(OLD) The Ultimate Jool-5 Challenge:land Kerbals on all moons and return in one big mission

[Ziv]

Here is a pic of the offending airlock unit. It can hold eight, (8!?!) kerbals. Anyone using it to cheat should be hung drawn and quartered. (This is the rectangular part, attached to a 1 kerbal 1.25m hull part).

https://moc-per.micromine.com/owncloud/public.php?service=files&t=0fc49b8b0859c36ce958a6e881f3ae21&download

Agreed.

[Ziv]

BTW if I would have time I would write this to the LLL forum but I'm overloaded with work these days...

[SSSPutnik]

I'm actually about to do that Ziv. Seems like a weird design flaw.. The actual cabin spaces are realistic, it's just the doors and hatches that aren't.

I also have a drag issue with a part I need to chat to them about too so...

[SSSPutnik]

I'm thinking of implementing infernal robotics and make the engine mounts rotate backwards in space solving the CoM-problem...

But this will take a while

I have been experimenting a bit with these sorts of craft. Found that SAS, lot's of SAS, helps! Why not use nukes? Low gimbal range?

Yeah those Kethane drills are HEAVY!

[Ogre]

Vall landing down, just Pol, Bop and home to go! More pictures in my main post, but I noticed this on the science module I took to Vall:

That small cubic strut at a weird angle isn't supposed to be there. It's NOT there on the other three "identical" science modules I brought (nor on the slightly different one for Laythe). I guess some construction workers at the VAB left a piece of scaffolding behind. Because I don't think I used this part on purpose anywhere for this build, not even on the lifter.

[SSSPutnik]

I had a similar issue on my first Jool mission.

Detached a tank, but a tank adapter somehow stay "attached" to my ship for the rest of the mission. When I say attached I mean floating in empty space next to my ship.

Unlike yours it WAS part of the craft though.

[JedTech]

I've completed my Jool Mission!

I'm submitting for JEBEDIAH'S LEVEL

(0.23, MechJeb, Kethane, KAS, 4 Launches for assembly, No refueling needed, 5 Kerbals (2:Science Lab, 2:Mk2Landercan, 1:Mk1Landercan), Science Lab, All purpose Lander, 2 Moon Tugs, I left 1 Moon Tug in Laythe orbit for Kethane mapping, 12,683 science points (collected high/near/highatmos/lowatmos/surface science readings from all moons). Brought base back to land the Lab as per Ziv's request. Not an easy piece of equipment to land!

Pictures!

See the Title and Descriptions to read more about my mission story.

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Edited March 13, 2014 by JedTech
no refueling needed

[Speeding Mullet]

I'm actually about to do that Ziv. Seems like a weird design flaw.. The actual cabin spaces are realistic, it's just the doors and hatches that aren't.

I also have a drag issue with a part I need to chat to them about too so...

I could be wrong but I think with the LLL habitation modules (large rectangular ones) you couldn't do an EVA, only store the Kerbals, so the solution was the tardis hatch. I hope that's not the same as the cylinder style ones otherwise I have no way of getting my crew into the return to Kerbin vehicle.

Ziv - thanks for the clarification on points!

jmanibd - Congratulations, I thought it was a very nice solution, and the lander was pretty awesome. Nice images too, did you fly all the way round Pol? I just about managed it!

I've started flying and writing on the fly my mission report for the Kethane expedition. I've totaled up the points that I'm starting with, and readers can follow the story and watch the points tumble catastrophically as I progress through a totally untested mission!

[Ziv]

I've completed my Jool Mission!

I'm submitting for JEBEDIAH'S LEVEL

(0.23, MechJeb, Kethane, KAS, 4 Launches for assembly, 1 refueling mission, 5 Kerbals (2:Science Lab, 2:Mk2Landercan, 1:Mk1Landercan), Science Lab, All purpose Lander, 2 Moon Tugs, I left 1 Moon Tug in Laythe orbit for Kethane mapping, 12,683 science points (collected high/near/highatmos/lowatmos/surface science readings from all moons). Brought base back to land the Lab as per Ziv's request. Not an easy piece of equipment to land!

Pictures!

See the Title and Descriptions to read more about my mission story.

http://imgur.com/a/oIsN7

jmanidb: Congratulations, you have finished the JOOL-5 mission on Jeb's level! But can you please add photo from Laythe's surface? And how did you manage to get back to the Pod on Tylo as the ladder is high up in the "air"? Also can you please show pictures about the refueling mission? I'm sorry for harassing you with these but you know how bureaucracy works...

Otherwise it's a nice looking ship, and that's a lot of Science Points!! Oh, and can you show a picture about the science points too!?

[Ziv]

I'm actually about to do that Ziv. Seems like a weird design flaw.. The actual cabin spaces are realistic, it's just the doors and hatches that aren't.

I also have a drag issue with a part I need to chat to them about too so...

I have clarified this point in the rules:

+5 permanent living space per Kerbal (doesn't have to be occupied, can be reserved for future missions. Only normal living quarters and pods counts, so no Labs, Command Seats, LLL airlocks or other similar temporary solutions)

I also don't count points for the Lab - it's a working place, and Kerbals love to go home after a long day in the office! They don't want to live there!

