Improving the science grind

[Bilgewater]

The current model of data gathering is a grind of the worst kind. All it consists of is clicking buttons. I feel it is worth it, but extremely boring and unrealistic, to continue to gather data until you start getting below five points or so, which is a lot of button pressing. My suggestion would best be shown in the following example.

Let's say I've just arrived in orbit around Eve with a probe, which is pretty easy around the middle of the tech tree, and I've got a Science Jr. on board. Rather than activate the module twenty times each time I'm "near Eve" or "high above Eve," I'd like to turn the thing on, have it continuously collect data, then transmit the data at my leisure. During continuous collection, the value of the data decreases as an inverse proportion to time. So, the first interval of ten seconds of research would be worth, say, 30 points, next interval, only 20, next interval only 10 (these are just illustrative values), and so on until the data you could collect at such a position isn't going to yield valuable information. This data is then stored in an on-board computer in the command module which has some capacity threshold to force you to transmit sooner or later.

One nice gameplay effect of this would be that gathering data, a low energy task, could be done on the dark side of a planet and transmission could be done while in direct sunlight.

Summary:

-Add data storage values to command modules

-Make research continuous

-Research in a particular spot should be inversely proportional to time rather than button clicks

-As stored data is transmitted, it frees up space in the on-board computer

[Nemoricus]

A better way to improve the grind of science is to make doing science something interesting in its own right, rather than just needing to push a button to get the report for the location. Whether it can be done many times or one, needs time or not, it's still not that interesting as a gameplay mechanic.

However, I'm not sure how to make doing science an interesting gameplay mechanic, rather than just a button you push when you reach a new location. :/

[Sirrobert]

The goal of the transmission penelty is to incite you to bring the module back home. The grind is your own choise. You get rewarded for a return trip

Personally I think we should get rid of the 'multiple transmissions is worth the same as bringing it home' thing, and instead put a hard limit on the science you can get in total by transmitting

[Rocketman1994]

How about science not only giving you points but actually giving you information? Geo, atmospheric, temp, radiation, gravity, etc.

That would make science a lot more fun for me.

[PDCWolf]

I think the actual system is a bit too extreme. You start with this ****ty and badly organized equipment having to send kerbals up and down multiple times (until you realize you can unlock everything by science-ing the KSC), and then when you unlock 2 or 3 science "thingies" you get all the content in a blaze.

The entire system is upside down. You risk kerbals first and then you unlock probes. You get the best antenna with less power consumption (in a game where you can just warp time so time consumption doesn't matter) and later on you get more costly antennas that brick your vessel constantly unless you install a freaking nuclear plant on your craft, BUT HEY THEY TRANSMIT FASTER. You have to go manned first everywhere because it's lighter, then you can go with proves and do real science. By the time you get rovers, they are useless. And if you get them fast, they are still useless because there are no rover-specific tools. Docking means nothing. You get better antennas but that doesn't even matter because you can transmit from Eeloo's far side with the communotron 16 without loss, you can just spam transmit.

At least people discovered that NERVAs are useless because by the time you unlock them you may have already been at least to Duna/Eve.

I understand this is just the first iteration and alpha and all that jazz, but hell, we are experiencing "problems" everyone but squad seemed to predict.

Solutions?

-Implement the already suggested LOS relays (not the full relays because that may be too hard for the main player-base for a default setting)

-Rebalance the antennas using a stat other than speed of transmission.

-Solve the transmission-time-doesn't-warp bug so that you can't have infinite electricity

-Probes and SAS first.

-Differentiate the "science" between categories. Getting better engines from a ground sample from the mun is pretty stupid.

-Make fuel lines something more advanced (getting asparagus after 6/7 flights makes the entire thing way easier)

-Add depth to science. I don't really know how to describe this, but as for now the entire update is a right click to win game. And no, adding another limit such as economics isn't depth, that's just placing more limits and making the game a grind.

Edited October 22, 2013 by PDCWolf

[Wheffle]

I think there needs to be re-balancing, but I don't think we should be making huge changes or jump the gun until the other basic career systems are in-place. A lot of stuff will probably self-balance when you're actually on a budget.

The transmission spamming grind is unrelated to other parts of career mode, I think. That does need to be addressed.

[HafCoJoe]

If you fly a plane for 10 kilometers over the ocean you should get better wings and engines. same as flying high to get ram intakes and similar parts related to efficiency.

If you travel to other planets, more efficient engines should come easier.

If you land on other bodies, better landing gear and chutes!

