[1.1.3] AntennaRange 1.11.4 - Enforce and Encourage Antenna Diversity

[rottielover]

so you're saying "yo dawg, I hear you like patches, so I patched a patch to patch your patch so that you can patch your patch" ? couldn't resist... I shall go sacrifice 10 kerbals now

[Kesselya]

so you're saying "yo dawg, I hear you like patches, so I patched a patch to patch your patch so that you can patch your patch" ? couldn't resist... I shall go sacrifice 10 kerbals now

Yep.

Or more accurately, "Hey, friendly Mod Maker. I love your patch, and I tried to tweak it, but failed miserably. If you could help me out, I'd be greatly obliged and will have my Kerbals bake you cookies."

[toadicus]

You forgot "while patching patches."

[A9p]

You are both stars, I can't wait to use those dishes with Antennarange on my satelites

[Mecripp]

toadicus In careen mode and using line of sight, I'm out of range and can still send reports and get Science points the Antenna stay down but the Science still goes ?

[toadicus]

I'm not able to duplicate that at this point... I took a probe with a medium dish out past Kerbin's SOI and I wasn't able to transmit anything or get science for anything, as far as I can tell. Can you get me any more info on specifically what's happening in your case?

[BudgetHedgehog]

I made some up to date screenshots for the OP because I was tired of the pre-0.23 screenshots already there. Thought it might be nice to update them to the latest everything.

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[Mecripp]

I made some up to date screenshots for the OP because I was tired of the pre-0.23 screenshots already there. Thought it might be nice to update them to the latest everything.

http://imgur.com/a/k3ZH1

How did you get your nav ball over there ?

[BudgetHedgehog]

How did you get your nav ball over there ?

Enhanced Navball, yo.

[toadicus]

Thanks! OP updated. If you're feeling artsy again and want to get a shot with the UI showing the AntennaRange toolbar or applauncher icon, that'd be awesome.

[BudgetHedgehog]

Thanks! OP updated. If you're feeling artsy again and want to get a shot with the UI showing the AntennaRange toolbar or applauncher icon, that'd be awesome.

Of course, leave it with me

[smunisto]

Hey, toadicus, I just installed your little gem of a mod. It makes me so happy that someone decided to implement a real distinction between the antennas in the game.

I have dabbled with RemoteTech before, but unfortunately it passes my "Too much work, not enough fun" line and falls into the category of such mods.

I will admit I have not launched any craft with your mod yet, so I may have missed it, but:

Would it be possible to add visible lines/conical figures(complying with the transmit/receive degree spread from the antenna) within the Map view?

From what I got, not it just pops up an error if you have no receivers in range. I think it would make the mod easier to use, while at the same time keeping the simplicity of operations it offers.

And I have two more questions, for anyone who might answer(apologies if they have been answered before):

Is it possible to make networks of sats? A simple example - Mun stationary orbit satellites. Can a craft on the far side of the Mun transmit data if it is in direct view of a satellite in orbit over the Mun, which is in direct view of Kerbin?

How long can such a chain be, is it limited by the code, or I can chain it all the way from Eeloo(we are ignoring the current antenna ranges completely, for the sake of the question)?

And last question:

What does the "Fudge" percentage option do? Is it antenna angle spread, failure rate or something else?

[BudgetHedgehog]

Is it possible to make networks of sats? A simple example - Mun stationary orbit satellites. Can a craft on the far side of the Mun transmit data if it is in direct view of a satellite in orbit over the Mun, which is in direct view of Kerbin?

How long can such a chain be, is it limited by the code, or I can chain it all the way from Eeloo(we are ignoring the current antenna ranges completely, for the sake of the question)?

And last question:

What does the "Fudge" percentage option do? Is it antenna angle spread, failure rate or something else?

Comms networks are indeed possible and highly recommended (if you select the Require Line Of Sight option). 3 caveats: 1, antennas on vessels labelled debris won't be taken into account, 2, electric charge usage isn't taken into account on the relaying antenna and 3, you can't have a Comms 16 out near Eeloo and hope a Comms 88 on Kerbin picks up your transmission, the Comms 88 needs to be on your craft (in other words, make sure there is an antenna capable of phoning home within current transmission distance). As far as I know, there's no limit on the chain, but I haven't tested this much.

The Fudge percentage is how much leeway you're given if the antenna gets blocked by a celestial body by pretending the body is X% smaller than it actually is.

Edited May 6, 2015 by ObsessedWithKSP

[toadicus]

smunisto, I've discussed the "pretty lines" feature a few times in the past, but it's been a while so now's probably a good time to bring it up again. Simply put, I don't see what value a "pretty lines" system adds to this mod. Unlike RemoteTech, antennas are not limited in communicating with just one other antenna, so it isn't really relevant in the same way. A system of lines showing connections doesn't show you the reasons that you don't have a connection, which in my view is generally the more-relevant information.

