Career Mode and Beta Implications

[DoctorCruz]

So I was thinking. Now that KSP has a career mode and that will be the focus of Squad in the following updates, how soon are we to a beta? I mean, what else is there to alpha test? Game engine? Done. Parts? I can't see them adding many more. Planets and celestial bodies? They might add asteroids or comets but that what else is there?

Anyway feel free to weigh in with your opinion.

[Umlüx]

i'd say they should finish the engine and physics now, add realistic drag and aerodynamic models and so on..

then they can go beta and add content like parts, planets and career missions.

[DoctorCruz]

i'd say they should finish the engine and physics now, add realistic drag and aerodynamic models and so on..

then they can go beta and add content like parts, planets and career missions.

Drag, good one, that is one that I forgot that would keep them in Alpha.

[1greywind]

Better aerodynamic, new celestial bodies (planets, asteroids), and other things from planned features.

[DoctorCruz]

But is that going to keep them in alpha until they do those things? I would say you could do the new planets in beta or maybe some type of DLC. I see the point about aerodynamics though.

[DoctorCruz]

Space center facilities can be destroyed by crash-landing onto them, and fixing them will cost money[citation needed]

-http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Planned_features

I do like that idea, especially with all the spaceplanes!

[Epthelyn]

But is that going to keep them in alpha until they do those things? I would say you could do the new planets in beta or maybe some type of DLC. I see the point about aerodynamics though.

DLC would come after the game is completed would it not? Any development team that tries to release DLC when the base game isn't finished is asking for trouble.

If you already paid for and play KSP you don't need to worry or care about whether the game in alpha or beta. I mean, you could think "Oh no, this game isn't finished therefore it is terrible" as I know some people do, but you know otherwise. When the game is finished, it's finished and as long as Squad do a good job on it in a reasonable amount of time it doesn't actually matter if they follow the alpha-beta-gamma thing as defined.

[manskal]

I'll miss the constant updates when KSP gets fully released.... But it might still be a long way to go.

Anyhow, Resources. And the real Career mode. And aerodynamics. Things that Squad should implement before moving to beta.

[Monger]

Well, I think this is pretty much well defined in the Wiki. A Beta is defined as "Feature complete", so I assume we will enter Beta test as soon as the rest of the list is there - at least basically.

So, there are quite a few things that are still planned, like tweakables, cities, resources and weather. And probably other features will turn up that we are not aware of currently, but are more important (like the new save system, which lays the foundation for checkpoints).

So, still a lot to do. Which isn't bad, other games like Minecraft also took a lot of time in closed Alpha and Beta. In the end, from Squads perspective the final release isn't that important - at least as long as they don't plan other projects besides KSP.

[SteevyT]

...... - at least as long as they don't plan other projects besides KSP.

If they find they have the resources to handle another project without compromising either, I wouldn't mind seeing Squad start another source of income. It could mean more resources if they find another project that is worthwhile, fun, and popular like KSP is.

[DoctorCruz]

I'll miss the constant updates when KSP gets fully released.... But it might still be a long way to go.

Anyhow, Resources. And the real Career mode. And aerodynamics. Things that Squad should implement before moving to beta.

What is your idea of real career mode?

[DoctorCruz]

DLC would come after the game is completed would it not? Any development team that tries to release DLC when the base game isn't finished is asking for trouble.

If you already paid for and play KSP you don't need to worry or care about whether the game in alpha or beta. I mean, you could think "Oh no, this game isn't finished therefore it is terrible" as I know some people do, but you know otherwise. When the game is finished, it's finished and as long as Squad do a good job on it in a reasonable amount of time it doesn't actually matter if they follow the alpha-beta-gamma thing as defined.

Exactly what I meant. I can see them adding other planets and things after the game is actually released.

[Monger]

If they find they have the resources to handle another project without compromising either, I wouldn't mind seeing Squad start another source of income. It could mean more resources if they find another project that is worthwhile, fun, and popular like KSP is.

When I say "other projects", this might also include addons. And let's face it: no matter how good KSP is selling currently, at some point the sells will dry up, and they need to think about how to progress as a company. At some point in the distant future, other projects will become more important than KSP.

[Godot]

We are (/will be in short time) at version 0.22 ...

sounds like a long distance till 1.0 to me ..

I wouldn´t expect Beta before a version number like 0.50

[sjwt]

We are (/will be in short time) at version 0.22 ...

sounds like a long distance till 1.0 to me ..

I wouldn´t expect Beta before a version number like 0.50

Not quite how versions numbers works.

[Technical Ben]

Yep, drag and aerodynamics are needed. I'd say once those and the especially needed "re-entry damage/heat" are added, it's "feature complete" to me. Everything else would be polish.

