[1.12.*] Deadly Reentry v7.9.0 The Barbie Edition, Aug 5th, 2021

[RainDreamer]

Pretty sure reentry heat is caused by air compression, not friction. But I don't know how DRE model heat generation.

[Starwaster]

I've a problem with DRE and FAR regarding spaceplanes. When flying above Kerbin around 25-30km with Mach 4-5.2 the temperature increases continuously from ~1100-1300° though eqiuvalent air speed drops from 100m/s to 75m/s. Even if getting higher to 35km temperature increases to ~1450° and seems to be related to mach only. EAS decreases to 55m/s. I´m not sure if it is intended, but which parameters could be affecting this behaviour / can I change? Perhaps I'm wrong assuming, that heat is a result of friction?

Another weird thing... I used an octogonal strut for mounting in the cargobay, and it burned up, though it shoul be shielded?

EAS is useless in this regard. I had to go do the conversions to figure out how fast you were really going. (stock surface speed indicator is fine; that's pretty much what DRE uses)

Aerodynamic heating is mainly caused by air being compressed ahead of the vehicle and is a supersonic phenomenon (which correlation you noted above)

The shockwave temperature in kelvins is equal to your velocity in m/s. It's not really unusual that your plane was heating up as much as it was. You were going even faster than the SR71 Blackbird btw

That said, DRE probably isn't as forgiving of supersonic planes as it should be. You might want to try the beta and be sure to use the Alternate Heating Model setting (technically it's a new difficulty button but it's not meant to be more or less difficult than the default setting. It's just an alternate means of determining heating).

It's a lot more forgiving of supersonic planes to the point that they barely heat up at all.

[funk]

THX for your explanation. I'm already using beta with default and alternating heating model. But I think it might be related to B9s part config. It is only changing maxTemp and your and e.g. MKIVs configs use module heatshield, too. Might this be the culprit? Does DRE check for module heatshield in cfgs, before changing maxtemp to ridiculousmaxTemp or multiplies it, this would explain why the aerobrakes only have 750° maxTemp, though it should be 1500° after B9s config. I noticed the same effect for B9 intakes and adjustable landing gears.

So long story short, what are the correct expressions if patching parts which are related to spaceplanes?

[The Mechanic]

the shockwave temperature in kelvins is equal to your velocity in m/s. It's not really unusual that your plane was heating up as much as it was. You were going even faster than the sr71 blackbird btw

that said, dre probably isn't as forgiving of supersonic planes as it should be. You might want to try the beta and be sure to use the alternate heating model setting (technically it's a new difficulty button but it's not meant to be more or less difficult than the default setting. It's just an alternate means of determining heating).

It's a lot more forgiving of supersonic planes to the point that they barely heat up at all.

Indeed, it is much, much more forgiving. To be honest, it is so forgiving that I'm not even sure it behaves like it should.

Javascript is disabled. View full album

On a side note: Is it just me or does embedding albums from imgur not work with spoiler-tags?

[Starwaster]

THX for your explanation. I'm already using beta with default and alternating heating model. But I think it might be related to B9s part config. It is only changing maxTemp and your and e.g. MKIVs configs use module heatshield, too. Might this be the culprit? Does DRE check for module heatshield in cfgs, before changing maxtemp to ridiculousmaxTemp or multiplies it, this would explain why the aerobrakes only have 750° maxTemp, though it should be 1500° after B9s config. I noticed the same effect for B9 intakes and adjustable landing gears.

So long story short, what are the correct expressions if patching parts which are related to spaceplanes?

The max temp only controls when the part explodes from overheating. If it's set to 500 then the part will explode when it exceeds 500C. It doesn't affect whether they will or won't heat up.

DRE overrides what is in the part's configs when it hits the main menu. If the part exceeds ridiculousMaxTemp then it has its temperature cut in half. if the temperature still exceeds ridiculousMaxTemp then it has its maxTemp set to ridiculousMaxTemp. All that happens after configs are already processed.

You can't have the settings at both Default and Alternate Heating Model. It's a selection between the 5 buttons available. Make sure that it Alternate Heating Model is actually clicked then close the menu. You might also want to delete custom.cfg if you made any changes to the in-game menus.

