ship - part count: 2

(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 56)

FormatException: The specified format 'S4' is invalid
  at System.NumberFormatter.NumberToString (System.String format, System.Globalization.NumberFormatInfo nfi) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at System.NumberFormatter.NumberToString (System.String format, Single value, IFormatProvider fp) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at System.Single.ToString (System.String format, IFormatProvider provider) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at System.Single.ToString (System.String format) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at BaseField.GetStringValue (System.Object host, Boolean gui) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at BaseField.GuiString (System.Object host) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at UIPartActionLabel.UpdateItem () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at UIPartActionWindow.CreatePartList (Boolean clearFirst) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at UIPartActionWindow.Setup (.Part part, DisplayType type, UI_Scene scene) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at UIPartActionController.CreatePartUI (.Part part, DisplayType type, UI_Scene scene) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at UIPartActionController.SelectPart (.Part part, Boolean allowMultiple) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at UIPartActionController.HandleMouseClick (UnityEngine.Camera cam, Boolean allowMultiple) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at UIPartActionController+.MoveNext () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

(Filename:  Line: -1)

[DerekL1963]

Still not convinced that that's out of the ordinary. You have a huge amount of thermal mass in those tanks, meaning it takes the radiators a long time to cool them down to minimum temperature (273 K), during which they will operate at full throughput (and thus get red-hot). Also, air temperature on the launchpad is 311 K, and it will keep seeping warmth into all of those tanks with their giant surfaces all the time.

As long as the radiators do not explode, I see nothing wrong with your observations.

If you want to check for heat that comes out of nowhere, take a small part with low thermal mass, for example a probe core. Stuff it full of radiators, then put that on the launchpad. No other parts, just the probe core and radiators. Once the probe core hits 273 K, which should happen almost instantly, the radiators should stop pulling more heat from it. If they do continue to gain temperature at a brisk pace, something's not right.

That's exactly what I'm see when I test - the expected behavior. Big tanks, small amount of radiator area - red hot radiators. Tiny probe core, large amount of radiators - stone cold radiators. (Actually 329 odd K.)

[cipherpunks]

Just found out that InterstellarFuelSwitch kills ElectricCharge from service module-like parts. I mean MM sees it, and it is written on icon tooltip in VAB, but when I place the part, it doesn't have ElectricCharge anymore :-(

Can it be fixed somehow? Who should I poke? Who maintains IFS and where? (tried to googling forum - results are unclear to me)

[FreeThinker]

Just found out that InterstellarFuelSwitch kills ElectricCharge from service module-like parts. I mean MM sees it, and it is written on icon tooltip in VAB, but when I place the part, it doesn't have ElectricCharge anymore :-(

Can it be fixed somehow? Who should I poke? Who maintains IFS and where? (tried to googling forum - results are unclear to me)

Please post your questions or comment related to Interstellar Fuel Switch in the release thread

[Streetwind]

Okay. I went over all of the reports of strange behavior that have been posted since the last test version release that have not yet been explained, and tried to reproduce them. Here's what I found:

In a fresh install with only KSPI-E, NF and Hyperedit, I placed a single Tau radiator (the fin-like one) on a spaceship with pod, inactive MX-1, undeployed solar panel and a battery. It rapidly heated up to 1300K despite there being no current flow and no heating sources. Rest of the ship was a cool 300K.

Confirmed: Tau radiator once again does not dissipate any heat. This was fixed in the previous version but seems to have returned.

Speaking of glowing slag, the small radiators have a nasty habit of overheating and exploding in direct sunlight.

Unable to reproduce - unless he meant the Tau radiator.

Hey Nertea

Found a bug for you in Propulsion. Seems anytime I place a Vasmir in the VAB it breaks the right click menus and spams the following in the output log.

Unable to reproduce.

However: 2.5m VASIMR engine icon in the VAB is tiny. This was not the case in previous NFP test versions, IIRC.

EDIT: Just checked with the previous test release, the VASIMR icon was indeed normal there.

Edited May 23, 2015 by Streetwind

[Mekan1k]

Okay. I went over all of the reports of strange behavior that have been posted since the last test version release that have not yet been explained, and tried to reproduce them. Here's what I found:

Confirmed: Tau radiator once again does not dissipate any heat. This was fixed in the previous version but seems to have returned.

Unable to reproduce - unless he meant the Tau radiator.

Unable to reproduce.

However: 2.5m VASIMR engine icon in the VAB is tiny. This was not the case in previous NFP test versions, IIRC.

I did indeed mean the Tau radiator. It looks cool, but doesn't function like, well, a radiator.

[Nertea]

Anyone who has trouble with the tau radiator should try deleting their part database.cfg to allow the game to regenerate the drag cube, which was the ptoblem before.

[Captain Sierra]

Nertea, bug report with the NFP RC1. The 2.5m VASIMR engine appears very small in the editor part menu. The icon is tiny. Aside from that, it appears to be just fine.