Repeatable transmission nullifies sample return

[Wheffle]

I agree. That would be a simple fix to the problem: Pure data - like numbers from science instruments, should be worth the same if transmitted as if carried back manually (if they're carried back all that means is you've carried paper copies of the electronic data you already sent. ) But, physical items, like samples, must be returned to be worth anything. So you completely split up the data into:

Instrument Information only - transmission just as good as returning - so no reason to return it. (100% value for transmission).

Physical things - samples and material bays - only worth something if returned: (transmission disabled- no value for transmission).

That gives you two different types of mission to go on, without a lot of overlap between them.

I actually would really like this. It would simplify things quite a bit and make it more intuitive for new players.

[Idobox]

To avoid the transmission spamming and make players have goal oriented missions, a simple idea is to make parts like the goo canister and the material bay work only once.

Right now, I can send a probe of a Mun free return trajectory, and use a single goo canister to get science in 8 or 9 biomes, even without using transmission. If each goo canister can be used only once, I would have to choose between putting 5 times as many or bringing them back, and would send separate missions to study different areas.

[Psycix]

My current explorer vessel has the following action groups:

1 - Goo

2 - Materials

3 - Temperature

4 - Pressure

5 - Crew report

I faceroll them all, spamclick send, physics timewarp it 4x to speed it up.

Then I do a dozen of in-out EVA's.

Repeat for every point on each body:

-High space

-Near space

-High atmosphere (if any)

-Lower atmosphere (if any)

-Surface

-Biomes (if any)

This method got me THOUSANDS of science points from a single duna+ike mission, unlocking most of the tech tree.

Conlusion: System is flawed, encourages a grind and is not very interesting to play.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Psycix

[Seret]

This method got me THOUSANDS of science points from a single duna+ike mission, unlocking most of the tech tree.

Conlusion: System is flawed, encourages a grind and is not very interesting to play.

The system isn't intended to hamstring experienced players. If you're capable of running a Duna+Ike return mission then there's no reason for the tech tree to stand in your way. If you want to make the tree harder you can edit the config file to return less science from experiments.

[CressAlbane]

I agree with the idea that there should be separate "pools" of science for transmitting and recovering. Even if I transmit tons of times about something, there should still be some value in bringing it back (which is a challenge and makes the science process more fun). One easy way to encourage this would be making it possible to store multiple experiments in a goo pod / material lab.

[Grumman]

As well as splitting pools into (transmission or recovery) and (recovery only) Science I would also suggest changing what percentage of the remaining science different devices recover. Some devices like thermometers would then encourage repeated samples by giving you 5% of the remaining Science each time you transmit, while recovering a rocket that reached orbit might just give you a 100% lump sum the first time you do it.

[Psycix]

For the non believers:

EDIT: For completeness I went and did a complete test of both transmitting and recovering data for the SC-9001 Material Bay and Mystery Goo from solar orbit until achieving a return of 0.0 science. Long story short, the only penalty to transmission is the electric charge needed and the time spent clicking on the experiments.

                        Science Points Recived
test number          SC-9001               Mystery Goo
                recover   transmit      recover   transmit
totals          384.8     384.6         198       197.9

1               275       55            110       44
2               78.6      47.1          48.9      34.2
3               22.4      40.4          21.7      26.6
4               6.4       34.6          9.7       20.7
5               1.8       29.7          4.3       16.1
6               0.5       25.4          1.9       12.5
7               0.1	  21.8          0.8       9.7
8               0	  18.7          0.4       7.6
9                         16            0.2       5.9
10                        13.7          0.1       4.6
11                        11.8          0         3.6
12                        10.1                    2.8
13                        8.6                     2.2
14                        7.4                     1.7
15                        6.4                     1.3
16                        5.4                     1
17                        4.7                     0.8
18                        4                       0.6
19                        3.4                     0.5
20                        2.9                     0.4
21                        2.5                     0.3
22                        2.2                     0.2
23                        1.9                     0.2
24                        1.6                     0.1
25                        1.4                     0.1
26                        1.2                     0.1
27                        1                       0.1
28                        0.9                     0
29                        0.7
30                        0.6
31                        0.5
32                        0.5
33                        0.4
34                        0.3
35                        0.3
36                        0.2
37                        0.2
38                        0.2
39                        0.2
40                        0.1
41                        0.1
42                        0.1
43                        0.1
44                        0.1
45                        0.1
46                        0.1
47                        0

Source post. Thanks to yongedevil for performing the test.

As you can see, the eventual science points obtained are almost the same. Transmission-only is equally as effective (and much more practical) rendering sample return useless.

[SaturnV]

Better solution:

transmit: digital data only (part of science points)

return: digital and physical sample (mun stone for example)

the percentage various based on experiment type, say, material study bay consists of 30% digital and 70% sampl, crew report is 100% pure report.

[Markus Reese]

Well, I read about half, but then decided didn't have time to read every single one. But here is my two bits.

