(OLD) The Ultimate Jool-5 Challenge:land Kerbals on all moons and return in one big mission

[Oafman]

With .25 and all the other things I'm working on both in real life and KSP, it took a while but I finally rebuilt my Jool-5 ship that I posted when I asked about SXT and Tantares. Now it's all stock parts! (except for Kerbal Engineer) The plan is to do a level 2 + 3, so two kerbals on each moon, 10 kerbals in total, but no science.

http://i.imgur.com/8uh0X77.png

Now that is a nice looking ship

[loch.ness]

I've had a very busy week of marking essays and doing grades, so I've gotten little actual work done on my challenge. I've more or less settled down on my basic designs but I've run into a teensy-weeny mission breaking snag.

If I take the 10 Kerbal crew on the mission and the times I got from Alexmoon's transfer calculator are correct then it would require a supply of ~ 17,200 snacks while the ship I've designed would store only ~ 2000 snacks (2 Habitat Centrifuges (800 each, same as a Hitchhicker can), Science lab and Mk 2 plane cockpit (100 each), 3 man capsule (150 each) and 2 1 man cans (50 each)). With Snackpacks being 42 each it would require 50 octo-cores of Universal storage snack-packs to feed that many kerbals for that long of a mission.

The transfer window planner showed a Kerbal years as 422 days with the trip being almost 3 years each way and 1 year between arrival and the first transfer window. So that's a 7 year mission at 5 snack-units per day. Since I'm connecting from China (American teaching overseas) I can't use Dropbox or mediafire to download the Snacks mod expansion which adds the ability to grow snacks during a mission.

I'm seriously thinking of reducing my crew to 5 and examining my transfers. I think I might already be packing enough Delta V to ignore the "optimal" transfer window for the return trip on the 10 kerbal crew and definitely could on the 5 kerbal crew (though it would not be a comfortable return trip for them and could get tricky with the return areo-capture).

I'll be starting up a thread to document the attempt tomorrow. I plan to dramatize it to make it a bit more fun so I'll be beginning with Machine tests and Crew selection. I'll look into using Imgur - but my ability to see other people's pictures through that is shaky at best right now, so I might need to find a different file sharing service.

[kookoo_gr]

FINISHED!!!! Jeb level Grand tour with no refueling final score 45405.9, will post a report with many many many photos after i sort them out. Here is the final report of the mission

[lordmuffin]

Suggestion:

Maybe the UXS Enterprise mod should be prohibited, as it does allowed an engine that travels faster than light.

I mean, you could strap a lander to the craft, then head to Jool with faster than light speeds, land on a moon, then go back up and re-dock onto the ship, rinse and repeat for the other moons, then go back home.

I'm just a noob, so yeah, I don't really know, but just a thought.

[Ziv]

I finally made a video for my Jool 5 mission. I complemented the video that made it through the "disk full" problem with a few screenshots, but I don't think that there is enough material to warrant an award (I was proud of my landing, but sadly none made it to the video…)

Points of note :

- no mod. Ever.

- no dv calculus. Not waiting for window.

- 0.25 carrier mode : no XL tank or engine available, no big docking port, mission on a budget etc…

- only 4 launches from Kerbin : two landers (without launcher -- they are both capable to reach orbit and rendezvous by themselves), one mothership and one fuel tank (each one with its own launcher). Each launch bring a part of the ship (no refuel, not even on LKO)

The assembly

=========

The first ship in orbit was the mothership, designed for science (lab) and rest (hitchhiker), featuring a nice place to contemplate the cosmos (canopy). The first stage was also equipped with 3 poodle engines and a bit of fuel and chutes for the return trip to Kerbin. Second stage had 9 nuclear engines (3x3 radial clusters). The 3 kerbal passengers had an uneventful launch and orbit.

The second ship was a big robotic tanker. It docked behind the mothership quite easily using RCS and a fraction of its abundant monopropellant fuel.

