(OLD) The Ultimate Jool-5 Challenge:land Kerbals on all moons and return in one big mission

[Ziv]

Okay chlue, your answers are convincing and otherwise I like your ship and mission planning (all the nukes can be used at the same time, little lander with huge dV, little part count and simplicity, high eccentric orbits, etc.) and I see that it could be done, so I will put your name in the Hall of Fame at the 3RD LEVEL, but next time please take more care about pictures! Those are not only the proofs but the fun and example for others who are not good enough yet to execute a huge mission like this!

Edited January 19, 2014 by Ziv

[Blue]

After having driven on the surface of Bop for more than 4 hours, I think I would like to officially submit a name for a specific mountain on it. And the mountain will be named "Hell Hill".

[Ziv]

After having driven on the surface of Bop for more than 4 hours, I think I would like to officially submit a name for a specific mountain on it. And the mountain will be named "Hell Hill".

Cool, show us pictures! Which one is that, and how does it feel to drive on it?

[sdj64]

Thank you for the clarification about mobile labs. I finally finished my flight, what an amazing challenge! Now the only place I haven't been to is Moho. Here is some info about the mission:

Game Version: 0.23

Mods used: Kerbal Engineer

(Before anyone says I cheated: Kethane was installed but not used, there are no Kethane parts on the ship)

Lanuches from Kerbin: 1 launch (2500 tons on the pad!)

Refueling done: no additional refueling missions

Living quarter: yes, 2 hitchhiker modules for 6 crew

Additional stuff not required by the challenge: atmospheric science probe, went down into Jool's atmosphere.

Delta-V info:

Shuttle: 2800 m/s

Lander: each stage had about 2700m/s (added drop tank for Tylo to raise to about 3600m/s for going down)

Mothership: didn't get this exactly, KER messed up with all the modules attached.

Yay, this qualifies for Jeb level! I count 10902.7 science from all the returned experiments. I got a bit more from crew reports, but those were transmitted so I'm not sure exactly how much. Atmospheric probe doesn't count for the challenge, since all of its science was transmitted, not recovered. I could have gotten a bit more if I had taken another pair of science jr.s and goos and a barometer and atmosphere sensor for Laythe atmosphere but overall I'm very happy with the result.

And here are the all-important pictures!

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Edited January 19, 2014 by sdj64

[SSSPutnik]

Amazing work sdj64. The all in one take off is amazing!

I think my next missions a bit overkill... Crew capacity: 39 I think my dV too low though.. Still in design stage.

[Ziv]

sdj64: Congratulations, you have finished the JOOL-5 mission at Jebediah's Level! Your launch vehicle is enormous! And I like your idea about the staged lander: jets for Laythe, normal version for Vall, additional fuel tank for Tylo + dropping the side rockets, and the lander core is enough for Bop and Pol. This is cool! But your lander is very tall so I imagine you had some hard time landing it, especially on Tylo!!!

About the new science collecting method and the Module Lab: to be honest I like this new part. It's much more realistic to collect the experiments from the instruments, and to have a Lab for cleaning the Material Lab and GOOs for reusing. The size/weight of the Lab is a good counterweight of that you don't have to bring back all the instruments. And it is good for low part count too because - as we know - high part number lagging in KSP can destroy the fun of the game... and this is especially true in Great Expeditions, like the JOOL-5 mission...

Edited January 20, 2014 by Ziv

[Ziv]

Regarding mods : Would LLL and B9 be OK?

Also globular fuel tanks. None of the parts seem cheaty.

Sorry, I missed this question until now. B9 is fine, I like that mod. I didn't know LLL, the parts look good and futuristic! Please check if the engines have similar Thrust-to-Weight ratio like the stock parts, and realistic Isps and if yes, they can be used. This Challenge is about finding creative ways to do this very hard mission, and mods can add to the creativity!

Edited January 20, 2014 by Ziv

[Blue]

Cool, show us pictures! Which one is that, and how does it feel to drive on it?

I didn't get any screenshots of me driving on the hill itself, only on the flat plain near it. http://www.kerbalmaps.com/?body=bop Hell Hill is 47° North 50° East, southwest of the valley which is south of the Kraken Crater.