[SteevyT]

When I say "other projects", this might also include addons. And let's face it: no matter how good KSP is selling currently, at some point the sells will dry up, and they need to think about how to progress as a company. At some point in the distant future, other projects will become more important than KSP.

I think we are thinking in two different time frames. I thought you were talking short term.

[DoctorCruz]

Yep, drag and aerodynamics are needed. I'd say once those and the especially needed "re-entry damage/heat" are added, it's "feature complete" to me. Everything else would be polish.

I agree with that view

[Godot]

Not quite how versions numbers works.

Sure, version numbering usually is arbirary and depends on the developr (also meaning that squad could decide to jump from 0.22 to 0.50 if they wished) ...

but considering the difference between the current state and the planned features (according to KSPWiki) and how many features usually are implemented by squad with each step upwards in version numbering, I wouldn´t expect the game to be in a so feature complete stage, that it would warrant a renaming from "Alpha" to "Beta"-Stage before roughly 0.50

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

Sure, version numbering usually is arbirary and depends on the developr (also meaning that squad could decide to jump from 0.22 to 0.50 if they wished) ...

but considering the difference between the current state and the planned features (according to KSPWiki) and how many features usually are implemented by squad with each step upwards in version numbering, I wouldn´t expect the game to be in a so feature complete stage, that it would warrant a renaming from "Alpha" to "Beta"-Stage before roughly 0.50

No? They can't jump to that, unless if they have 28 more versions. They can jump from 0.22 - 1.0 if they wanted. Why? Because 1.0 is the full version, when they think the game is done

[Godot]

No? They can't jump to that, unless if they have 28 more versions. They can jump from 0.22 - 1.0 if they wanted. Why? Because 1.0 is the full version, when they think the game is done

I disagree ...

they may not jump till version 1.0 until they believe that the game is ready (or at least feature complete) ...

but every step before that is totally arbitrary ...

it is not unusual for developers to use different step sizes between their updates for example to account for the number or complexity of the features they implemented

(and so, for example, have one update with a change of 0.01 version numbers, but another one with a step size of 0.05).

To cite an example in games development, I just might cite the version numbring of Dwarf Fortress which went from 0.23 to 0.28 and then to 0.31.

It is left to each developers own devices, how he numbers his sub-versions

[Mystic]

I've never heard of a developer using version numbers as some sort of progress percentage, where a version 0.50 meant they thought they were halfway to 1.0. That would be really inflexible and hard to manage ... the need for new versions is seldom if ever that predicable. I'm not saying no one has ever done that, but any developer that does would be the very rare exception, and I feel very safe in saying Squad is not doing that here.

As far as version "jumps", i.e. going directly from 0.23 to 0.28, that is far more likely to have been because the intervening versions were built internally but never released for one reason or another.

[Pulstar]

Yep, drag and aerodynamics are needed. I'd say once those and the especially needed "re-entry damage/heat" are added, it's "feature complete" to me. Everything else would be polish.

Pretty much, that's the only thing lacking in the flight part of the game, well maybe some weather effects as well but for me that would just be a cherry on top. Not really feature complete though since flight is just one part of the game. I'm personally dreaming of an "atmospheric update" with a new drag model, functional heatshields and payload fairings to go along with re-entry heat damage, redone spaceplane parts (C7 and Bac9 joint effort, just imagine it!), different balloons and electric propellers/rotors. With the new science mechanics aerial probes would be really good on Duna, Eve and any future planet/moon with a non-oxygen atmosphere.

Still the devs will do that when (or if in the case of some features) they think it should be done. Career mode is definitely underdeveloped even with all the good stuff 0.22 is supposed to bring very soon.

[Godot]

...

As far as version "jumps", i.e. going directly from 0.23 to 0.28, that is far more likely to have been because the intervening versions were built internally but never released for one reason or another.

Of course ... I only referred to released updates ... not to the progression of the internal versioning of developmental builds (which won´t be visible to people outside of the dev team)

[DoctorCruz]

I've never heard of a developer using version numbers as some sort of progress percentage, where a version 0.50 meant they thought they were halfway to 1.0. That would be really inflexible and hard to manage ... the need for new versions is seldom if ever that predicable. I'm not saying no one has ever done that, but any developer that does would be the very rare exception, and I feel very safe in saying Squad is not doing that here.

As far as version "jumps", i.e. going directly from 0.23 to 0.28, that is far more likely to have been because the intervening versions were built internally but never released for one reason or another.

Yeah developers tend to do that, sometimes they have builds that they never release but still count them as "full" version numbers. One project I am working on I have skipped a version numbers in releases because it is just not necessary to release it at that point. When they release .22 they will probably start working on .23 but that version might not get released as they might just decide to add something else that merits them bumbing it up to .24