Realism Overhaul

[NathanKell]

Oh, right: unless anyone objects, I suggest taking talk of this particular subset of realism to the thread I just made in Releases dedicated to it, and this thread can go back to big picture discussion...

[Camacha]

Just in case, that is this thread.

[Zander]

Where I can download this? The download comes with a bunch of other mods.

yeah im a little confused too. It comes with a bunch of zip archives inside and a lot of other mods. Those mods are all modified to work with the new kerbin size i think. Should we unzip all of them and then put them all in the game data folder? but what if we already have existing versions of those mods? delete them first?

[NathanKell]

What file did you download!?

[Zander]

What file did you download!?

One of the dropbox download links earlier in the discussion. I see now that you have opened a new released mod discussion and there it has just the solar system so from now on I will get it form there.

[Starwaster]

One of the dropbox download links earlier in the discussion. I see now that you have opened a new released mod discussion and there it has just the solar system so from now on I will get it form there.

you grabbed something from his signature. each of which also contains but a single mod but some are composed of numerous files.

[Guest]

Oh, right: unless anyone objects, I suggest taking talk of this particular subset of realism to the thread I just made in Releases dedicated to it, and this thread can go back to big picture discussion...

Good idea. I'd like to get back to what I posted a few pages back, just before the "release" discussion started. We were discussing the problem of scaling things so they're both realistic and playing nice with KSP and PhysX. I think that's something we need to figure out, especially since I'd like to run BobCat's Sovet pack with this.

This is a difficult problem. There's an obvious solution of scaling everything 1:1. That would require a bigger VAB, but it's been done. On the other hand, without some sort of "batch rescale" plugin, it'd be a pain to support.

Another approach would be to use 64% scale for planets, then re-scale the displays to make it seem like it's bigger. Of course, that'd take a lot of rescaling a lot of hardcoded things (including default timewarp scale), not to mention changes to plugins. I don't think it's an optimum solution for keeping it "100% real".

Perhaps a good compromise would be to keep the visuals scaled down to 64%, but the actual values would be scaled 1:1. Pretty much the only "unrealistic" things would be material density and surface area, and even then, it's just be a visual thing, with everything using RL values. Now, this would work fine as long as we could tell KSP what something's surface area is (or at least what to multiply the value by), as opposed to it being calculated directly from the model. I don't think there's any way to reliably compare a rocket to a planet, so as long as models are completely separate from in-game calculations, it should work.

Addendum: PhysX might not like the largest superboosters. There were real designs that exceeded 12m diameter, KSP has issues even with 6.25m. So the "1:1" option, while it has it's benefits, would require at least a new strut model so the resulting rockets don't look too ugly strutted down.

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

How do the mods work? I mean, with FASA, does it make it realistic, or do I have to mod it myself?

[asmi]

Addendum: PhysX might not like the largest superboosters. There were real designs that exceeded 12m diameter, KSP has issues even with 6.25m. So the "1:1" option, while it has it's benefits, would require at least a new strut model so the resulting rockets don't look too ugly strutted down.

That is a technical problem that could possibly be solved. I really hope nobody would dare to say "impossible" after what was done already...

[NathanKell]

TheCanadianVendingMachine: sorry, I don't get what you mean. Which mods do what to FASA?

asmi: heh. Also, ferram upthread said he was maybe going to write a plugin to deal with the joint wobble problem. With that, I think larger massed rockets could work, which means if Editor Extensions removes the height limit on the VAB (as EdTools used to) we might as well go with 1:1 sizing.

[Camacha]

The planets are scaled to real earth scale so that dV, gravity, etc. will be correct. Rocket sizes will be in 64% scale, so as not to break the game with 10-15m diameter parts. I'll be working with ferram to make sure the aerodynamics don't change from real life.

Forgive me for asking this, but why would you not scale everything to the same scale, whether that be 64% or 100% or 10%? It seems to me that the whole effort of scaling the solar system up to 100% is kind of defeated when you only launch scale models (64%) into space.