Then came the Laythe plane. Unlike the two other ships, it launched itself from the runway -- and without launcher. Docking was performed without RCS, those being replaced by vernor engines under the plane belly, designed to produced some emergency lift (the lander is actually VTOL capable, even though I didn't used the feature because of oxidizer budget. It could however be useful in order to get away from some bad landing spot)

The typo lander was last. It was a multi staged lander but orbit capable without discarding any stage. First stage is built around a single nuclear engine, second stage features 3-fold symmetric fuel tank legs ending with aerospike and landing leg. The third stage hold only additional fuel tanks. Once again, it docked with using only the main engine, beside the space plane on the mothership rear.

En route to Jool

==========

Even with 9 nuclear engines, Kerbin ejection burn required many orbits. The 4-sections ship was wobbly, but not uncontrollably so -- thanks to the design putting the engine on front, and balancing the landers. Kerbals aboard opened - and finished - the snacks once crossing Jool orbit, and had to make due without for the rest of the multi-year flight before actual Jool intercept… (Yeahh, I didn't use windows !)

The original plan was to aerobrake using Jool, and visit Laythe, Tylo and the other moons thereafter. Everything changed when the pilot managed a Laythe intercept. It turned into a cheap - although retrograde - Laythe orbit. The plane was dispatched for landing (and science !), and had some trouble finding some land. The landing itself was skillfully managed on an island steep slope. But one big problem became apparent after take-off : chasing for an island had taken the plane south, and it was not possible to make an equatorial orbit. The rendez-vous with the mothership was compromised !

The Laythe mistake…

==============

However our courageous Kerbin tried to match orbit to the last oxidizer drop and got an intercept -- but docking with the plane was not possible, and docking with mothership would have been cumbersome and costly (in fuel budget). So our proud Kerbal had to jump ships in EVA. The mothership discarded the empty fuel tank, and the Tylo lander undocked the tank and docked again in its place. This maneuver was possible because there was only one lander left : the fuel tank was used as a double symmetric (and balanced) docking port for landers.

Tylo

===

Tylo had been designed as the next stop. The mothership would sit in low orbit (55km) while various Kerbals would use the Tylo lander in turns to farm science in the system, beginning -- of course -- with Tylo. After refueling and separating the lander, it performed its landing uneventfully. The fuel tanks were dropped before landing, and the aerospike stage shortly after take-off. Even though the remaining lander was low on TWR, the initial push from the second stage was enough to make it to orbit and circulize. There was more than enough fuel to rendez-vous with the mothership, drop the science, refuel, change pilot and go for the another moon.

Moons

====

The now light lander was successfully used for landing and bring science from the other moon, although there has been some short calls. Fuel was usually very low on lander when burning for intercept and docking on mothership back at Tylo orbit (less than a few units in some cases). However, fuel on the mothership was high enough to go for one last daring move…

Back to Laythe

=========

The Laythe near total failure had lead to an EVA last minute ship jump. And the Kerbal had saved itself, but forgot to bring the science results… So one last mission was launched to recover the lost science. It was a bit tricky to get to the ship (in retrograde oblique orbit…) and back with enough fuel to dock, but the science was saved !

Back to earth

========

Their mission duly completed, our Kerbals headed back toward Kerbin. After the ejection burn, it was obvious that the fuel was still plentiful, and Kerbin intercept was achieved without using the first stage fuel and engines… The nuclear engine stage was dropped only for not adding strain to the chutes, and the landing was uneventful.

Yeah, I'm sorry but that's absolutely not enough for accepting. You had a video until arriving to Jool, then *static*, then they arrived back to Kerbin. Only the substance what is missing! Unlucky!

Lesson learned: always make screenshots at every action even if you want to make a movie.

[Ziv]

Suggestion:

Maybe the UXS Enterprise mod should be prohibited, as it does allowed an engine that travels faster than light.

