Tripropelant Fuel Idea.

[magnemoe]

Well actually John D. Clark said something about Fluorine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_trifluoride#Rocket_propellant

I kind of liked this: Chlorine trifluoride is hypergolic (start to burn automaticly) with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water  with which it reacts explosively

As rocket fuel you must use something who explode in contact with air.

[lajoswinkler]

Well actually John D. Clark said something about Fluorine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_trifluoride#Rocket_propellant

I was puzzled by rhoark's post because he didn't include a quote, and the thread is already on page 3. I see fluorine was mentioned at page 1.

Chlorine trifluoride is not fluorine, but a compound of fluorine, so they behave differently.

I remember reading the quote about the running shoes and, having experience with less reactive compounds, I wholeheartedly agree on that. Such things are not suitable for manned flights. I'd use them in unmanned missions, for last stages, outside of the atmosphere... But better not at all.

[ZedNova]

What about monohydrazine? ( 1+ waffle taco If you know who used that )

[architeuthis]

The Soviets developed a series of Ammonia/Fluorine engines for proton upper stages, but they never flew.

Charles Stross wrote a hilarious essay about fuel/oxidizer combinations that violate the general "no death" rule.

[drakesdoom]

Well if that's not strong enough for you I have a little extra spicy concoction called Devil's venom

Nitric acid mixed with UDMH. Everything you want in rocket fuel in one small package. Won't boil off even during engine burns, hypergolic, high storage density, better thrust and isp then kerosene.

Warning both oxidizer and fuel are highly flammable, acidic, toxic, release poison gas, carcinogens, and hypergolic with a wide variety of materials.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_venom

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nedelin_catastrophe#23_October

[rhoark]

Lowering your hand in a container of fluorine will feel warm and tingly, but it will not catch on fire.

You must be thinking of some type of fluoride compound. F2 at room temperature is a gas that's toxic at 100 ppm. I highly doubt anyone who ever unsealed a container without protective measures had the fortitude to go on to put their hand inside.

Here's a list of things that react violently (including teflon)

http://webwiser.nlm.nih.gov/getSubstanceData.do;jsessionid=AC447207B7DA645704401A5030842534?substanceID=335&displaySubstanceName=Fluorine&UNNAID=&STCCID=49%20040%2030&selectedDataMenuItemID=7

It's relevant because the only true tripropellant engine ever fired (ie, 3 fuels at the same time rather than a dual-mode engine) used fluoride, hydrogen, and lithium.

[Captain Sierra]

Wasn't that used on several Soviet ICBMs?

[drakesdoom]

Wasn't that used on several Soviet ICBMs?

Yes Devil's brew was the fuel of the first series of Russian ICBMs. Managed to incinerate/burn/poison almost the entire development team at once before ever even flying. Video on live link, if you want to see that you can find it yourself.

[Titan Space Agency]

Thanks for the replies. They where awesome and i hope to see this descution live on, you guys almost scared me away from the idea of burning Hydrogen, Potasium, and Oxygen as rocket fuels. ALMOST. I still think it might be a good idea.

[lajoswinkler]

You must be thinking of some type of fluoride compound. F2 at room temperature is a gas that's toxic at 100 ppm. I highly doubt anyone who ever unsealed a container without protective measures had the fortitude to go on to put their hand inside.

Here's a list of things that react violently (including teflon)

http://webwiser.nlm.nih.gov/getSubstanceData.do;jsessionid=AC447207B7DA645704401A5030842534?substanceID=335&displaySubstanceName=Fluorine&UNNAID=&STCCID=49%20040%2030&selectedDataMenuItemID=7

It's relevant because the only true tripropellant engine ever fired (ie, 3 fuels at the same time rather than a dual-mode engine) used fluoride, hydrogen, and lithium.

No, I'm talking about elemental, gaseous fluorine. It is not that poisonous as warfare agents, despite what the interwebs have cooked about it in the last decade. Misinformation breeds easily.

You can actually lower your hand into the gas and it will feel warm because it's oxidizing your skin. It's like chlorine, but more reactive and more poisonous. If I were to try such experiment, I'd have calcium gluconate cream ready just to be sure it's all neutralized, and I wouldn't hold my hand inside for more than a second or two.

If you want to ignite human skin, you need to blow fluorine into it, just like you can see in various videos on youtube with coal and brick.

Very low concentrations of fluorine can be harmless to experience as smell, if the exposure is short. There aren't enough F2 molecules in a weak whiff of the gas to cause problems. It's not like sarin which will, in the same circumstances, induce salivation and tremors.

Teflon will react with flow of fluorine and oxygen mixture under pressure. It means you have to use an autoclave and actually blow such pressurized mixture into the material to get ignition.

Teflon lowered into a beaker full of pure fluorine will experience nothing. No reaction. The same thing goes for many metals. What happens to iron in fluorine is pretty much the same what happens to aluminium in our atmosphere. If it weren't for that passivization effect, aluminium could catch on fire because it's extremely reactive.

There are lots of factors that decide will something catch on fire or not, and catching on fire is not the same thing as "reacting". Putting a lump of coal in fluorine will not cause ignition. Sprinkling coal dust will. Blowing the gas into the lump will.