The science should be specific to what you DO! YOU should choose whether to do specific missions, rather than try to rack up the most "science" in going to atmosphereless planets to get jet engines.

[Sirrobert]

I think the actual system is a bit too extreme. You start with this ****ty and badly organized equipment having to send kerbals up and down multiple times (until you realize you can unlock everything by science-ing the KSC), and then when you unlock 2 or 3 science "thingies" you get all the content in a blaze.

That's exactly how ALL games with upgrade system work...

The entire system is upside down. You risk kerbals first and then you unlock probes.

Manned is more lowtech than remote controlled in here. What game have you been playing up until now? Kerbals don't care about a thing

You have to go manned first everywhere because it's lighter, then you can go with proves and do real science.

So? Remote is more advanced, thus comes later. If you want your kerbals to survive, you have to bring them back. It takes some development before you can send ships on a 1way trip (which is easier) without killing anyone

By the time you get rovers, they are useless. And if you get them fast, they are still useless because there are no rover-specific tools.

Useless how? Roving is fun. And good luck getting a rover to the Mun without advanced parts.

Docking means nothing.

Someone doesn't know he can refuel in space...

You get better antennas but that doesn't even matter because you can transmit from Eeloo's far side with the communotron 16 without loss, you can just spam transmit.

You don't get BETTER antennas, you get OTHER antennas. Just because you don't use it, doesn't mean noone does.

At least people discovered that NERVAs are useless because by the time you unlock them you may have already been at least to Duna/Eve.

Lol. The most effecient engine useless? Just because you are capable of doing it without them, doesn't mean there is no reason to use them. You can bet your ass that I'll replace every stage that opperates in vaccum with NERVAs as soon as I unlock them. Or should we give people the best engine in the entire game right from the start?.

I understand this is just the first iteration and alpha and all that jazz, but hell, we are experiencing "problems" everyone but squad seemed to predict.

Lol, who predicted them and where is it recorded? Actually scrap that. What problems? My first drafts of anything I ever do look awhole lot worse than this

-Implement the already suggested LOS relays (not the full relays because that may be too hard for the main player-base for a default setting)

Nah, that's stupid. Maybe give the antennas a range limit though. Go mod if you want LOS

-Rebalance the antennas using a stat other than speed of transmission.

That's not a suggestion, that's just whining "I don't like this, do something else". A suggestion would suggest WHAT to replace it with. Like my range limit, just above

-Solve the transmission-time-doesn't-warp bug so that you can't have infinite electricity

What bug? The fact that your energy use/buildup increases when you timewarp? That number is per real life second, so ofcourse it increases if a reallife second suddenly resembles 10 kerbal seconds

-Probes and SAS first.

The most basic principle of science is: Go somewhere and look at it. That's exactly what you do when you begin KSP's techtree.

-Differentiate the "science" between categories. Getting better engines from a ground sample from the mun is pretty stupid.

Maybe. A little advanced for the first draft though. Something for later.

-Make fuel lines something more advanced (getting asparagus after 6/7 flights makes the entire thing way easier)

Get modding if you don't like the specifics. I do like it

-Add depth to science. I don't really know how to describe this, but as for now the entire update is a right click to win game. And no, adding another limit such as economics isn't depth, that's just placing more limits and making the game a grind.

Win the game? Win what? If you unlocked everything, you are back into sandbox mode. How exactly is that winning anything, other than bragging rights? Games like this don't have victory conditions

[Sirrobert]

If you fly a plane for 10 kilometers over the ocean you should get better wings and engines. same as flying high to get ram intakes and similar parts related to efficiency.

If you travel to other planets, more efficient engines should come easier.

If you land on other bodies, better landing gear and chutes!

The science should be specific to what you DO! YOU should choose whether to do specific missions, rather than try to rack up the most "science" in going to atmosphereless planets to get jet engines.

That depends on what the science actually gives. Direct data, or is it something you are rewarded for with research budget? Currently, it's the budget

[PDCWolf]

That's exactly how ALL games with upgrade system work...

And?

Manned is more lowtech than remote controlled in here. What game have you been playing up until now? Kerbals don't care about a thing

So, you are trying to tell me that an airtight capsule made with materials that can survive the Gs and heat of a reentry, human-understandable instrumental and that can take a kerbal to space and back is less advanced than a piece of metal that looks at a tape, at another and says "I should burn this way"?. Great reasoning, also, screw the LOLSOKERBALXD stupidity, kerbals are kerbals, not orks.