I mean, you could strap a lander to the craft, then head to Jool with faster than light speeds, land on a moon, then go back up and re-dock onto the ship, rinse and repeat for the other moons, then go back home.

I'm just a noob, so yeah, I don't really know, but just a thought.

Don't worry, there's a rule for the mods:

- Any other part mods are prohibited, except if you asked me before your mission and I permitted it.

So the UXS Enterprise is prohibited too.

- - - Updated - - -

FINISHED!!!! Jeb level Grand tour with no refueling final score 45405.9, will post a report with many many many photos after i sort them out. Here is the final report of the mission

http://i.imgur.com/GzBStJv.png

WOW, looking forward to seeing it!

[FanaticalFighter]

I have a question. Can I have seperate launches to bring kerbals (in Kerbin orbit after Jool trip) back to the ground? I have 11 kerbals going, and attatching return modules to the ship will tremendously increase the weight, so I plan on doing away with return modules, placing the ship in LKO after the trip, and then bringing the kerbals back using an SSTO or something.

[Ziv]

I have a question. Can I have seperate launches to bring kerbals (in Kerbin orbit after Jool trip) back to the ground? I have 11 kerbals going, and attatching return modules to the ship will tremendously increase the weight, so I plan on doing away with return modules, placing the ship in LKO after the trip, and then bringing the kerbals back using an SSTO or something.

I don't think it would be so difficult to return the Kerbals, even 11 Kerbals. Attaching parachutes and detaching the living quarter (and the Lab on Jeb's level) is not so difficult. In rare and well expressed cases I accept if they are brought back with an other craft but there have to be a strong reason for that. Difficulty is not a reason! This is a very difficult Challenge, one of the hardest.

[kookoo_gr]

Here is the report of my mission The Mighty Quest For Epic Science I will provide extra info on the science collected from the science archives of the game if it is required

Edited October 29, 2014 by kookoo_gr

[Dartguy]

Here is the report of my mission The Mighty Quest For Epic Science I will provide extra info on the science collected from the science archives of the game if it is required

You kind of goofed your hotlink a bit, here ya go: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/98090-Jool-5-The-Mighty-Quest-for-Epic-Science

Great job!!

[kookoo_gr]

thanks fixed it

[sedativechunk]

Hello Jool 5 admin,

So I recently actually completed this entire challenge on my own with several screenshots, but this was more so a test run than anything. I now want to make my official attempt now through a live twitch.tv stream soon. To confirm, I would like to use all of the following mods from last time, let me know if any of these are a problem before I attempt a live challenge please. Note, most of these are just alternate command pods and I haven't seen any discussion about these being used in the Jool 5 challenge. Could you please confirm any of these:

1) ALCOR lander pod (mod link) - this is a custom lander pod and I think this mod is fair use considering it's mass is similar to other capsules in KSP. If anything it's more complicated to fly with it's advanced interior view.

2) RasterPropMonitor - This is the mod that allows advanced internal views. FYI I am considering doing all my landings entirely in IVA view and I like the advanced interiors with this mod. I don't see how this mod really gives me an advantage over anyone else attempting the challenge. I mainly have it installed so it works with the ALCOR pod.

2) Home Grown Rocketry (mod link) - This mod adds Russian space parts to KSP. I am using the VOSTOK-style capsule that comes with this mod for my laythe water lander, as well as one of the parachutes from this mod. The capsule is similar mass of the Mercury stock capsule and only houses one kerbal.

3) Apollo Command Module (mod link) - this is just an alternate to the stock crew capsule. It's got similar mass as the stock command module and has an attachable parachute mod.

Besides this, I'm only using flight engineer and a few other mods from the allowed list. Some important notes:

1) These vessels above are all very similar mass to the stock KSP ships, and as far as I know they perform the same as far as reaction wheels and electrical power. They don't really give me any kind of gameplay advantage over anyone else taking on this mod.

