Is it just me, or is research a bit schizophrenic?

[Tassyr]

So like most folk the first thing I did was poke at the research tree. And... I'm confused as hell about some of the placements.

Why are things like thermometers and ladders placed SO late in the tech tree? I mean, here's a sampling of the 'endgame' content.

FTX-2 External Fuel Duct. (Is a tube that hard to research? O.o)

Thermometer parts. (Seriously.... thermometers are amazingly simple. Why is this MORE complex than the goop canister with all its reporting gear?)

Structural shapes like the octagonal frame and the cube frame. (Metal bars in a cube are more complex than a remotely operated probe core?)

Does anyone else think that the research tree, while a great idea, needs some -serious- restructuring?

[EvilotionCR2]

Exactly. 10chars.

[lazarus1024]

I am sure it needs a little tweaking. However, it so far seems relatively fine to me. If you note in Harvs release notes he mentions that Research will be unlocking future functionality also.

So I wouldn't be surpised if there was more than just parts that research can unlock at some point...which might be why some things like Thermometers are located at the end of the tech tree.

Its a thought...not necessarily a good one. Also some of it like the external fuel ducts add a lot more flexibility in designs and can make them much more efficient and useful (aparagus staging anyone?)...so finding them later on seems resonable, even if they are relatively simple things.

[Tassyr]

I am sure it needs a little tweaking. However, it so far seems relatively fine to me. If you note in Harvs release notes he mentions that Research will be unlocking future functionality also.

So I wouldn't be surpised if there was more than just parts that research can unlock at some point...which might be why some things like Thermometers are located at the end of the tech tree.

Its a thought...not necessarily a good one. Also some of it like the external fuel ducts add a lot more flexibility in designs and can make them much more efficient and useful (aparagus staging anyone?)...so finding them later on seems resonable, even if they are relatively simple things.

Okay, I'll give you that on the fuel duct. But... a metal cage that you basically bolt parts onto is more complex than a freaking high tech engine? Or a sat-dish style antenna? And while the functionality might unlock later, it still boggles me a bit that a -thermometer- is so hard to get to. I mean, if they want it to unlock functionality, wouldn't it be easy to have say, "Advanced Thermometer Analysis" as the endgame there, with the thermometer unlockable early on? You know, claim it's some sort of data-interpretation software that's automatically stuffed into your command pod/probe cores.

[Seret]

The tech tree isn't necessarily intended to represent how tricky the part is to invent, it's there to provide progressive disclosure of game features and abilities. So you're not given the parts to build space stations or do funky things like asparagus staging until you've mastered all the parts of a basic rocket.

[Martonaut]

there is going to be debate about the tech tree, and it will most likley change a bit on the future, but anyways its super fun to do sience to unlock things

[SaturnV]

Read the description then you know that the goo thing is recycled from trash pile

[Tassyr]

The tech tree isn't necessarily intended to represent how tricky the part is to invent, it's there to provide progressive disclosure of game features and abilities. So you're not given the parts to build space stations or do funky things like asparagus staging until you've mastered all the parts of a basic rocket.

So... it's a glorified tutorial? That... that really doesn't feel right...

[sickboy]

It'll most likely be tweaked, but look at it this way, it's a game, not reality, things are the way they are for reasons of progression and balance, not to mirror real life

[Seret]

So... it's a glorified tutorial?

Yep. Don't forget that R&D is only one part of what the Career Mode game will be when it's finished.

[regex]

There's a mod what came out last night that changes the tech tree to something a tad more challenging and organized in a more logical way. Also, you can change the values in ScienceDefs.cfg to suit your fancy; I have them set such that science returns 1/5th the normal value. That, combined with a different tech tree, provides a "grindier" experience that one would expect from a proper tech tree.

Edited October 17, 2013 by regex
Added link

[Tassyr]

It'll most likely be tweaked, but look at it this way, it's a game, not reality, things are the way they are for reasons of progression and balance, not to mirror real life

I dunno though. Really simple things- like basic structural parts- seems to me those don't need to be balanced to lategame like, say, mainsail engines, right? Or is there some power to these small strut-made cubes that I've missed? XD

There's a mod what came out last night that changes the tech tree to something a tad more challenging and organized in a more logical way. Also, you can change the values in ScienceDefs.cfg to suit your fancy; I have them set such that science returns 1/5th the normal value. That, combined with a different tech tree, provides a "grindier" experience that one would expect from a proper tech tree.

Honestly I have a feeling that's the route that I"m gonna go- I'm going to end up redoing the structure on my own.

At the very least I plan to give you the frigging Stayputnik or a decoupler at start. (It just doesn't feel right, even for kerbals, that you can't shed weight on descent!)

Edited October 17, 2013 by Tassyr

[allmappedout]

It'll most likely be tweaked, but look at it this way, it's a game, not reality, things are the way they are for reasons of progression and balance, not to mirror real life

I think OP's point is that it's not exactly balanced. Whilst I've still not played 0.22 yet (catastrophic hardware failure days before release ), and am willing to reserve judgement on the tech tree, I'd like to point out that real life is actually a very good analogy for balance and progression. Rocketry was a step beyond what was possible at every point, so any achievement was because of new technology. As a result, it provides a fairly good timeline to model your own on, even if you want some artistic license.

I still believe that you should start really basic - strap a Rocket control system to an SRB and let it fly as one of the first things you do. That's basically where rocketry started - a gyroscope and a ton of explosive behind it, pointed at the enemy. Everything else stemmed from there.

[Accelerando]

It really is. If it's any consolation, I very much doubt it's going to stay that way.

