(OLD) The Ultimate Jool-5 Challenge:land Kerbals on all moons and return in one big mission

[Red Iron Crown]

Ziv declined to permit Modular Rocket Systems a while back (link). It's too bad, most of the parts are structural adapters or multiples of existing stock parts that help reduce part count, IMO some of the permitted mods give more advantage. Of course, it is Ziv's challenge and his rules, he is the one who spends his free time maintaining it so if he says no then that is that.

Edit to add: Just to be clear, Modular Rocket Systems is all NecroBones' work, I just nitpicked and offered suggestions.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Red Iron Crown

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

Ziv declined to permit Modular Rocket Systems a while back

Aha, glad you are about to clear that up!

So that answers that one then... looks like we'll have to wait and see if it ever does get added to stock

[Krovster]

Have a good one dude, I'll try to drop by more regularly and answer any questions that come up to the best of my ability! (As usual, anything I'm unsure of I'll defer to you on your return )

Kinda handy that I'm recovering from an operation at the moment and have the time off work! (Don't worry, it was just a septoplasty to correct my deviated septum [cartilage in my nose!])

Can you have a look at my submission, its on the page 197 and let me know if I have missed anything as Ziv isnt around at the mo.

TIA

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

Can you have a look at my submission, its on the page 197 and let me know if I have missed anything as Ziv isnt around at the mo.

Actually, I've already had a quick read-through of some of the parts of your adventure already; all looks good from the brief look I've had, you even have all the Delta-V readouts open in Engineer, which Ziv will find very useful

Fairly sure you can use the imgur tag with just the code on the end of the album address, that should help your post stick out a bit more for Ziv's return from holiday, hopefully make it obvious it's an entry that he didn't get to before he left for vacation

[Thunderous Echo]

I have had an epiphany.

Complicated missions (such as Grand Tours) are often confusing when represented in Imgur albums or YouTube videos, so I have created a new system to represent "What you did"

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/102508-How-to-show-What-you-did-Mission-Profile-Notation?p=1589067#post1589067

In conjunction with an Imgur album, this may be a valuable tool.

[invultri]

Here is my planned vessel for public scrutiny on potential rule breaking:

Annotated craft:

http://imgur.com/VWBH48J

black: Lander (http://imgur.com/Ms5JPYf, should be reusable for other missions, starts on laythe and will ditch the parachutes)

red: life support recyclers and extra food

green: hab section and lab

blue: heat shields for hab section and lab. Including emergency life support and solar power in case the main craft can not be brought back.

orange: kerbin ejection stage (designed to return to kerbin via aero capture and should be reusable)

yellow: lander drop tanks (6 in all)

purple: main craft and extra fuel (should be reusable if I pack enough dV)

Not shown: a suicide probe for jool science (will dock below the lander)

Mission:

2 kerbals on each moon (1 changing driver and 1 passenger)

6 kerbals total

Science lab to be returned (containing half the science)

Double science (other half of the science will be brought back in the command module)

No (orbital) debris (hopefully)

Lander will take a second high altitude dive on laythe to get the upper atmosphere data

Assembly:

Will be done in orbit as the craft is a bit to large.

Due to part count I will have to send out the RT sattelites ahead of time (I guess this will not disqualify the mission?).

Questions:

1) The lander has 6218 m/s dV with 1 drop tank (and ~7000 m/s dV with 2 drop tanks for tylo). Judging from the charts, this should be enough to send the lander to each moon starting from Laythe, land and get back to laythe for aero cap and redock. Am I totally crazy or does this seem fair ?

2) Does anyone have any experience on how much days laythe to any other moon of jool and back would take ?

3) Will the suicide probe jool science data count ?

4) Does anyone see any rulebreaking in this design ?

EDIT:

More research on 1) has shown that I am totally crazy http://i.imgur.com/YPcsg63.png.

laythe to kerbin: 1000 dV

(Keeping in mind aero capture at laythe)

laythe to tylo and back: (3450 * 2) + 590 = 7490 dV (+ 520 Red5 safety margin)

laythe to vall and back: (1250 * 2) + 590 = 3090 dV

laythe to pol and back: ( 930 * 2) + 80 + 110 + 590 = 2640 dV + inclination change

laythe to bop and back: ( 880 * 2) + 30 + 150 + 590 = 2630 dV + inclination change

Not included: hohman at laythe to get back to the main ship (80+80+80=240 ballpark for circulirization+transfer+match speed)

MAX dV departure from mothership => 7490 + 240 = 7730

MAX dV departure from moon => 3450 + 240 = 3690 <=> MIN dV lander

Edited December 10, 2014 by invultri

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

Questions:

1) The lander has 6218 m/s dV with 1 drop tank (and ~7000 m/s dV with 2 drop tanks for tylo). Judging from the charts, this should be enough to send the lander to each moon starting from Laythe, land and get back to laythe for aero cap and redock. Am I totally crazy or does this seem fair ?