Opening this up for discussion to the users in general: if you like the idea of a "pretty lines" feature in map mod, what data do you see it communicating, and how do you see that as valuable information to users?

ObsessedWithKSP, thanks for fielding the other questions and generally being awesome.

[Mecripp]

Lines that are colourized has the connection they have ( Green or yellow or red but to me red or no line for reds ) ( and how do you see that as valuable information to users ) something we can see and would like and puts are little minds to rest

EDIT- Then we can see if are connection is taking the shorts path lol or the long way home

[toadicus]

I dusted off my old pretty-lines code and it looks like it still works at least as well as it did. I'm pretty sure I remember this crashing things sometimes... gonna have to see if I can make that happen again. I can show green and yellow lines for connections, but there's no good way to show "no connection", which is part of my complaint. When would I show a red line? To every possible receiver? Just to receivers that are in range, but blocked? How many such receivers; all of them, or just the closest? I could theoretically do red lines for the closest connection that is in range, but blocked; I think I've got that data available. But to keep performance up, I intentionally don't calculate connection stats for connections that aren't the most ideal.

I've got to admit... it is fun to look at.

And now, for something completely different.

This is a whole different topic, but what would people think about using additive ranges for antennas, and cutting the big dish antenna range considerably? This would have one primary effect, and I'm considering it for a specific reason.

Basically, this would let you extend the range of a smaller but more distant antenna using a closer antenna. For example, you could send an orbital probe with a whip antenna to Mun as long as you had reasonably coverage over Kerbin with probes using medium dishes.

This would also let you send a mission to a distant planet, knowing that you won't be able to talk to it when it gets there... unless you get your science in gear and launch some Big Dish antennas before it finishes the trip.

I'm considering this particularly for the latter reason, in view of the point at which Squad starts offering contracts to Duna. I basically always get contracts to Duna long before I actually have the Electronics tech you need for the big dish. This means I can't even start the mission -- at least not if I want to get science for it, or if the mission requires science from Duna, or if I'm using "no probe control without connection".

In general, because of the huge differences between the antennas (since there's only three), I don't think this would change gameplay very much. The primary play change I'm thinking about is making the jump from medium dish to big dish less extreme, e.g.:

Communotron 16 -- Increase range to half of Kerbin's SOI, so it can be used for Minmus probes if you put a comsat with at least another Communotron 16 in orbit first.

Comms DTS -- Increase range to half of Duna's SMA + half of Kerbin's SMA. This would let the DTS be used for all "inner system" missions -- again, if you put at least another DTS in orbit first.

Communotron 88-88 -- Change range to something like 3/4 of Eeloo's SMA. This will reduce the overall range (currently about 2× Eeloo's SMA) when used in conjunction with another, and will require you to use another 88-88 nearer Kerbin to relay the signal. We could extend the range with ModuleManager magic when we detect the Outer Planets mod.

Edited May 6, 2015 by toadicus
Added video link.

[dudecon]

...A system of lines showing connections doesn't show you the reasons that you don't have a connection, which in my view is generally the more-relevant information.

Opening this up for discussion to the users in general: if you like the idea of a "pretty lines" feature in map mod, what data do you see it communicating, and how do you see that as valuable information to users?

In my mind, the useful information I'm looking for is:

What is my "nominal" and max transmission range?

What (if anything) is occluding my transmission?

A colorcode sound useful for this:

Green lines for valid chains back to Kerbin.

Yellow and red lines for invalid links.

For links that are out of range, yellow line for the portion that is within range, and red line for the portion that is out of range.

(Maybe yellow for up to the "nominal" transmission range, and orange up to the maximum)

For links that are occluded, yellow up to the surface of the occluding body, and red continuing to the occluded target.

That kind of thing would be really helpful to see where the antenna is trying to transmit to, as well as foreseeing when the link will go down, and when it will come back up.

... What would people think about using additive ranges for antennas, and cutting the big dish antenna range considerably? This would have one primary effect, and I'm considering it for a specific reason.

... I basically always get contracts to Duna long before I actually have the Electronics tech you need for the big dish. This means I can't even start the mission -- at least not if I want to get science for it, or if the mission requires science from Duna, or if I'm using "no probe control without connection".

There are two ways I can see this going. One is to link the Tracking Station upgrades with higher gain recievers, so you essentially add to the length of the kerbin reception distance as you upgrade the tracking station. The other way would be to give Kerbin the highest tech antenna that you have researched, implying that the KSP has a distributed network of listening posts with current technology. Either way would help, without the need to put comsats up, though you could reduce the effect for kerbin with the excuse of atmospheric attenuation. Edited May 6, 2015 by dudecon

[toadicus]

dudecon, what would be the endpoint of such lines? Vessels that are out of range have literally all active vessels and Kerbin as potential targets. Would I draw each of them? Just the otherwise-most-ideal target?