2) These mods do not modify any of the original science experiment parts, and I am not using any additional science mods apart from the stock ones.

Another footnote about my attempt... I am doing this hardcore style, TAC support is installed on all the vessels above adding additional mass and I will only be loading quicksaves in the event the games an unintentional crash (if I crash trying to land then that is my own fault and I lose the challenge!). Let me know if the above mods are OK to use. Thanks.

[Ziv]

Here is the report of my mission The Mighty Quest For Epic Science I will provide extra info on the science collected from the science archives of the game if it is required

Hey, wow, awesome!!! That's a lot of pictures! Sorry for the delay, I'm working a lot these days but I will review it as soon as I can!

[Ziv]

Hello Jool 5 admin,

1) ALCOR lander pod (mod link) - this is a custom lander pod and I think this mod is fair use considering it's mass is similar to other capsules in KSP. If anything it's more complicated to fly with it's advanced interior view.

2) RasterPropMonitor - This is the mod that allows advanced internal views. FYI I am considering doing all my landings entirely in IVA view and I like the advanced interiors with this mod. I don't see how this mod really gives me an advantage over anyone else attempting the challenge. I mainly have it installed so it works with the ALCOR pod.

2) Home Grown Rocketry (mod link) - This mod adds Russian space parts to KSP. I am using the VOSTOK-style capsule that comes with this mod for my laythe water lander, as well as one of the parachutes from this mod. The capsule is similar mass of the Mercury stock capsule and only houses one kerbal.

3) Apollo Command Module (mod link) - this is just an alternate to the stock crew capsule. It's got similar mass as the stock command module and has an attachable parachute mod.

Besides this, I'm only using flight engineer and a few other mods from the allowed list. Some important notes:

1) These vessels above are all very similar mass to the stock KSP ships, and as far as I know they perform the same as far as reaction wheels and electrical power. They don't really give me any kind of gameplay advantage over anyone else taking on this mod.

2) These mods do not modify any of the original science experiment parts, and I am not using any additional science mods apart from the stock ones.

Another footnote about my attempt... I am doing this hardcore style, TAC support is installed on all the vessels above adding additional mass and I will only be loading quicksaves in the event the games an unintentional crash (if I crash trying to land then that is my own fault and I lose the challenge!). Let me know if the above mods are OK to use. Thanks.

Hey,

1. ALCOR lander pod - I really LOVE this mod, I already flew and landed on the Mun and Minmus within one mission ONLY IVA. That was awesome, a whole different experience. BUT it is 1.68 tons and houses three Kerbals, which makes it cheaty against the stock parts. If you attach a 2 tons non-functional something (or TAC parts) to it as they were one part then I allow it. I was already planning a full-IVA Jool-5 too, but didn't have the time for it yet (and also working on an Eve Expedition right now). I'm happy about your idea and very curious!!!

2. Sure, if you want to make the whole challenge on IVA then that will be something very new!

3. I don't know this one, please take a screenshot of the parts in IVA so I can check the details.

4. please send a screenshot of this one too.

Your mission sounds very ambitious, looking forward to seeing it!!!

[loch.ness]

Have been very busy with work for the last couple weeks, Haven't solved my Snacks delima yet, though a recent design revision downgraded my mission from 10 to 5 kerbals. My previous Laythe plane failed repeatedly on both dry and full landing tests, as such I wound up back at the drawing board.

In a moment of insanity I decided to try building a module 2 stage plane which could be dropped, land, then re-orbit. I didn't expect it to hold together for take-off, but it reached a stable 80x80 LKO orbit with 800+ m/s delta V remaining. That copy was staged so the landing was closer to a simulation of the return to Kerbin after the mission was all done.

I've now also built a test launch rocket which carried the odd assembly into orbit and am testing its feasibility during re-entry (DRE) and landing.