[Ziv]

I've started flying and writing on the fly my mission report for the Kethane expedition. I've totaled up the points that I'm starting with, and readers can follow the story and watch the points tumble catastrophically as I progress through a totally untested mission!

Awesome, I like it!! Keep us updated!

[SSSPutnik]

Lack replied about the airlocks. It was done intentionally as you can't transfer crew around the craft, so the object was to pretend they were in the craft when they are actually all crammed in the airlock.

You cannot transfer out of the habitat cubes either. You need to attach a hatch or airlock and use Crew or Ship Manifest plugin in order to move them to the airlock. You must also activate the hatch. (Click on it and select activate). You can then EVA in or out of the hatch.

Thanks for clarifying rules Ziv, that makes it simple and clear.

My Jool penetrator has penetrated. Air pressure peaked at about 15 kectopascals.

Edited March 12, 2014 by SSSPutnik

[Lack]

Lack replied about the airlocks. It was done intentionally as you can't transfer crew around the craft, so the object was to pretend they were in the craft when they are actually all crammed in the airlock.

You cannot transfer out of the habitat cubes either. You need to attach a hatch or airlock and use Crew or Ship Manifest plugin in order to move them to the airlock. You must also activate the hatch. (Click on it and select activate). You can then EVA in or out of the hatch.

Thanks for clarifying rules Ziv, that makes it simple and clear.

My Jool penetrator has penetrated. Air pressure peaked at about 15 kectopascals.

Yep, it's for people using neither crew-manifest, nor Vanguard (I had a lot of posts about this early on, it ended up being the most agreeable solution) so they can role-play.

Vanguard removes the functional capacity of the airlocks, if you have it installed, and immediately dumps the kerbal in a crew capacity enabled part (or at least it did, I don't use LLL-full much now. Was a bit too enthusiastic when cleaning out my hard-drive and deleted the dev version, so had to go back to the last release. It's on a back-burner while I make SXT), but I'm guessing it would probably still read as 8 on something like KER.

I agree with ignoring any crew-capacity from the air-locks, I mean who would want to live in an air-lock? The rest of the crew-capacities are balanced as best I recall.

[Ziv]

Hi Lack, it's good to have you here. Yeah, now I understand why it has so much slot for Kerbals. Is it so complicated to put a door on a part, or did you want them to be modular with the doors too?

Btw awesome work with the LLL mod, I guess you gave a lot to the Kerbal Kommunity!

[Lack]

Hi Lack, it's good to have you here. Yeah, now I understand why it has so much slot for Kerbals. Is it so complicated to put a door on a part, or did you want them to be modular with the doors too?

Btw awesome work with the LLL mod, I guess you gave a lot to the Kerbal Kommunity!

Thanks. It's not too complicated generally (unless it's a complex mesh, air-lock detection is a fickle beast) it is just to make it modular really.

The large airlock was actually one of the first parts I made. I suppose I could have had specialist crew-cabin parts, but by the time I got round to considering that, I had a large number of parts in a lot of different shapes. Hence adding in the relevant crewCapacity to the parts and having people being able build them in a modular fashion, and slap an airlock on where-ever, seemed like the best choice. Given the various shapes, there'd no doubt there'd demand for different versions, which would probably increase the load further (not to mention it'd break up the nice neat lines).

[JedTech]

jmanidb: Congratulations, you have finished the JOOL-5 mission on Jeb's level! But can you please add photo from Laythe's surface? And how did you manage to get back to the Pod on Tylo as the ladder is high up in the "air"? Also can you please show pictures about the refueling mission? I'm sorry for harassing you with these but you know how bureaucracy works...

Otherwise it's a nice looking ship, and that's a lot of Science Points!! Oh, and can you show a picture about the science points too!?

Hey Ziv,

Laythe: I've added my Laythe swimming photos (I didn't get a great shot of Jool in the background (I tried to timewarp and wait but I think Jool must have been directly overhead)

Tylo: Funny story, its in that angle on purpose. On my first EVA my ship was tilted in the other direction and I was able to climb the ladder down the ladder just fine. I was then able to climb back up the ladder, but upon reaching the platform on the ship, I would just fall off. SO, I got on the ladder, and then I raised the rear landing leg (as you can see in the picture). This gave me an angle that allowed me to finish climbing on the ladder and then slide toward the hatch door to grab a hold of it. I then did a second EVA with the leg still raised (this is when the picture was taken). To get back on, I raised the leg, got on the ladder and repeated the same steps again.

Refueling Mission: I think I misinterpreted what a refueling mission was. I did not have a refueling mission that went to Jool. I just had 1 fueling mission on Kerbin to dedicated to topping off my tanks before the base left for Jool. (see picture with the long tanks attached to the top left docking port of my base)

Science Points: I've added the science points pictures. Here is the break down:

9683.7 SP was brought home in the Lab (attached to the Jool base)

120 SP received from bringing the Lander home from Bop (the last moon I landed on)

16.8 SP gathered from extra science I performed while parachuting in a Kerbin Biome

2863 SP gathered via transmission of science points. These were only for science points that are not required for the challenge (High/near orbit stuff).