Indeed, it is much, much more forgiving. To be honest, it is so forgiving that I'm not even sure it behaves like it should.

http://imgur.com/a/BZs9d

On a side note: Is it just me or does embedding albums from imgur not work with spoiler-tags?

No, it does not behave realistically with regards to aircraft when the AHM is enabled. It's somewhat more realistic regarding reentry speed high altitude vehicles because it uses a formula from the FAA site where heat flux was determined empirically. (for certain values of 'more realistic' )

To be honest, the effect on lower altitude low-supersonic aircraft was unintended but it's something I (as a modder and tech support agent) can live with because the overheating of aircraft never contributed to a proper game experience for players. It only ever produced support requests, as did rockets overheating in the mid-stages of their launches. (that too is greatly reduced by the beta's new model).

I don't recall seeing any issues with Imgur albums and spoilers. I'm pretty sure they work. I tried just now with your album using BZs9d and it did not work, but the IMGUR tag didnt work with BZs9d anyway. So that's not really a valid IMGUR album tag.... apparently?

Edited March 13, 2015 by Starwaster

[The Mechanic]

No, it does not behave realistically with regards to aircraft when the AHM is enabled. It's somewhat more realistic regarding reentry speed high altitude vehicles because it uses a formula from the FAA site where heat flux was determined empirically. (for certain values of 'more realistic' )

To be honest, the effect on lower altitude low-supersonic aircraft was unintended but it's something I (as a modder and tech support agent) can live with because the overheating of aircraft never contributed to a proper game experience for players. It only ever produced support requests, as did rockets overheating in the mid-stages of their launches. (that too is greatly reduced by the beta's new model).

I'm not complaining, after all I switched to alternate because default was burning away struts, batteries, docking ports and similar stuff. And huge wing assemblies without struts are just horrible.

I don't recall seeing any issues with Imgur albums and spoilers. I'm pretty sure they work. I tried just now with your album using BZs9d and it did not work, but the IMGUR tag didnt work with BZs9d anyway. So that's not really a valid IMGUR album tag.... apparently?

I was only able to add it to the post after deleting and recreating the album. When I placed it in a spoiler it was black with some residues of the imgur GUI but no images. Now it appears to work though, no idea what was going on there.

[impyre]

I'm having problems with the 2.5m heatshield not showing up in-game. I'm running DRE 6.40. On inspection, I noticed some significant differences between the part cfgs for the 2.5 and for the other sizes. I made a new copy of the 2.5m heatshield and modified its cfg to look more like the others... the new test copy does indeed appear in the tech tree, can be purchased and used in the VAB. The connection points aren't quite right, and the textures are all mangled for some reason, but at least it shows up. Is there a solution for this? Is anyone else having this problem?

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I looked into the dev version's 2.5m heat shield part cfg file, and it doesn't seem to be any better than the current one.

[Starwaster]

I'm having problems with the 2.5m heatshield not showing up in-game. I'm running DRE 6.40. On inspection, I noticed some significant differences between the part cfgs for the 2.5 and for the other sizes. I made a new copy of the 2.5m heatshield and modified its cfg to look more like the others... the new test copy does indeed appear in the tech tree, can be purchased and used in the VAB. The connection points aren't quite right, and the textures are all mangled for some reason, but at least it shows up. Is there a solution for this? Is anyone else having this problem?

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I looked into the dev version's 2.5m heat shield part cfg file, and it doesn't seem to be any better than the current one.

Not enough information to go by. It doesn't seem to me that you're describing a shield that comes with this mod. (doesn't show up properly... mangled textures, 'connection points' wrong)

I need logs and screenshots because frankly I don't have a clue what ou're experiencing.

[impyre]

Not enough information to go by. It doesn't seem to me that you're describing a shield that comes with this mod. (doesn't show up properly... mangled textures, 'connection points' wrong)

I need logs and screenshots because frankly I don't have a clue what ou're experiencing.

..... What did I say that confused you? Take a look in the mod's part folders. It's there... it just doesn't work.