2) Does anyone have any experience on how much days laythe to any other moon of jool and back would take ?

3) Will the suicide probe jool science data count ?

4) Does anyone see any rulebreaking in this design ?

1) It all depends on how much you use on landing and ascent; for example I have recently landed on Duna and needed less than the usual 1380dV to return to low orbit... As your fuel tanks empty, the more efficient the engine/s will be, so it can be hard to tell! but 6,218m/s sounds like plenty...

2) again, it varies - this time on orbit and hohman transfer used. are you going to be using aerobraking on Laythe? if so, a more direct and time-saving transfer can be used while still saving some dV on the aerobrake maneuver...

3) as long as it is carried by the jool ship and returns (doesn't transmit the data) it's within the rules, yes

4)Seems like you are o.k... which mods are you using, by the way? Deadly Re-entry and TAC Life Support?

[invultri]

1) It all depends on how much you use on landing and ascent; for example I have recently landed on Duna and needed less than the usual 1380dV to return to low orbit... As your fuel tanks empty, the more efficient the engine/s will be, so it can be hard to tell! but 6,218m/s sounds like plenty...

2) again, it varies - this time on orbit and hohman transfer used. are you going to be using aerobraking on Laythe? if so, a more direct and time-saving transfer can be used while still saving some dV on the aerobrake maneuver...

3) as long as it is carried by the jool ship and returns (doesn't transmit the data) it's within the rules, yes

4)Seems like you are o.k... which mods are you using, by the way? Deadly Re-entry and TAC Life Support?

1) I just edited my post, looks like I was a bit optimistic on tylo)

3) SUICIDE kinda implies that it is not coming back And I do not think I can capture the transmission at the mother ship ?

4) KW, Nasa extension, DR, FAR, MJ, EE, KAC, PreciseNode, RealChute, RT2, BoxSat (just for sats), TACLS, Alternate resource panel, SelectRoot, KVV

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

Ah, some of those mods disqualify you, unless you are wanting to enter under honourable mentions/gatecrashers

I know Realchutes has been discussed, and KW is definitely not allowed... I guess you could copy your save, double check which mods are allowed, and delete all but the allowed mods just to make sure you qualify for one or more of the levels... (I think the original post has the current list, Ziv is very good at keeping this up to date )

The other option is to wait for Ziv to get back from his holidays to check specifics with him, but that's gonna be a while

[Red Iron Crown]

Er, KW is specifically listed on the permitted mods list in the OP. RealChute was permitted a few pages back, almost all the others are control/info mods or are permitted in the OP. The only one that isn't mentioned in the OP is BoxSat, but if you're only using that for additional vehicles it's hard to see how that would be objectionable.

[invultri]

Er, KW is specifically listed on the permitted mods list in the OP. RealChute was permitted a few pages back, almost all the others are control/info mods or are permitted in the OP. The only one that isn't mentioned in the OP is BoxSat, but if you're only using that for additional vehicles it's hard to see how that would be objectionable.

Yup, even BoxSAT was ok'd by ziv.

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

Corrected again, I should just let RedIronCrown answer the questions I think!

[Red Iron Crown]

Corrected again, I should just let RedIronCrown answer the questions I think!

That's flattering, but we should probably crowd source that effort while ziv's away. I've followed this thread for a long time and am fairly familiar with the rules (and to some degree the "spirit" of the challenge) but I still haven't managed to actually complete an entry. Please continue with your efforts, I'll help out where I can. :-)

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

Cheers... wish SSSPutnik was still as interested as he was, he would be at least one other who could help while Ziv is off enjoying some R&R

[Kobymaru]

Hi guys, I have a question:

I made a huge Jool Mission waaayyyy back, and I started it a long time before I knew about this challange. Now I found this thread and I am trying to decide wether to enter or not to enter.

Here is the problem:

- It's a multi-launch mission and I have no screenshots of any launches or of the assembly of the vessel. I do have all of the craft files though.

- Some moon landings are not as rigorously documented as others. Op said

Beside the nice pictures, you have to show pictures AND data (fuel, deltaV, etc) about all the key moments of the mission (launch(es) and the optional orbital building, dockings, moving in the Jool System, landings and getting backs, refueling mission, science points, etc).

I can satisfy that for only 3 out of 5 moons. For one, (Vall, I think?) I have only the "pretty pictures".

Should I still bother to submit an entry? It seems to me that it's quite a bit of work both for me and for OP (or his substitute judges), and it would be a shame if this were in vain.

In my opinion, I "did" the Jool 5 challenge though, so it'd be nice to have that nifty little ribbon and an entry in OPs thread.

Also, all of this started in .23 and it stretched all the way into .25. Is that a problem?

[stanz25]

Im going at it again. My plan is to have a

inspired mission.

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

I was just gearing up to take this on again, and 0.90 dropped... haha, typical! time to get to grips with new stuff, and probably make a monstrosity of a mothership hehe!