I understand that big rockets might pose a problem, but scaling the solar system proportionally to the rockets should not be a problem, should it?

Edited October 25, 2013 by Camacha

[Guest]

Forgive me for asking this, but why would you not scale everything to the same scale, whether that be 64% or 100% or 10%? It seems to me that the whole effort of scaling the solar system up to 100% is kind of defeated when you only launch scale models (64%) into space.

I understand that big rockets might pose a problem, but scaling the solar system proportionally to the rockets should not be a problem, should it?

Note, if you're going to scale absolutely everything, this means messing with timewarp and a few other things to make it seem like everything's 1:1. There's no way to reliably compare a planet to a rocket, so nobody would notice if we kept visuals 64% while scaling values up.

That said:

That is a technical problem that could possibly be solved. I really hope nobody would dare to say "impossible" after what was done already...

It'd be great to run full 1:1, also an anti-wobble plugin would be the best addition to KSP since BobCat started his Soviet pack. I'm really looking forward to this anti-wobble solution, and I hope it'd be independent of the other realistic mods out there. That's gonna be useful for just about everyone.

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

Nathan, I meant how does your mod, this one I presume, edit FASA. I think I heard you say it will scale it up?

[Starwaster]

TheCanadianVendingMachine: sorry, I don't get what you mean. Which mods do what to FASA?

asmi: heh. Also, ferram upthread said he was maybe going to write a plugin to deal with the joint wobble problem. With that, I think larger massed rockets could work, which means if Editor Extensions removes the height limit on the VAB (as EdTools used to) we might as well go with 1:1 sizing.

That would likely require changing the joint type or auto-strutting the pieces the way Procedural Fairings auto-struts its fairings with invisible struts.

[Starwaster]

Nathan, I meant how does your mod, this one I presume, edit FASA. I think I heard you say it will scale it up?

THIS mod scales the Kerbol system. Mainly just Kerbin right now. Kerbin (when using this plugin) is the size of Earth. Its gravity is unaltered because Kerbin is already 1G. Its orbit is already altered, which at the moment, puts it at the far edge of the Kerbol system, but eventually all the planets will be rescaled and have their orbits adjusted so that they are further out than they currently are.

It has no direct effect on parts.

You might possibly be thinking of Modular Fuels (which Nathan is maintaining and which was developed by Ialdoboath) which allows you to reconfigure fuel tanks and engines in the VAB. At its most extreme realism settings it also rescales the masses of tanks and engines. (resources are also less dense which affects how engines and tanks were scaled so that they would have the proper mass ratios and TWR ratios)

[NathanKell]

@Camacha, if we scale planets down, we would also have to hack every call to what gravity is at a specific point (among other things). Since gravity decreases with the square of the distance, not linearly, the gradient wouldn't be the same going to orbit.

@Dragon01, isn't 100,000x enough? You could do a year and a half journey in about 8 minutes, I think. (That's how long it took Voyager to get to Jupiter by way of a gravity assist). But it might well be possible to add another level of timewarp.

@TheCanadianVendingMachine, No, it doesn't. I mentioned in my screenshots that I had personally scaled _down_ the FASA Gemini to fit the same scale as the Mk1 pod. Totally unrelated to this mod. That said, MFSC does support FASA engines and tanks, so if you want realistic Isp and thrust-to-weight-ratio for FASA engines, get that.

[Guest]

@Dragon01, isn't 100,000x enough? You could do a year and a half journey in about 8 minutes, I think. (That's how long it took Voyager to get to Jupiter by way of a gravity assist). But it might well be possible to add another level of timewarp.

8 minutes is pretty long if you're sitting there doing nothing. Shortening that to 0.8 minutes would probably be appreciated by the players. Also, quite a few people already found current max timewarp to be insufficient (especially physics one), so this plugin would also get use independently of the realism mod.

[NathanKell]

Oh, I'm not saying such a plugin wouldn't be useful! I'd use it.