A lot of the reason the tech tree is so haphazardly ordered is that there just really aren't that many parts/technologies implemented to make a tech tree with at the moment. In light of that, Squad placed science parts and other parts that provide basic structural and aerodynamic functionality all across the tech tree to keep a playable progression of difficulty in lieu of a suite of parts better suited for making a tech progression with. If we started with struts, probe cores, thermometers, fuel lines etc, we would have a lot of tools for science collection and a lot of flexibility in rocket-building at our disposal, for not a lot of gain.

[SteevyT]

I dunno though. Really simple things- like basic structural parts- seems to me those don't need to be balanced to lategame like, say, mainsail engines, right? Or is there some power to these small strut-made cubes that I've missed? XD

You can do some really cool engine clusters with the small cubic strut. I think that was the thing a lot of (if not most) people used it for.

[Blackstar]

FTX-2 External Fuel Duct. (Is a tube that hard to research? O.o)

It may look like a tube in-game, but in real life, pumping fuel between multiple non-adjacent tanks and engines in a rocket is extremely complex to do right. Done wrong it will result in spins, flameouts, and fiery explosions. That's the reason that very few real world rockets actually do that, and why (other than aerodynamic concerns) asparagus staging isn't worth the trouble.

So to pump fuel so simply and reliably in KSP, very advanced technology must surely be involved.

[BubbaWilkins]

It may look like a tube in-game, but in real life, pumping fuel between multiple non-adjacent tanks and engines in a rocket is extremely complex to do right. Done wrong it will result in spins, flameouts, and fiery explosions. That's the reason that very few real world rockets actually do that, and why (other than aerodynamic concerns) asparagus staging isn't worth the trouble.

So to pump fuel so simply and reliably in KSP, very advanced technology must surely be involved.

You can go one step further and equate complexity to the materials involved. Surely an external fuel line which can withstand space and re-entry would require massive advances is technology.

Personally, I think everything should have started with basic flight mastery. Getting a manned rocket at all in the first tier seems a pretty huge leap.

[Tassyr]

It may look like a tube in-game, but in real life, pumping fuel between multiple non-adjacent tanks and engines in a rocket is extremely complex to do right. Done wrong it will result in spins, flameouts, and fiery explosions. That's the reason that very few real world rockets actually do that, and why (other than aerodynamic concerns) asparagus staging isn't worth the trouble.

So to pump fuel so simply and reliably in KSP, very advanced technology must surely be involved.

I stand corrected!

[Seret]

I still believe that you should start really basic - strap a Rocket control system to an SRB and let it fly as one of the first things you do.

Then you'll be pleased to discover that's one of your very few options at Tier 1. Except that in true Kerbal style it'll be a manned pod strapped to the top

[Katve]

Fuel dutch is very complicated technology IRL and I like place it currently is. Also thermometer that works on Zero G and in all different gravitys and in vacuum?

[techonce]

Fuel dutch is very complicated technology IRL and I like place it currently is. Also thermometer that works on Zero G and in all different gravitys and in vacuum?

To me the fuel transfer represents advanced design methods, not necessirily a pipe. Okay it is just a pipe based on the desciptions, but using that pipe properly.

As for a thermometer... Thermocouples. they are gravity and pressure indepentant.

[AmpsterMan]

So... it's a glorified tutorial? That... that really doesn't feel right...

Instead of a tutorial, think of it like the first few levels in Portal. The devs are holding your hands as you play while simultaneously showing you what this game is about (exploration and scientific discovery) all while never creatively limiting you.

At first I was a bit skeptical of the order of unlocks, thinking it was a bit arbritrary. However, the choice to balance it around gameplay rather than historical precedent was a good move. Also, the fact that I HAVE to make tough decisions on what to pick (bigger fuel tanks or unmanned probes)

[Tassyr]

Fuel dutch is very complicated technology IRL and I like place it currently is. Also thermometer that works on Zero G and in all different gravitys and in vacuum?

I still say it'd be easier to design that thermometer than say, a self-loading nuclear- powered liquid-fuel-burning engine for long duration spaceflight. Or an entirely remote guided probe core.

[JeanHavoc]

I kind of like the tech tree as it is. Or rather I should say I kind of don't like it very much, as it forces me to use parts and rocket styles that I never use in the early going, sans most of the stuff that I've come to rely on in sandbox. Last night, when I was first going through 0.22 I spent about 15 minutes trying to decide where to invest my science points, and I felt it was an actually meaningful decision. If I got everything I wanted up front, I wouldn't have to think about if I want to put RCS and Fuel Lines off for a while while I get a few more basic parts. More than that, I'm having to think about how to do more with less, something I never needed to do before.

I'll grant you it's likely not realistic and that the progression might need some tweaks, but as far as gameplay goes I have no complaints. As a matter of fact, 0.22 has kind of been instrumental in showing me what can't be done with a particular suite of parts. Like trying to go to the Mun and come back with no battery power or solar cells. Yes I'm sure there's some madman here who could do it blindfolded, but I lost a lander that way and so I was forced to think how to act within my means. That's still a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

Well, I guess that's just my opinion anyway and it's only based on a few hours of work. Still I'm pleased thus far and I have a reason to go to places like Bop now. Of course returning soil samples collected in person from Bop will be a challenge but then that's part of the fun.

[techonce]

I'll grant you it's likely not realistic and that the progression might need some tweaks, but as far as gameplay goes I have no complaints. As a matter of fact, 0.22 has kind of been instrumental in showing me what can't be done with a particular suite of parts. Like trying to go to the Mun and come back with no battery power or solar cells. Yes I'm sure there's some madman here who could do it blindfolded, but I lost a lander that way and so I was forced to think how to act within my means. That's still a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

Currently Jeb is waiting on the Mun with 2 goo containers and a notepad of science. I hope to go retrieve him someday. UNfortunatly I will never be able to recover the goo samples.