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DRE has always had the 2.5m heat shield, it's the part that goes on the mark 1-2 command pod. (For some reason, they didn't add the heatshield to the mark 1-2 in stock like they did the mark 1 pod)

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Here's the cfg file for the part in question, it can be found in the 6.40 version, and the .53 dev version (as I said earlier)

PART

{

// --- general parameters ---

name = 2.5_Heatshield

module = Part

author = nhnifong

// --- asset parameters ---

//mesh = model.mu

MODEL

{

model=DeadlyReentry/Parts/deadlyReentry_2.5Heatshield/model

position = 0.0, -0.1, 0.0

// bnode of shield was at 0.05*1.3=0.065

// tnode of shield was at 0.145*1.3=.1885

scale = 1.3, 1.3, 1.3

rotation = 0, 0, 0

}

scale = 1

rescaleFactor = 1.0

// --- node definitions ---

// definition format is Position X, Position Y, Position Z, Up X, Up Y, Up Z

//node_stack_bottom = 0.0, 0.05, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 2

//node_stack_top = 0.0, 0.145, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 2

node_stack_bottom = 0.0, -0.035, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 2

node_stack_top = 0.0, 0.0885, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 2

// --- FX definitions ---

fx_gasBurst_white = 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, decouple

sound_decoupler_fire = decouple

// --- editor parameters ---

cost = 77

category = Structural

subcategory = 0

TechRequired = specializedControl

entryCost = 4200

title = Heat Shield for Mk 1-2 Pod

manufacturer = Missing Parts Co.

description = Apparently this was originally supposed to be delivered with the Mk 1-2 Pod, but it slipped between the seats.

// attachment rules: stack, srfAttach, allowStack, allowSrfAttach, allowCollision

attachRules = 1,0,1,1,0

// --- standard part parameters ---

mass = 0.06

dragModelType = default

maximum_drag = 0.1

minimum_drag = 0.1

angularDrag = 2

crashTolerance = 9

maxTemp = 1800

breakingForce = 630

breakingTorque = 630

MODULE

{

name = ModuleHeatShield

direction = 0, -1, 0 // bottom of pod

reflective = 0.05 // 5% of heat is ignored at correct angle

ablative = AblativeShielding

conductivity = 0.01

loss

{ // loss is based on the shockwave temperature (also based on density)

key = 650 0 0 0 // start ablating at 650 degrees C

key = 1000 320 0 0 // peak ablation at 1000 degrees C

key = 3000 400 0 0 // max ablation at 3000 degrees C

}

dissipation

{ // dissipation is based on the part's current temperature

key = 300 0 0 0 // begin dissipating at 300 degrees C

key = 500 90 0 0 // maximum dissipation at 500 degrees C

}

}

RESOURCE

{

name = AblativeShielding

amount = 1000

maxAmount = 1000

}

MODULE

{

name = ModuleDecouple

ejectionForce = 80

//explosiveNodeID = top

isOmniDecoupler = true

staged = true

}

}

Edited March 14, 2015 by impyre

[Starwaster]

..... What did I say that confused you? Take a look in the mod's part folders. It's there... it just doesn't work.

- - - Updated - - -

DRE has always had the 2.5m heat shield, it's the part that goes on the mark 1-2 command pod. (For some reason, they didn't add the heatshield to the mark 1-2 in stock like they did the mark 1 pod)

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Here's the cfg file for the part in question, it can be found in the 6.40 version, and the .53 dev version (as I said earlier)

It's not that you're confusing me, it's that the behavior you're describing isn't consistent with any of DRE's shields.

This is DRE's 2.5m shield. I just researched it in a career game and I just installed it on a Mk1-2 Pod.

So either you're using a different shield or you have a mod conflict. Ren's stock revamp perhaps, but the DRE 2.5m shield is working as it should in the absence of any interference and without any editing of its files required.

[impyre]

Aww crap. Well now I guess I get to figure out what the problem is. Thanks for your patience (and efforts with this mod).

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I think I know what happened. I didn't install it correctly. I unzipped it and 7zip extracted it into a folder structure like ~\gamedata\deadly reentry 6.40\deadly reentry\. The problem with that is that the 2.5m heatshield cfg file contains a reference to its model that needs the path to be correct... so it just wasn't loading at all. But it seems to be the only part affected by this.