It's just not a showstopper yet for me, and thus I'd encourage anyone who wants it to write one. My plate is...kinda full. :}

Also, regarding the real solar system discussion. One reason for setting the orbits exactly like the real world is so that we can use real porkchop plots. Otherwise, since the existing KSP transfer window calculators will be out the window, we'll have no way of determining transfer windows.

Unless someone rights a custom porkchop plot generator for whatever orbits we decide on.

[Camacha]

@Camacha, if we scale planets down, we would also have to hack every call to what gravity is at a specific point (among other things). Since gravity decreases with the square of the distance, not linearly, the gradient wouldn't be the same going to orbit.

I understand that it causes problems, but scaling up also seems to cause the necessary problems with texture size and whatnot. So it basically boils down to rockets having to be hacked to allow for a larger scale? Or are you accepting the discrepancy between the full size planets and model rockets for what it is?

Note, if you're going to scale absolutely everything, this means messing with timewarp and a few other things to make it seem like everything's 1:1. There's no way to reliably compare a planet to a rocket, so nobody would notice if we kept visuals 64% while scaling values up.

I do not agree. It seems just silly to me to solve all these problems and do all that work to end up with something that is still not properly scaled. And actually, I do think it matters, as 64% is a whole lot smaller than 100% and in space your only reference is the planet and your ship.

[ANWRocketMan]

@NathanKell ~ You said in the other thread that Minmus could be a captured Asteroid. I just had another idea: Why not make it similar to 3753 Cruithne? The asteroid in 1:1 orbital resonance with Earth? That should make a good challenge to get to!

OR Minmus could be moved to orbit Duna to stand in for Phobos or Deimos(Phobos most realistically), while Gilly is set in that role(as 3753 Cruithne).

Edited October 25, 2013 by ANWRocketMan

[Guest]

I do not agree. It seems just silly to me to solve all these problems and do all that work to end up with something that is still not properly scaled. And actually, I do think it matters, as 64% is a whole lot smaller than 100% and in space your only reference is the planet and your ship.

Believe me, in space, it doesn't matter. Compared to a realistic planet, 60m vs. 100m isn't noticeable at all. Anyway, it seems like we will be going 1:1, with plugins for fixing wobble and enabling higher timewarp. They're going to be amazing additions even without the rescale.

[Starwaster]

I understand that it causes problems, but scaling up also seems to cause the necessary problems with texture size and whatnot. So it basically boils down to rockets having to be hacked to allow for a larger scale? Or are you accepting the discrepancy between the full size planets and model rockets for what it is?

The only part of rockets being re-scaled is their mass. Dimensionally they're to scale with the planet. (they even were before except that the planet was too small)

[Camacha]

Believe me, in space, it doesn't matter. Compared to a realistic planet, 60m vs. 100m isn't noticeable at all.

At ground level it won't be, in space the difference is noticeable as the rocket it much smaller compared to the planet at the same heigth and those are, of course, your references in space. It is not like it is negligible, as a craft at 64% equates to a planet that is actually 156% of the craft scale. That is a huge difference!

The only part of rockets being re-scaled is their mass. Dimensionally they're to scale with the planet. (they even were before except that the planet was too small)

Apparently they are not, NathanKell stated they are 64%.

The planets are scaled to real earth scale so that dV, gravity, etc. will be correct. Rocket sizes will be in 64% scale, so as not to break the game with 10-15m diameter parts. I'll be working with ferram to make sure the aerodynamics don't change from real life.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Camacha

[Guest]

Note, this is old info. This post from Asmi implies that scaling everything 1:1 could be made workable.

That is a technical problem that could possibly be solved. I really hope nobody would dare to say "impossible" after what was done already...

We've got a lot of experienced plugin writers on board, a bath rescaler wouldn't be hard for them (not to mention historical packs would need other adjustments to use real values anyway).

[asmi]

We've got a lot of experienced plugin writers on board, a bath rescaler wouldn't be hard for them (not to mention historical packs would need other adjustments to use real values anyway).

I agree that there should be some sort of automation for that rescaling, otherwise it'll be a day job for all of us to manually rescale all the parts in all mods (not to mention that a fair amount of them prohibit such distribution).