[The Hawk]

So, with 0.90 out, how long before someone tries the subchallenge "land on all biomes on all moons"?

[kookoo_gr]

Better yet, land on all biomes on all planets as part of a grand tour

Edited December 16, 2014 by kookoo_gr

[Hodo]

I was just gearing up to take this on again, and 0.90 dropped... haha, typical! time to get to grips with new stuff, and probably make a monstrosity of a mothership hehe!

Samething here. Just finished flight testing my new SSTO design that has VTOL abilitis and the space to fit a decent sized rover, and BAM! .90 comes out. So I just rolled back my version and "Charlie Mike" as usual.

The sad thing is I was only planning on going to visit Lathe, never been there, actually never been to Jool.

[Laie]

So, with 0.90 out, how long before someone tries the subchallenge "land on all biomes on all moons"?

I do have the hardware for that. Check my previous Jool-5 (badge is clickable) to get an idea, then add generous amounts of "more of the same". Which is exactly the problem: it's a bit too much of always the same for my taste, so I probably won't do it. At best, I might showcase a workable solution, but I don't see myself seriously competing in such a pie-eating contest.

[SSSPutnik]

Cheers... wish SSSPutnik was still as interested as he was, he would be at least one other who could help while Ziv is off enjoying some R&R

I'm lurking. Not had much time sorry, major issues at work and a big xmas holiday coming up. (Trip to Europe with family).

Apologies to all and Ziv.

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

I'm lurking. Not had much time sorry, major issues at work and a big xmas holiday coming up. (Trip to Europe with family).

Apologies to all and Ziv.

No need to apologise, I'm sure the ajority of us can sympathise! After all, Ziv is already on holiday and hopefully having a god time

I can see fineprint being useful for this challenge...

[Jodo42]

.

CHALLENGE RULES

2. No part-clipping.

Does this still apply with .90's offset feature? Also, to what extent do you mean this? No tanks clipped totally into each other? No tanks clipped at all? No debug clipping? No clipping, debug or not? Nothing purely aesthetic? Not even a cubic octagonal rotated so that half of it is inside a tank?

.

9. Mods:

Permitted part mods: (check for compatibility before you install them!)

- LRA Stockalike

- NovaPunch

- KW Rocketry

- SpacePlane Plus

- B9 Aerospace Pack, except all the big HX parts, the rocket/hybrid engines, and Crew Tanks cannot be used for piloting a vehicle.

- Procedural Fairings

- Kerbonov Kn-2

- KAS (but only the stock struts are allowed to be used!)

- Habitat Pack

- SCANSat (but no additional science points from the scan, has to be divided at the end!)

- DMagic Orbital Science (but no additional science points from this mod, it has to be divided at the end!)

- TAC life support

- attachable external lights

- attachable external camera mods

- FAR or NEAR Aerodynamics Model

- Deadly Reentry

SpaceY is a well-done stockalike rocketry mod that has similar features as KW. It's something you should consider adding to this list.

.

JEBEDIAH'S LEVEL: (be careful, works with Career Mode only!)

To make this mission the most useful the Kerbals want to collect as much science as possible. There are two ways for this:

- version 1: bringing five Science Package for each moon and bring them back to Kerbin surface. They must contain at least one Mistery Goo, SC-9001 material lab, Double-C seismic accelerometer, GRAVMAX, 2HOT Thermometer... and PresMat Barometer and the Sensor Array Nose Cone for Laythe.

Do we need 5 of these packages per moon? Meaning 25 total? Or 5 total?

[Red Iron Crown]

Ziv is on holiday at the moment, so I'll answer as best I can (if anyone else can pipe up to clarify that would be appreciated):

Does this still apply with .90's offset feature? Also, to what extent do you mean this? No tanks clipped totally into each other? No tanks clipped at all? No debug clipping? No clipping, debug or not? Nothing purely aesthetic? Not even a cubic octagonal rotated so that half of it is inside a tank?

No debug clipping for sure. No clipping of tanks or engines at all. Cubic struts clipped to make attachment points are OK. The rules were made before the offset gizmo existed, I would avoid using it for this mission until Ziv gives further clarification.

SpaceY is a well-done stockalike rocketry mod that has similar features as KW. It's something you should consider adding to this list.

I agree, but it is not on the list at the moment. I would suggest using an alternative like KW if you don't want to wait for Ziv to decide whether it is appropriate for this challenge.

Do we need 5 of these packages per moon? Meaning 25 total? Or 5 total?

That's a bit poorly worded, it means one science package per moon, so a total of 5 mystery goos, 5 science jrs, 5 seismic acceleometers, 5 gravioli detectors, 5 thermometers, 1 barometer, and 1 sensor nose cone (the last two are only required for Laythe). All science instruments must be returned safely to Kerbin's surface.

The other alternative is to use one of each instrument combined with a mobile lab for processing. Again, all instruments and the lab must return safely to Kerbin's surface.