I am disappointed that there is no science in Sandbox mode

[johnnyhandsome]

In my opinion we need it because:

It is fun to play sandbox, and being able to do experiments in sandbox is something we want to be able to do.

We can go somewhere, collect a sample, and get confirmation of the game that we did so. People roleplay, and if the game allows us to do science in sandbox then we will do science in sandbox. Not because it has a point, but because it is fun.

Yes, exactly, it's just plain fun and adds another level of immersion to the game. Not putting it in sandbox mode is bizarre.

[Psycix]

its good the way it is! im sure the devs had a discussion about it and about sandbox mode

Why?

The fact that you have no desire for it doesn't mean nobody should be able to.

To me you sound like this: "I don't use spaceplanes so they should be cut from the game."

Why limit something for other people simply because you do not wish to use that yourself?

[paleorob]

At the end of the development process Sandbox is not going to be the main point of this game (as far as I can tell). My reasoning? If Sandbox was going to be the main point of the game why is Squad making a Career mode in the first place?

Given that it is reasonable that Sandbox would serve a secondary purpose in the final game: the purpose of simulation. Real-world simulations of space missions can be very precise but we don't actually know the results until we conduct the experiments in the real world. Career mode is the "real world" for Kerbals.

Saying that challenges like, "collect this many points using only these parts" won't be possible is silly and wrong. Anyone who has worked all the way through the tech tree will be able to do exactly that. Secondly, do you think Squad cares more about forum challenges or a challenging Career mode? Suggesting that science points be cut off after the end of the tech tree is equally silly: We've been to the moon and have better technology now - does that mean a manned landing on the moon would result in exactly 0 new information? No. Logic dictates that should also be the case in KSP.

There are other issues with Science! in the game but I don't see not having access to experimental results in Sandbox to be one of them.

[Beachernaut]

Why not?

How sandbox is sandbox if you are not able to do everything?

Challenges like: "Aquire x science points using "these" parts." would be impossible.

That pretty much invalidates the entire career mode at this point. I'm not opposed to science working in sandbox mode. However, I don't think that it's a big deal that it doesn't.

Edit: Sooooo... It appears that you can run the experiments, and attempt to beam them back. The only thing that you don't get is points. Since you can't use the points anyway, I don't see where the problem is.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Beachernaut

[Sean Mirrsen]

I'd agree that points could be totaled for skirmish mode, but I find the experiment results themselves saying that it is meaningless (i.e. everything is already discovered) is perfect.

More importantly though, science in KSP works in such a way that there is a finite amount of science to do in a given area. You won't recover any science in sandbox mode simply because all science has already been done - scientific values of all experiments are zero.

[adge]

Isn't that like wanting to collect materials and resources in Creative mode Minecraft?

[Psycix]

Saying that challenges like, "collect this many points using only these parts" won't be possible is silly and wrong. Anyone who has worked all the way through the tech tree will be able to do exactly that.

No, we can't do challenges like that because before we have those parts in career we've already done a lot of the science.

More importantly though, science in KSP works in such a way that there is a finite amount of science to do in a given area. You won't recover any science in sandbox mode simply because all science has already been done - scientific values of all experiments are zero.

So why not give them the same value as career mode?

[Beachernaut]

So why not give them the same value as career mode?

Then what would be the point of career mode?

[air805ronin]

So why not give them the same value as career mode?

Because experiments only give big value the first time you do them, then they drop dramatically because you're just repeating experiments. While repitition of experiments is good, ala the scientific method, usually it doesn't discover anything new it just confirms your prior results.. When you're going for pure discovery, trying new experiments is going to yield the most benefit.

For instance, an EVA over grasslands over Kerbin yields 8 science the first time then drops to 2.4 science to additional EVA reports over grassland.

edit: If everything is unlocked, do you want every experiment to give 8 science as a score attribute, or give 0 because there are no more scientific discoveries to be made? Essentially the mechanic from Career mode isn't intended to work in Sandbox mode.

[Psycix]

Then what would be the point of career mode?

The challenge of unlocking the tech tree.

Because experiments only give big value the first time you do them, then they drop dramatically because you're just repeating experiments. While repitition of experiments is good, ala the scientific method, usually it doesn't discover anything new it just confirms your prior results.. When you're going for pure discovery, trying new experiments is going to yield the most benefit.