Bop's gravity is such that driving on anything steeper than 10° slope results in speeds lower than 4m/s. In order to keep speed I had to go full throttle, holding the pitch-down key. Which means that I couldn't have the probe body reaction wheels on, lest I pitch forward and tumble. However because I equipped my rover with only small solar panels and a total of 400 units of electric charge, it drains the battery in a matter of 10 minutes of driving. This converts to about 300 meters of distance before I have to 1. coast to a stop 2. engage the brakes 3. turn on the reaction wheels 4. lock SAS 5. wait until the batteries are charged again (with Time Warp) 6. turn off the reaction wheels again 7. quicksave 8. very timidly try to accelerate. If I go too strong, the torque of the wheels will go beyond the critical angle and the rover will pitch up and tumble, resulting in having to switch the camera to Chase, turn the reaction wheels and SAS back on, and start over-- or quickload.

After doing this continuously to ascend 4 vertical kilometers, I thought it would be much easier to go back down the hill, seeing as, as you see on that map, the large plain area is 6 vertical kilometers of nothing but slightly rough downhill at 35°slope. Holding your attitude with the SAS and controlling your speed with the brakes is fine, but if my speed exceeds 10m/s, it's quite easy to go on half-kilometer jumps on the smallest bump on the surface. This would be fine and fun, if only it didn't mean also gaining speed up to 26m/s, which is enough to destroy the wheels and frame upon contact.

A quarter-way down the mountain I gave up in frustration, and sent my Kerbals where they needed to go via jumping with jetpack assistance, a distance of 60km. I covered it for both of them in a total of 20 minutes.

Meanwhile, I've managed to get TILLE down.

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27 ton rover on Tylo. Suck it, your gravity hole.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Blue

[Norcurion]

Would it be OK if i create a new Career game and edit the save game in the way that i have all technology unlocked but 0 science Points?

In that way i could measure the Points that i gather via antennas. Technically its cheating but I wouldn't get any advantages...

[Ziv]

Blue: OMG, 27 tons on Tylo! WOW!!! Will you introduce TILLE more? I don't really see it's body... is it two hitchhiker's module and a cupola?

Norcurion: Yes, you may do that, it's like you already done the science on other planets... but please note that if you want to go for the Jebediah's Level then you have to bring back all the scientific data to Kerbin!

Edited January 20, 2014 by Ziv

[Norcurion]

Thanks for the clarification! I’m aiming for Jeb, but to let those Crew Reports uncounted would be sad

The Lander and the Crew Module is already in LKO, only the tug, the lab and some planet specific lander upgrades are still to be blasted into orbit ...

[Blue]

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These are some pictures of the MILLE rover family which were taken after the landing assembly was already built and launched; before the release of version 0.23.

A MILLE3 was sent to Tylo.

[Mobjack]

I have started my attempt. My strategy involves building 5 separate landers.

My thinking is to first hit Tylo first to dispose of my biggest lander. This is the only body I haven't landed on yet, so I over engineered the lander weighing 30 tons.

Then I will set up base orbiting Vall and send small efficient landers to the other moons. We will see how that goes.

[SSSPutnik]

BTW sdj64, I like the lander a lot. Borrowed off it sorry for next mission What are the two pointy up bits off the sides of the jets?

[sdj64]

sdj64: Congratulations, you have finished the JOOL-5 mission at Jebediah's Level! Your launch vehicle is enormous! And I like your idea about the staged lander: jets for Laythe, normal version for Vall, additional fuel tank for Tylo + dropping the side rockets, and the lander core is enough for Bop and Pol. This is cool! But your lander is very tall so I imagine you had some hard time landing it, especially on Tylo!!!

About the new science collecting method and the Module Lab: to be honest I like this new part. It's much more realistic to collect the experiments from the instruments, and to have a Lab for cleaning the Material Lab and GOOs for reusing. The size/weight of the Lab is a good counterweight of that you don't have to bring back all the instruments. And it is good for low part count too because - as we know - high part number lagging in KSP can destroy the fun of the game... and this is especially true in Great Expeditions, like the JOOL-5 mission...

Yeah, the part count was 625, which is pretty good for what it does. My playable limit is about 700. You're right, I had to slow down a lot for the Tylo landing, costing me a bunch of Delta-v. Nearly didn't make it. I ran out of fuel on the side boosters so I had to land with the core, but I didn't want to ditch the boosters before landing because they had the larger landing gear to make it more stable.

And honestly, I've only used a lab twice. Once for this mission, and once to Eve orbit and Gilly landing. It's so heavy that it's only worth it for missions to multiple SOI's, but the lower part count sort-of makes up for it. Otherwise I just take more science parts.

SSSPutnik, the pointy bits have parachutes. I wanted to put them on the jet parts so I didn't have to carry their weight around to the other moons. The I-beams raise them above the center of mass so it doesn't parachute down upside-down.