I cull all of the out-of-range targets very early during pathfinding to cut down on the amount of expensive operations I need to do. If I know I can't talk to something, I don't bother asking if it, in turn, can talk to anything. Since occlusion is a separate system, I can know both the best in-range target and the first occluding body. I'd need to revise things quite a bit to show lines for out-of-range targets.

[dudecon]

Well, range is usually a bigger deal than occlusion (since orbiting generally fixes occlusion problems faster than range). So, if out of range, draw range data (ignoring occlusion). If in range, draw occlusion data (if pertinent). I'm not sure how your com-network optimization code works, so I can't really say what will be easier to code, or if the "otherwise-most-ideal target" even means anything in this context. You might need to do a backward search (from Kerbin outward, instead of from the vessel to Kerbin) in order to find an optimal target.

[smunisto]

My proposition for the "Pretty lines" project:

Green line - active connection currently, goes all the way from the source of the signal to Kerbin.

Notes: Depending on overhead for calculations and time to implement required can be shown for active vessel only/all vessels with antennas and something to transmit(i.e. not active for just a probe with an antenna, like most of the satellite contracts)/toggle-able option for active vessel only/all vessels with antennas and something to transmit. Again depending on resource utilization - needs balancing for checks per unit of time

Yellow line - If no active connection is possible right now, but was/will be in the future - nearest possible connection that would be used when(and in case) it comes within LoS again.

Notes: Depending on overhead for calculations may be too resource intensive to calculate future craft coming in range, so most likely should only calculate for signal re-translation craft within antenna range, but currently out of LoS. Example: A retranslation satellite which is orbiting the Mun, but is currently out of line of sight of your active vessel.

The no-red-line-but-red-marker-on-vessel-thingy: I propose no active red lines, there is no actual use for them in my proposed system. Instead an all-vessels/active vessel marker should be shown above the actual vessel icon within map view.

Notes: I even have a picture in my mind regarding how the icon should look: https://bg3.biz/cloud/public.php?service=files&t=AhsQRQpbsK36UeK

Crudely drawn, but with transparent background. Blinking above active/any vessel with no active connection.

Perhaps if implementing lines is already done as code, putting an icon over the vessel icon instead of drawing a line should not be hard.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Additive antenna range:

All up for it. But perhaps people come here for the simplicity, so maybe do it as something of an "Antenna Diversity +" menu option, or even a separate download.I was planning to download some of the old packs containing antenna models(maybe I will even check up with RT and see if its license permits it), making the textures dds, fixing the CFGs and using them as additional diversity for antennas, which I would tweak to my tastes. By initial calculations this would mean about 1-2 more antennas. One to go between 88-88 and DTS and one to go after 88-88, after I reduce the range of 88-88 further to make it more of a retranslation choice, rather than "Send one to Duna, cover Eeloo" thing.

[Fraz86]

When would I show a red line?

Perhaps you could show red lines only when a vessel has no connection. I propose showing red lines for two "potential" connections (when a vessel has no connection):

1. The closest out-of-range non-occluded receiver, with some graphical indication of how far your maximum range extends along the line.

2. The least occluded in-range receiver. That is, the receiver which is closest to not being occluded.

[Mecripp]

O pretty lines would be kerbal dance time looking good

[ManuxKerb]

Hi

I just wanted to ask, what Antennaes do work with this mod (obviously the stock ones) but there was some chatter about Origami Antennas and Remote tech 2 ones.

I would like to use a small dishy one like this: https://imgur.com/a/4vMoK#9

Or a big one like: https://imgur.com/a/6TtKc#1

So wich one do work ? How do i install them so that they work with AR (and NOT RemotTech) ?

Thanks for medium detailed explanation!

ManuxKerb

Edited May 6, 2015 by ManuxKerb

[Mecripp]

Hi

I just wanted to ask, what Antennaes do work with this mod (obviously the stock ones) but there was some chatter about Origami Antennas and Remote tech 2 ones.

So wich one do work ? How do i install them so that they work with AR (and NOT RemotTech) ?

Thanks for medium detailed explanation!

ManuxKerb

Have a look https://github.com/Mecripp/Kerbal-AntennaRange-All-In-1_Patch/blob/master/AntennaRange%20Patches

[Hyomoto]

Well, you could draw a red line to the last good connection or like you said connection in range but lack line of sight, but since they are just showing a lack of connection, I agree with smunisto where you could simply indicate receivers that have no connection with an icon instead. The green lines could indicate a two-way connection where both transmitters are within range of each other where yellow would indicate a one way connection. Could be useful for data that travels in one way, such as requiring a connection to (or two-way connection) for probes, but returning science being okay as a one way transmission.