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Yep, that fixed it. I also discovered that the .625m heat shield is also affected by the incorrect install. I just didn't miss it because it wasn't part of DRE last time I played.

[Starwaster]

Aww crap. Well now I guess I get to figure out what the problem is. Thanks for your patience (and efforts with this mod).

- - - Updated - - -

I think I know what happened. I didn't install it correctly. I unzipped it and 7zip extracted it into a folder structure like ~\gamedata\deadly reentry 6.40\deadly reentry\. The problem with that is that the 2.5m heatshield cfg file contains a reference to its model that needs the path to be correct... so it just wasn't loading at all. But it seems to be the only part affected by this.

- - - Updated - - -

Yep, that fixed it. I also discovered that the .625m heat shield is also affected by the incorrect install. I just didn't miss it because it wasn't part of DRE last time I played.

Ok, so I should have thought about the possibility of an improper installation.. I'll remember that next time.

[stevehead]

RSS should work for 6.4x but might the ablation metric tweaked if you feel that you have too much left at the end of a reentry. (it will burn off less than a standard RSS reentry)

Using DRE 6.5.3 (RSS config setting) with 6.4x RSS here. The heating seems about right (exposed parts are being destroyed as expected during reentry) and during launch ascent, I'm not having any heating issues, but I cannot get the ablative shielding to decrease during reentry (at most I have lost 1 unit of 250 units of ablative shielding). I have not tested with high velocity reentries (such as a return from the Mun/interplanetary), only LKO returns, but even then I feel that there should be more heat shield loss than 0 or 1 unit. I've tried adjusting the ablation metric as suggested (tried the default 0.008 and gradually increased to 2), but without any effect. Does the rate of loss increase with larger ablation metric values? And also, do the settings apply during flight or do I need to reload the scene?

[AccidentalDisassembly]

Using DRE 6.5.3 (RSS config setting) with 6.4x RSS here. The heating seems about right (exposed parts are being destroyed as expected during reentry) and during launch ascent, I'm not having any heating issues, but I cannot get the ablative shielding to decrease during reentry (at most I have lost 1 unit of 250 units of ablative shielding). I have not tested with high velocity reentries (such as a return from the Mun/interplanetary), only LKO returns, but even then I feel that there should be more heat shield loss than 0 or 1 unit. I've tried adjusting the ablation metric as suggested (tried the default 0.008 and gradually increased to 2), but without any effect. Does the rate of loss increase with larger ablation metric values? And also, do the settings apply during flight or do I need to reload the scene?

Dunno if this is helpful, but I also had very little reduction in the heat shield on reentry - but then I "tried" (oops!) dropping a capsule nearly straight down at 2000ish m/s (I think). Lots more (but still not a whole lot) burned off then - Purely a guess, but maybe temps just don't get as high with this newer version, but the ablative shielding still burns off at the same rate given a particular temperature...? Dunno. I didn't fiddle with any numbers, just a straight install.

[Starwaster]

Using DRE 6.5.3 (RSS config setting) with 6.4x RSS here. The heating seems about right (exposed parts are being destroyed as expected during reentry) and during launch ascent, I'm not having any heating issues, but I cannot get the ablative shielding to decrease during reentry (at most I have lost 1 unit of 250 units of ablative shielding). I have not tested with high velocity reentries (such as a return from the Mun/interplanetary), only LKO returns, but even then I feel that there should be more heat shield loss than 0 or 1 unit. I've tried adjusting the ablation metric as suggested (tried the default 0.008 and gradually increased to 2), but without any effect. Does the rate of loss increase with larger ablation metric values? And also, do the settings apply during flight or do I need to reload the scene?

Yes, increasing ablation metric increases loss rate.

What reentry speed were you at?

Also, delete custom.cfg and try again.

[stevehead]

Reentry speed was typical orbital speed for 6.4x: about 6.1 km/s. I tried both shallow (120km x 50 km) and steep (120 km x -60 km) reentries, the latter was the only one that caused ablative shielding loss (ended with 249 of 250). When I get a chance later, I'll try deleting the custom.cfg file and let you know my results.