I'll upload a picture of it if successful on my next post but the craft configuration is essentially:

(Nose atmosphere sensor: junior docking to Small SAS, RCS tank and Mk 1 rocket Command pod/RCS construction tug. Docked to Science Payload Docked to Medium size 1m tank and LV-n with wings (Decoupler stage) Jet engine with wings. The multiple docking joints seem to hold together well enough and I was able to pull out of a pretty bad spin before. Landing this contraption is going to be an interesting challenge though.

If it works, this would be a real savings in weight, though it means my intention of having a fully reusable - modular infrastructure left behind at Jool (sans Science equipment as per the challenge) is bust, I can always revisit the reusable Laythe SSTO for future attempts.

Now I'm off to see if I can land this wiggly contraption, and then if I can figure out how to get the ship I've designed built and in orbit.

Edit: Surprisingly successful test.

I wound up staging the emergency backup parachutes when just off the ground only to touch down at 9.1m/s onto my wheels, on a slope and able to take off again. Now I need to name my wobbly eagle (before it gets forever named the wobbly eagle).

Pic as promised:

Prototype lander had no ladder, final lander will. This was a proof-of-concept design which went far beyond anything I thought possible.

landing used 1/3 of available mono-prop, far under budget, and includes some of the orbital docking of the CSM to the rest of the plane. No LF was used at all, though the engine was staged on. In successive tests I've not managed to set it down in a traditional landing yet, but with the parachutes working so well I might simply choose not to.

I did run into trouble with power supply. Re-entry skimmed the upper atmosphere for 3 full orbits before the final decent making it hard to guess where the plane will land. On Laythe I expect that could cost me the mission. The LV-N stage made orbit with 800+m/s to spare, but that isn't much of a saftey buffer considering how the LV-N behaves in Atmo.

Now I need to figure out how I'm going to get the sub-assemblies arranged with the other landers on my docking core and get them all into space (along with the rest of the ship)... then I can begin the challenge properly.

Quick Question: Apart from imgur is there another service someone can recommend for the album? The great firewall is temperamental at the best of times with imgur, Flickr, and Tumblr.

Edited October 30, 2014 by loch.ness

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

My experimental phase in sandbox is complete; I'm now working through a new career (normal mode with max Science and Funds, but default Rep) to the point where I can attempt the challenge properly!

I've come up with some interesting new ship designs with the new parts, which I'm hoping will make it a little bit more interesting for Ziv to review, IF I can get around the wierd docking bug (strange things occur atm, and seemingly due to control parts/docking...)

Not sharing any pics yet, as I want my designs to be a surprise, but trust me, they are interesting! (You can get an idea from some of the cargo bay threads somewhere... or if you happen to be in the Steam chat when I'm asking opinions about latest designs )

[Cassonator]

Would you take an entry using karbonite? I'm planning a jool mission at the moment, just wanna know if it's worth me fully documenting it

[Ziv]

Would you take an entry using karbonite? I'm planning a jool mission at the moment, just wanna know if it's worth me fully documenting it

I will be happy to link it under Kethane but it won't be an official Kethane enrty as it doesn't use Kethane, of curse.

I would like to start a Karbonite challenge too but the JOOL-5/Kethane already takes too much time and I have a lot of work these days. So if anybody wants to host a Karbonite JOOL-5 challenge then feel free to do it and I will be happy to help, contribute, or share it here. Or making a similar badge like the JOOL-5 one.

[vlanore]

Hello,

I'm currently planning my own 4-kerbal attempt with life support and extra cargo and I had a few questions/mod requests:

• Is it allowed to do the challenge in sandbox (as long as I'm not attempting Jebediah's level)? The first post sort of implies you have to do it in career.
  
• Is it possible to use the Flag Decals mod (I like cool-looking ships)? Since it's technically a part mod I figure I need your permission to use it although it really doesn't add anything useful.
  