For instance, an EVA over grasslands over Kerbin yields 8 science the first time then drops to 2.4 science to additional EVA reports over grassland.

edit: If everything is unlocked, do you want every experiment to give 8 science as a score attribute, or give 0 because there are no more scientific discoveries to be made? Essentially the mechanic from Career mode isn't intended to work in Sandbox mode.

There is no reason to make us unable to earn points like in career. (while simply not being able to spend them)

[Beachernaut]

There is no reason to make us unable to earn points like in career. (while simply not being able to spend them)

Since you can't use them, there's no reason to give them either...

This is really just an opinion discussion. You can do everything except get points. Since you can't use them..... I fail to see a problem. Besides, it doesn't take that long to unlock the tech tree, so if you want to participate in a forum challenge, most likely you'll already have everything unlocked already. Which makes points in sandbox mode even more redundant.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Beachernaut

[Psycix]

You can't spend points in the game Tetris either. So there is no point for them, right?

Why is it bad if points are there? Just existing. Simply "being there" for those who are interested in them.

Nobody has to take note if they don't want to.

[air805ronin]

The challenge of unlocking the tech tree.

There is no reason to make us unable to earn points like in career. (while simply not being able to spend them)

Which was the question in my edit. If it works exactly like career then you'll only get full points the first time you do an experiment. Then it will drop dramatically, and that seems to apply to future flights. If people intend to use it as scorekeeping for science challenges they'll have to make sure they aren't suffering from that diminishing returns to get the best possible score.

Does that make sense?

[Psycix]

Yes, just have the diminishing returns in there exactly like in career.

[dr_jt]

Once you have filled out the research tree ins't this version of career mode the same as the sand box but with science?

[air805ronin]

Yes, just have the diminishing returns in there exactly like in career.

To me that isn't a good path because people will be making new saves for science challenges to avoid diminishing returns. Its already an uphill battle to me because I don't view KSP as a "high score" type of game.

edit: What I mean is diminishing returns should be removed in sandbox so people can do those types of high science score challenges. However you should only get points once per experiment in a single misison, so people aren't spamming eva reports.

Edited October 17, 2013 by air805ronin

[Beachernaut]

You can't spend points in the game Tetris either. So there is no point for them, right?

That's a terrible example. Since the goal of tetris is to get a high score, the very nature of science points in KSP completely invalidates your statement.

[DChurchill]

Since you can't use them..... I fail to see a problem.

I fail to see, then, why you're opposed to granting them in sandbox? The infrastructure is already there. There is no additional cost to opening it up in sandbox.

[Corw]

Once you have filled out the research tree ins't this version of career mode the same as the sand box but with science?

There, Psycix, there is your perfect solution. You already have your sandbox with points. Go find something else to cry about.

[techonce]

The way I see it is that you don't get science points in Sandbox since everything has already been discovered. But really I don't care either way. Once money is introduced we will have these same discussions about money as well. By definition a sandbox mode generally does not keep track of money and the like.

If people are frantic about not having science and they want to be able to track it for purposes of challenges, then perhaps that is something that a scenario should be used for. Otherwise, how will you prove that all of the science is from the task assigned?

[Fiddlestyx]

To the people saying you have to learn it all in career mode. It is all on the wiki, so we don't have to "learn" anything. If they put it on the wiki, it should be unlocked in sandbox.

[paleorob]

Once you have filled out the research tree ins't this version of career mode the same as the sand box but with science?

Yes. This is exactly true.

[BostLabs]

Sandbox: science is closed. End of discussion.

You have to L/"earn" through the career mode and live with the choices you pick.

Nothing stopping you having 3 saved games ;P

I think I have 5 now. Well, that is not quite right. I have 5 different versions of the game with a couple of saves within them.

I can can trim that a bit once I finish the current Beagle Flight story.

[Psycix]

Once you have filled out the research tree ins't this version of career mode the same as the sand box but with science?

No, because most of the science is already done.

Go find something else to cry about.

Why is everybody crying about a feature that doesn't harm them in any way? You can ignore it if you want to.

I can't ignore the fact that it isn't there.

[Corw]

Why is everybody crying about a feature that doesn't harm them in any way? You can ignore it if you want to.

I can't ignore the fact that it isn't there.

oh the irony The lack of science in sandbox is the feature that doesn't harm you in any way. The point that I mind is that you present it like it is something really really bad and gamebreaking. Personally, I don't really care, you could have your flavored text and science points, but it is completely irrelevant and meaningless issue.