When you think about the arguements, there are two points to science. In it's environment, and in the lab. If you analyse a rock on Duna, you see how it is under that light, atmosphere, gravity, etc. But might not know the composition properly. The versa for when it is in the lab. So in my opinion, there should be a couple parts to science and they should be separate to eachother. You transmit, but that goo/sample etc is still kept. Bonus points for getting it back. Tranmitting in the future could become more complex (unless is. Havent done much travel on this new science yet) by requiring communication lines and satellites meaning that a high science mission to Duna could be much more complex with narrow windows of opportunity in which to transmit.

[Godot]

I agree ... there should be a certain percentage of the sience pool from (Surface sample, Mystery goo, Science jr) that can only can be gathered by returning the data ...

maybe 20%, so that, if you only ransmitted the data, you would only get 80% of the total points of the pool and only would get 100% if you had sample return missions in your mix that accounted for at least 20% of the total possible science

[Commander Zoom]

As I said on another thread:

I must be the only person who never even considered repeating a transmission. As far as I'm concerned, you should get one shot. I hope that Squad agrees and enforces this with a future update.

[UH60guy]

Zoom- You're not the only one. I treat the experiments as one-and-done out of sheer stubbornness on how I think it should have worked. It made more sense to me- when you expose your Goo, how can an experiment really be reset? Espescially when it "escapes into the water" on Kerbin. Single use experiments could also help solve this. If you want to repeat for consistent results, well, take along the extra mass and build a bigger ship. If you want a sample return, you're rewarded with doing it in fewer trips.

[Pulstar]

The ability to redo experiment cases is a bit of a backup in case the player finds himself at a science or money-based dead-end. Or so the player doesn't feel as "punished" if he accidentally ends up in the wrong biome.

[Potato Bill]

Why not just have two separate pools. One for samples analyzed on site, transmitting the results back (should probably require the jr. science lab). A second pool for return samples. Let's be honest how else are Kerbals going to get their pet Mun rocks.

[deiwy]

Better solution:

transmit: digital data only (part of science points)

return: digital and physical sample (mun stone for example)

This solution has been suggested multiple times... and it's a great solution! That's why i'll repeat it again in the hope that this will be implemented .

I also think an experiment should not give extra science if it is repeated -using the same part-. Else you will just spam the experiment until you've got all science, and another mission is no longer needed.

[Specialist290]

I'm going to second OP's suggestion, with the caveat that I think that repeating experiments should still allow you to get extra science on both transmissions and return missions. However, I do agree that there should be some kind of incentive for returning samples home rather than just transmitting data, so I agree that there should be an extra data pool set aside that you can only get science from if you recover rather than transmit.

To summarize, using OP's own summary format:

RETURN REPEATED a few times = all points

TRANSMIT REPEATED a lot of times = many points

RETURN + TRANSMIT REPEATED = many more points

RETURN REPEATED + TRANSMIT REPEATED = all points

Edited October 22, 2013 by Specialist290

[mdosogne]

A few suggestions:

1. It's been said before, but data transmission and return sample value should have separate values. I like to transmit data for a sample before returning, in case of catastrophic mission failure (i.e. Jeb runs low of fuel and ejects the science pods in favor of survival). Transmission shouldn't cause loss of physical specimen (if applicable).

2. The same goo/science pod should not be reusable. Once exposed, it's done.

3. If you forget to close the canister/science pod and then re-enter atmosphere, you've just cooked your experiment. Near-zero points for returning lumps of charcoal. There should of course be a way to close the science bay doors by right-clicking (currently only available through an action group).

4. Having multiple *data* points (by repeating an experiment) is valuable; if it can't be repeated/confirmed, what good are the results? For pure-data results, I'd suggest giving 40%/35%/20%/5%/1%/0.5% current value on the first/second/third/etc. results *performed with independent instruments* under similar conditions (i.e. a nearby location), to eliminate external variables. This gives me a reason for having multiple science pods (and building more and larger rockets 8), without being able to spam the science system.

5. I should not need to add six thermometers to my craft to store (and return?) six results (three or four perhaps, see #4)

6. While enabled, thermometers/barometers/etc should continuously record temperatures. If surface temperature is worth X points, then having a *complete* elevation/temperature graph should be worth more *on planets with an atmosphere*. That would require enabling the thermometer during *ascent*, since re-entry tends to be hot and cause problems with the instrumentation: reason for not leaving probe on the surface, even if you don't have a specimen to return. Of course, if you're showing re-entry effects on launch, that would also invalidate the results (see: why a 10 to 1 TWR is too much of a good thing).

7. How much value is there in recording the temperature in space, especially since it depends mostly on whether you're facing the sun or not! Temp. in space should be less valuable than on surface.

8. Should be able to return atmospheric samples (new part?).

9. Some physical samples should be fragile (excessive Gs break the sample, halving the points). This might be a reason to build a science lab in an orbital station for sample analysis w/o returning to Kerbin itself, or at least to diminish the scientific results of a crash-landing.

10. There should be a value in returning a Kerbal from space, and successful EVA on a foreign body (just like returning a ship).