[stevehead]

Alright, I made no changes to the game in any way (no mod additions, removals, settings changes, etc.), except I deleted the custom.cfg file as suggested and I made sure DRE was set to RSS config afterwards. Here are my observations now:

1) The first few launches were having some significant increase in time between frames from physics calculations during launch of new rockets (1 in-game second was about 2.5 seconds of real-time). This started around Mach 1 with the atmospheric FX starting, and ended when I was getting out of the thick of the atmosphere around (60 km). Not sure if it had something to do with DRE or FAR since it started around the time FAR's Mach calculations would have started. This problem randomly went away after a few launches (although I was using the same spacecraft for testing).

2) When launching a rocket, I started to receive heating FX on ascent (which I wasn't before deleting the config): starts at about 42km up, surface speed 1150 m/s, acceleration at 27.59 m/s^2; went away around 60 km. The temperature of the parts bearing the brunt of the heating (the LES and command pod) only got as high as 10 deg C during this.

3) Reentry heating FX now starts as soon as I hit the atmosphere at ~90 km, when before it was starting around 75 km.

4) Still hardly any ablative shielding loss on reentry. I increased the metric to 0.1 and only had 1 unit loss.

Just for clarification, when I first installed DRE, all I did was set the config to RSS and adjusted the ablative metric before my first post on the issue. Then, at your suggestion I deleted the custom.cfg file; I then set the config setting to RSS, and saw issues 1-3 with no further changes. I'm still seeing issues 2 & 3 with the adjusted ablative metric. I'll try a clean install of DRE and let you know more of what I find.

EDIT: So the new issues I was having, it turns out that when I delete the custom.cfg file, DRE generates a custom.cfg that is different from what comes with DRE initially...

From the original install in the ZIP file:

@REENTRY_EFFECTS[RSS]:FINAL
{
    @shockwaveExponent = 1
    @shockwaveMultiplier = 1
    @heatMultiplier = 1
    @ablationMetric = 0.008
    @dissipationMetric = 0.01
    @startThermal = 750
    @fullThermal = 1250
    @afxDensityExponent = 0.75
    @temperatureExponent = 1
    @densityExponent = 1
    @gToleranceMult = 6
    @parachuteTempMult = 0.25
    @crewGKillChance = 0.01
    @parachuteDifficulty = 0.8
    @crewGClamp = 30
    @crewGPower = 4
    @crewGMin = 5
    @crewGWarn = 450000
    @crewGLimit = 900000
    @dissipationCap = True
}

From what was generated after clicking the debug display:

@REENTRY_EFFECTS[RSS]:FINAL
{
    @shockwaveExponent = 1
    @shockwaveMultiplier = 1
    @heatMultiplier = 1
    @ablationMetric = 0.004
    @dissipationMetric = 0.01
    @startThermal = 750
    @fullThermal = 1250
    @afxDensityExponent = 0.65
    @temperatureExponent = 1
    @densityExponent = 1
    @gToleranceMult = 6
    @parachuteTempMult = 0.25
    @crewGKillChance = 0.01
    @parachuteDifficulty = 0.8
    @crewGClamp = 30
    @crewGPower = 4
    @crewGMin = 5
    @crewGWarn = 225000
    @crewGLimit = 450000
    @dissipationCap = True
}

Edited March 18, 2015 by stevehead

[Starwaster]

What part is this, the Mk1 pod? (guessing it is since it has 250 ablative)

What temperature is it getting up to?

[stevehead]

Sorry, I should have been more specific. Yes, it is the Mk1 pod. Also tried with the K2 Pod (http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/104925-0-90-K2-Command-Pod-Two-Kerbal-stock-alike-pod) but having the same issue (it has 300 ablative).