• Is it possible to use Modular Rocket Systems? It's a collection of parts with stock-like appearance and balance which probably doesn't provide any unfair advantage but might help quite a bit with the part count (with things like a 2.5m NERVA or bigger xenon tanks).
  

Thanks for taking the time to maintain this challenge :-)

[sullivap]

Ziv,

On the subject of mods/addons: Can the "For Science!" addon be approved for use on this challenge?

ref: http://www.curse.com/ksp-mods/kerbal/220264-for-science

Thanks,

Pete

[Ziv]

Hello,

I'm currently planning my own 4-kerbal attempt with life support and extra cargo and I had a few questions/mod requests:

• Is it allowed to do the challenge in sandbox (as long as I'm not attempting Jebediah's level)? The first post sort of implies you have to do it in career.
  
• Is it possible to use the Flag Decals mod (I like cool-looking ships)? Since it's technically a part mod I figure I need your permission to use it although it really doesn't add anything useful.
  
• Is it possible to use Modular Rocket Systems? It's a collection of parts with stock-like appearance and balance which probably doesn't provide any unfair advantage but might help quite a bit with the part count (with things like a 2.5m NERVA or bigger xenon tanks).
  

Thanks for taking the time to maintain this challenge :-)

1. If you don't do science then it's okay in sandbox, yes.

2. Sure, this is just an appearance mod, no cheaty parts or physics changed.

3. I'm not sure yet because I don't know that mod and I don't have time to install and check it now. Please wait some days for that or skip that mod for now.

- - - Updated - - -

Ziv,

On the subject of mods/addons: Can the "For Science!" addon be approved for use on this challenge?

ref: http://www.curse.com/ksp-mods/kerbal/220264-for-science

Thanks,

Pete

Hey sullivap,

no, because that would make doing science too easy.

[sullivap]

I will uninstall the mod and start over, I was wasting too much fuel flying sloppy anyway.

Thanks,

Pete

[vlanore]

3. I'm not sure yet because I don't know that mod and I don't have time to install and check it now. Please wait some days for that or skip that mod for now.

Okay, I'll do without for now.

I have plenty of parts already with KW Rocketry and NovaPunch; don't spend too much time checking the mod if you don't know it already :-)

Thanks for your quick answer.

[sullivap]

Hello,

I think this may qualify as a Jeb level entry.

Details:

- 0.25, career, full tech tree

- Mods: Toolbar, MechJeb, TacFuelBalancer, Kerbal Alarm Clock

- 3 launches, Main ship, Main lander, Tylo Lander, Tylo lander launch also topped up the fuel before departure

- costs:

- J-V-CM: 272,622 credits, 518T on pad

- Laythe1: 55,038 credits, 7.45T on pad

- Tylo1: 94,664 credits, 136T on pad

- 94T fully assembled, fueled, ready to go

Mission Plan:

- Assemble ship in Kerbin orbit ~300km

- Jool Transfer

- Inside Jool SOI, reconfigure ship, dropping empty tank and engines.

- Tylo lander and Tug, piloted by Jeb

- Main ship with Tug and MultiLander

- Jeb goes to Tylo by way of a Jool aerobrake

- Main ship goes directly to Laythe, aerocapture

- Jeb Lands on Tylo, waits till he is needed

- Bill Lands on Laythe, goes for a swim, returns to ship

- Ship goes on to Vall

- Bob lands on Vall, returns to ship

- Ship goes to high Jool Orbit out near Bop

- Thompwin takes lander to Bop, lands, returns to ship

- Lemwise takes lander to Pol, lands, takes off

- Jeb leaves Tylo, switches to the tug, takes tug back to ship, refuels main ship

- Lemwise takes lander back to ship

- Main ship leaves Jool SOI, transfers back to Kerbin

- Aerocapture at Kerbin

- Lab and Hab return to KSC

- Profit

Javascript is disabled. View full album

There are many more details...

Thanks,

Pete

[jaddbo]

can we use the time control and trajectories mods?