11. Multiple crew/eva reports should not count, unless a) a certain time has passed (another report on another day), or a different kerbal writes a report (in which case it has diminishing, but non-zero value).

12. Give different value on crew reports for different "stupidity" levels.

13. Why does an EVA "report" not have 100% value for transmission? If this was intended to simulate the value of returning a Kerbal from EVA (#10), perhaps a rewording of the science report is sufficient to correct it.

14. Please add a drill component to extract a "core sample". Would be great if it applied significant torque on the lander, and significant electric charge.

Otherwise, having a great time with the new career mode!

[nhnifong]

mdosogne's comments are excellent. I can only hope the modding community has the know-how and the motivation to implement something this good.

[Dunbaratu]

3. If you forget to close the canister/science pod and then re-enter atmosphere, you've just cooked your experiment. Near-zero points for returning lumps of charcoal. There should of course be a way to close the science bay doors by right-clicking (currently only available through an action group).

hHuh? But to close it you have to transmit the data instead of doing a recovery on it. Closimg the pod precludes doing recovery. The reason I'm landing with the pod open is because that's the only way to get the game not to wipe the data prior to landing.

5. I should not need to add six thermometers to my craft to store (and return?) six results (three or four perhaps, see #4)

How about a "data store" part that represents clunky 1960's computer technology to store electronic data gathered? With it you can re-use an instrument and keep multiple readings. Without it you only get the one.

10. There should be a value in returning a Kerbal from space, and successful EVA on a foreign body (just like returning a ship).

I imagine that this makes more sense to do with the planned but unimplemented money aspect of the game that will come eventually, rather than with science points. Make death expensive, or make it cause the people holding the purse strings to get more stingy with your budget, or make it start costing more money to recruit kerbalnauts the more of them you leave stranded. (Or better yet, the more kerbals that have died the stupider the new recruits get (the ones with low stupidity values don't volunteer anymore).)

[betaking]

why shouldn't the player feel punished if he makes a mistake? You shouldn't prevent the player from making mistakes, nor should you hold off them being punished for making mistakes. Rather you should tell them what sort of mistake they made.

[betaking]

hHuh? But to close it you have to transmit the data instead of doing a recovery on it. Closimg the pod precludes doing recovery. The reason I'm landing with the pod open is because that's the only way to get the game not to wipe the data prior to landing.

no, the goo would only work once, you could close it and it wouldn't be wiped.

How about a "data store" part that represents clunky 1960's computer technology to store electronic data gathered? With it you can re-use an instrument and keep multiple readings. Without it you only get the one.

this is a good idea.

[Dunbaratu]

no, the goo would only work once, you could close it and it wouldn't be wiped.

I'd much prefer it if it only works the lastmost time you did it (in other words if you haven't transmitted you can wipe it and try again.) This is because performing an experiment is the only way to detect if you are in a unique new biome worth new points. It would suck to think you are in a new biome, perform the experiment, and find out the game considers it the same as a previous biome and you've wasted your one shot.

[Grumman]

why shouldn't the player feel punished if he makes a mistake? You shouldn't prevent the player from making mistakes, nor should you hold off them being punished for making mistakes. Rather you should tell them what sort of mistake they made.

Pointless micromanagement is pointless. Unless there's a situation in which you wouldn't want to close the pod, it should happen automatically if it is necessary.

[ZaphodTX]

I have an idea for a solution that's simple.

Some experiments can't be transmitted at least right away, while others can. A mass spectrometer and science lab would be late-game unlockable parts to analyse EVA samples, which would have to be returned under most circumstances. A new kind of experiment would be added that always has to be returned. Maybe something involving biology.

This would motivate the construction of bases and stations on interplanetary missions. Jeb goes and collects some Duna rocks and takes them back to the lander where Bill pops them into the "Insta-Study Elemental Content Analyzomatic". Meanwhile in the Hitchhiker some bean sprouts and a cage of hamsters are gleefully running in their wheels in low gravity on Duna. Bob must make sure they survive the trip to Kerbin because other KETA won't allow the results to be published and no science points will be granted.

[Dunbaratu]

I have an idea for a solution that's simple.

Some experiments can't be transmitted at least right away, while others can. A mass spectrometer and science lab would be late-game unlockable parts to analyse EVA samples, which would have to be returned under most circumstances. A new kind of experiment would be added that always has to be returned. Maybe something involving biology.

This would motivate the construction of bases and stations on interplanetary missions. Jeb goes and collects some Duna rocks and takes them back to the lander where Bill pops them into the "Insta-Study Elemental Content Analyzomatic". Meanwhile in the Hitchhiker some bean sprouts and a cage of hamsters are gleefully running in their wheels in low gravity on Duna. Bob must make sure they survive the trip to Kerbin because other KETA won't allow the results to be published and no science points will be granted.

Perhaps the some kind of advanced science part that can perform the full experiment without a return would have a large electricity drain and have a lot of mass. That would give people an incentive to make space stations and remote bases, as they'd be the only way to perform such experiments without a return.