I did a reentry from a 120km x 13km orbit: max temperature was 718 deg C, at 55km altitude, 4.8 km/s speed, and ~2 g. I also noticed at max g's (5 g), the temperature was only 219 deg C; this was about 33km up, going 1.8 km/s. This seems a bit odd to me, since I figured max temperature would occur relatively close to max deceleration. I was skimming the following PDF:

https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/designees_delegations/designee_types/ame/media/Section%20III.4.1.7%20Returning%20from%20Space.pdf

It looks like most of the examples have max heating rates very near max deceleration; since these are rates, it would suggest that the spacecraft would continue to heat up even after max g's, but not as much. I would guess at some point this heating rate would be negated by heat being radiated into the air, which would be the point that the spacecraft begins to cool down. I don't know. I do have a science degree (biochemistry) with a good bit of physics knowledge, but I am obviously no expert on this subject, so I apologize if I'm not thinking correctly here.

[Starwaster]

IRL, max heating typically occurs somewhere between 60-80km altitude. 6.4x is closer to Earth than it is to Kerbin so 55km isn't unreasonable as far as altitude goes.

As far as the low temps, I just noticed something peculiar in the RSS config bit that you posted. The entry for useAlternateHeatModel is missing from that config node. Playing around with it, it seems like there's a bug where it's possible for it NOT to write that setting to the custom file. However, that doesn't seem to be impairing it and the game still treats it as enabled. (probably because that's what I set the default to. It has to explicitly encounter it in the settings file as False)

Still, try another reentry right when you're going to hit atmo, open up the DRE menu and make sure (while RSS is enabled of course) that Alternate Heating Model is enabled. (has a green light next to it)

Maybe even disable then enable it again.

Edit: BTW, the graph in that document you cited has the altitude for peak reentry heating all wrong. I don't know if they left off a zero for each of the altitudes but that's the only way Figure 4.1.7-15 makes any sense.

(I'm familiar with that site; I used it to produce DRE's new heating model and I noticed that discrepancy awhile back)

Edited March 19, 2015 by Starwaster

[Luten]

Question. Why central of mass for 6.25m heatshield is here?

I think it should be like here - for 3.75m

Why I ask? Because there is problem when try to entry to the atmosphere. Ship just roll (wrong central of mass). Increase the Lead Ballast do nothing.

Edit:

Change from:

CoMOffset = 0.0, 3.0, 0.0

To:

CoMOffset = 0.0, -1.2, 0.0

fix that problem and even now lead ballast works as it should

Edited March 22, 2015 by Luten
addon

[Starwaster]

Question. Why central of mass for 6.25m heatshield is here?

http://i.imgur.com/AB6VXqNm.jpg

I think it should be like here - for 3.75m

http://i.imgur.com/R2AoWS6m.jpg

Why I ask? Because there is problem when try to entry to the atmosphere. Ship just roll (wrong central of mass). Increase the Lead Ballast do nothing.

Edit:

Change from:

CoMOffset = 0.0, 3.0, 0.0

To:

CoMOffset = 0.0, -1.2, 0.0

fix that problem and even now lead ballast works as it should

That looks like something I was experimenting with that wasn't supposed to go in.

It is deliberate though and the reason is that drag is exerted from a part's center of gravity. That's why a single part will always maintain orientation regardless of where its CoM is. So the purpose was to try to move the drag point for the part closer to the vehicle's (as a whole) center of mass and it works in stock KSP. Are you using FAR or NEAR? (I'd guess NEAR since I don't see a FAR menu item in your toolbar?)

[Luten]

Are you using FAR or NEAR?

None of them.

I never had any problems with the other heatshield, only with 6.25m there is problem. As I mentioned before, after edit CoMOffset line in part.cfg for this heatshield the problem was gone.

[Starwaster]

None of them.

I never had any problems with the other heatshield, only with 6.25m there is problem. As I mentioned before, after edit CoMOffset line in part.cfg for this heatshield the problem was gone.

Can you give me an example then of a craft that this happens with? Because it doesn't happen to me with stock aero using any of the test vehicles that I've tested with.

(preferably stock + DRE parts if it's a craft file. Or a picture of it in the VAB so I can recreate it in stock)

[Luten]

The problem is with this pod. (I sent it to Eeloo - landing on surface and back to Kerbin.)

It's not problem with docking port because after I removed them the problem still is.

btw. I'm using BTSM + Deadly Reentry.

craft file if you need: http://www./download/658jhccat13yao8/Pod+6_25m+heatshield.craft

Edited March 22, 2015 by Luten