(please subtract as needed if some of these do not meet your criteria)

jmanibd - Congratulations, I thought it was a very nice solution, and the lander was pretty awesome. Nice images too, did you fly all the way round Pol? I just about managed it!

Thanks for the compliments Speeding Mullet!

During my EVA on Pol I didn't attempt any amazing Pol circumnavigation stunts. I just flew a few Kilometers (5.5) to the nearest mountain top.

[Mike the Mechanic]

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Here is my entry to the Jeb-level subchallenge (?) - the lowest mass on pad to all Joolian moons. It is 31.355 tons on the pad (the imgur album has an incorrect title, apologies). I hope this is in accordance with all the rules, I had to jetpack one moon, and the lander was basically a tank with a lawnchair.

Edit:

I used flight engineer, and I had tac lifesupport installed, but it was not active in the save. On launch, I had certain tanks empty (one by mistake, but it turned out just fine), to save weight (thanks to the tweakables). It would be possible to save another ton in the ascent stage, since I had some fuel left over there before I dumped it in Kerbins atmosphere.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Mike the Mechanic
Forgot something / terrible gramar

[JedTech]

Very impressive Mike! That is a very light weight mission!

[SSSPutnik]

31t !?! Amazing work! Well done man!

[Norcurion]

I have been experimenting a bit with these sorts of craft. Found that SAS, lot's of SAS, helps! Why not use nukes? Low gimbal range?

Yeah those Kethane drills are HEAVY!

I'm entertaining the thought to build a landing factory already for a while . The cruel and remorseless rocket equation will leave that factory with 95% Tanks and about 10 tonns of kethane equipment unless i'd use some ultra powerful super mod engines from future, what i don't want to do.

So i need something else to make it look cool and thats the assymetric rocket mounts.

I don't know if this will work ultimately but i't fun to try

(And the Kethane Jool Thing is just perfect for it. Go hard or go home )

regarding the ASAS: I'm using lots of torque, but in this stage of development i still need lots of RCS to keep it stable. (300 tonns are hard to turn with ASAS only)

regarding the nukes: I want to land that thing on tylo. the whole thing. Questions left :-p ? (It'll still have some nukes for orbital maneuvering

regarding the kethane stuff: It's basically a tylo SSTO on oxidizer rocket motors... i'm afraid i'll have to use the small kethane stuff (~10 tonns alltogether) to get the paiload as small as possibe

Maybe i'm just crazy...

[SSSPutnik]

No mines similar, whole shebang lands...

I'm using 4 nukes and 4 aerospikes.

I really screwed up my Jool insertion aero brake, probably scrub and rerun...

[Mike the Mechanic]

No mines similar, whole shebang lands...

I'm using 4 nukes and 4 aerospikes.

I really screwed up my Jool insertion aero brake, probably scrub and rerun...

I may be mistaken, but that sounds terribly inefficient. 4 nukes and 4 aerospikes amount to alomost 17 tons, which is half my mission weight!

Maybe you go at the problem the wrong way: Instead of using 4 nukes, how about just using one or two - because you have to consider the following: every engine is deadweight in the rocket equation. Therefore, you need more fuel, in order to bring that empty/full ratio further down, which in turn gives you more fuel to carry around. (which ruins the thrust to weight ratio you wanted to increase in the first place, and makes the ship formidable kraken bait). This is especially important when landing on Tylo: Nukes are no good there, since they have a terrible thrust to weight ratio, which requires additional engines and again, fuel tanks. If you are to land 10 tons, maybe consider a cluster of the 48S engines - they are not as efficient as the LV-N, but their weight is a fraction of the LV-N, which, given the nature of the Ln-function, results in better delta-v yield.

I post this because I see a lot of space ships that, I admit, look cool with all 20 LV-Ns running, but also a lot of people posting problems with ship sizes and fuel requirements. Of course, if you have to haul 10 tons of equipment around Jool, you may want to have more thrust to execute the maneuvers on time, however, quick burns come at a terrible price, which brings us to the beginning of the post

[SSSPutnik]

I'm doing the Kethane challenge, carrying probes and a return module, I'm not aiming to reduce weight. Two Kethane drills alone weigh a lot.

4xnukes gives me enough TWR to launch from Vall on nukes alone. I took nukes for the efficiency for interplanetary insertions and cruising around Jool.

This is my fourth Jool 5 mission... Two others are in the leaderboard, first was scrubbed due to a part clipping issue causing tanks to fall off

I need the aerospikes for extra lift on Tylo and Laythe.

[Mesklin]

I really screwed up my Jool insertion aero brake, probably scrub and rerun...

SSSPutnik, try to use this tools for aerobraking calculation: http://alterbaron.github.io/ksp_aerocalc/

[SSSPutnik]

No good, screwed up coz my usual altitude didn't work as I'm running FAR now.

Ended up in a really elliptical orbit. I've kept going for now, but I only just made Call landing with 100-200dV remaining... Still considering scrubbing, will see how Laythe goes.

FAR seems to be giving less drag on aero brake.