So? Remote is more advanced, thus comes later. If you want your kerbals to survive, you have to bring them back. It takes some development before you can send ships on a 1way trip (which is easier) without killing anyone

Same as above.

Useless how? Roving is fun. And good luck getting a rover to the Mun without advanced parts.

Fun sure, useless is not debatable. You can just send a static lander and a rover to anything that isn't the mun and it's as useless as it gets.

Someone doesn't know he can refuel in space...

Doesn't have anything to do. By the time you unlock docking you can do about everything there's to be done in the game.

You don't get BETTER antennas, you get OTHER antennas. Just because you don't use it, doesn't mean noone does.

Then put them all in the same tier.

Lol. The most effecient engine useless? Just because you are capable of doing it without them, doesn't mean there is no reason to use them. You can bet your ass that I'll replace every stage that opperates in vaccum with NERVAs as soon as I unlock them.

By the time you unlock them, you can get anywhere and make enough science to unlock the tech tree. Which also shows they are pretty much a useless addition. I didn't mention anything about their placement, I just said that the tree shows how useless they are.

Lol, who predicted them and where is it recorded? Actually scrap that. What problems? My first drafts of anything I ever do look awhole lot worse than this

Look at the comment section on the weeklies when the first pic was shown. Or you can go somewhere else and look where the picture was shown too, like reddit if you are into that.

Nah, that's stupid. Maybe give the antennas a range limit though. Go mod if you want LOS

Realism and/or challenge is stupid, I suppose I should have guessed this one as soon as you wrote "they are kerbals".

That's not a suggestion, that's just whining "I don't like this, do something else". A suggestion would suggest WHAT to replace it with. Like my range limit, just above

It's a suggestion, I didn't specify the replacement, but I'm suggesting for it to be changed.

What bug? The fact that your energy use/buildup increases when you timewarp? That number is per real life second, so ofcourse it increases if a reallife second suddenly resembles 10 kerbal seconds

When you timewarp, electricity generates faster, but the transmission time doesn't move any faster, that means you always regenerate more electricity than what you spend, making it possible to not spend electricity at all.

Try using the 88-88 without timewarp, and then send the same experiment with 100x timewarp. The electricity generation moves faster (as it should) but the transmission speed doesn't.

The most basic principle of science is: Go somewhere and look at it. That's exactly what you do when you begin KSP's techtree.

No, what you do in KSP is GO LOOK AT YOUR OWN FLOOR, YOU CAN UNLOCK ENGINES WITH THE DIRT YOU FIND, which is a pretty stupid principle. You can obviously go suborbital or push it by using shady techniques as booster explosion for staging and go orbital or even beyond.

Maybe. A little advanced for the first draft though. Something for later.

Not advanced for 3 months.

Get modding if you don't like the specifics. I do like it

You like your stuff easy and gamey, and that's ok. Telling someone "I LIKE THIS IF YOU LIKE IT DIFFERENT THEN GO AWAY" is not.

Win the game? Win what? If you unlocked everything, you are back into sandbox mode. How exactly is that winning anything, other than bragging rights? Games like this don't have victory conditions

It's a way of saying "completing the tech tree".

[HafCoJoe]

That depends on what the science actually gives. Direct data, or is it something you are rewarded for with research budget? Currently, it's the budget

Yeah your right. I think that there should be a total budget limit, but also allow people to rack up in specific areas rather than generic points for everything. make it so people can unlock things they want by doing what they want. Don't force people to work in a cubical so they can get something better, let them choose what job they want first.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Avera9eJoe
sounded harsh-ish which wasn't meant :)

[Sirrobert]

I guess we have some very different definitions of the word 'win' than. And of the word 'useless'.

Just because you notice that you can do things without some luxery item, does that make the luxary item useless?

I can get from 1 point to the other with my bike, but that doesn't make my car useless.

[PDCWolf]

I guess we have some very different definitions of the word 'win' than. And of the word 'useless'.

Just because you notice that you can do things without some luxery item, does that make the luxary item useless?

I can get from 1 point to the other with my bike, but that doesn't make my car useless.

Well, let's reword it then.

NERVAs' placement on the tech tree show that they are not the one and only engine for interplanetary travel, and that their fame is only because those poor guys who can't make an interplanetary transfer without it.

Your bike shows that your car is not the ultimate traveling machine and that you can move by cheaper and healthier, although slower, ways.

[maro]

The current model of data gathering is a grind of the worst kind. All it consists of is clicking buttons.

yes.....so boring....

And still no foto camera right now