[Ziv]

Thanks for the clarification! I’m aiming for Jeb, but to let those Crew Reports uncounted would be sad http://imgur.com/ScJiKnk

Hehe, I see you want to break a new record here! I'm sorry but I have to be fair with the past participants so I can't accept transferred science. But monitor them anyway, I'm curious too how much they count!

Blue: thanks for the additional pictures about the MILLE rover family, cool stuff!! Maybe I should experiment with huge rolling bases too!

Mobjack: good luck, hopefully your lander will work well for Tylo! By the way it's similar to land on Kerbin without parachutes, but you start with a 2000 m/s orbital speed at 10-45 km height and without the atmosphere drag! It is a long hard way braking down there! And you should reach almost zero m/s surface speed only when close (50-200m) to the surface otherwise you will spent huge amount of dV for slowly hovering-lowering your lander onto the surface.

And for the base parking orbit at Vall I suggest you to use highly eccentric orbit and so burning at periapsis make you leave the moon's SOI for low dV. At returning it may be cheaper too than a normal lower orbit, but be sure to come back at a similar orbit otherwise it will cost a lot to synchronize your orbit with the main ship.

sdj64: Yes, 625 is a lot. I try not to go over 300 parts. This usually leads to 350 at the end. But that's still good on my machine. Yeah, the lab is big and heavy, but is fun to have for long expeditons!

Edited January 21, 2014 by Ziv

[Alpheratz]

I tried the challenge yesterday. Had to change the design; I wasn't able to get back in orbit around Tylo. Now I've done it barely with 2% fuel left and in a 25km orbit I'll try to get not too costly encounters with Pol and Bop, fuel is running low

[Norcurion]

Hehe, I see you want to break a new record here! I'm sorry but I have to be fair with the past participants so I can't accept transferred science. But monitor them anyway, I'm curious too how much they count!

The count is just out of interest

Had to scrub my whole design, calculated some delta V wrong...

Here is Rodtrey training with the brand new Lander in the Laythe configuration.

When it's on the real mission, it will carry down 2 additional fully equip Science Packs for high/low altitude research which are dumped into the ocean shortly before landing and manually read out by a swimming kerbonaut.

[SSSPutnik]

I have the second Jool 5 mission in progress, (The Rimora). The next, is still under construction, but this time, larger crew, travelling in style. Behold the Osperos II. (The original Osperos having made it halfway to Jool was scrubbed due to faulty lander design). (Clipped tanks kept dropping off!)

The Rimora is carrying out Jool 5 mission currently, but is equipped with 8 probes for scanning for recently discovered Kethane as well as 4 Scansat's for terrain mapping the moons. So far Laythe, Tylo done, crew currently on Vall as it seems an ideal Kethane mining location.

Osperos II with the second drive section being moved into place. Hydroponics well established and centrifugal habitats are spun up. (Hydroponics section shielded from debris impacts by forward shields.)

Edited January 22, 2014 by SSSPutnik

[SSSPutnik]

SSSPutnik, the pointy bits have parachutes. I wanted to put them on the jet parts so I didn't have to carry their weight around to the other moons. The I-beams raise them above the center of mass so it doesn't parachute down upside-down.

Ahh! Wasn't sure what they were from the pics. Nice work.

[jacobgong]

Jeb level mission incomming!

Well this will probably have to wait cuz all of my 12 pairs of docking ports are bugged and I can't undock them. Whooray!

Edited January 22, 2014 by jacobgong

[SSSPutnik]

Nice one, what's the engine cluster in the middle?

[SSSPutnik]

I think it's finished...

[Mobjack]

Mobjack: good luck, hopefully your lander will work well for Tylo! By the way it's similar to land on Kerbin without parachutes, but you start with a 2000 m/s orbital speed at 10-45 km height and without the atmosphere drag! It is a long hard way braking down there! And you should reach almost zero m/s surface speed only when close (50-200m) to the surface otherwise you will spent huge amount of dV for slowly hovering-lowering your lander onto the surface.

And for the base parking orbit at Vall I suggest you to use highly eccentric orbit and so burning at periapsis make you leave the moon's SOI for low dV. At returning it may be cheaper too than a normal lower orbit, but be sure to come back at a similar orbit otherwise it will cost a lot to synchronize your orbit with the main ship.

After a few attempts, I landed on Tylo. I engineered the lander with 6500 m/s dV thinking that will be a comfortable margin to land safely, only to realize that only about 3000 dV m/s could actually be used for landing. The other 3500 dV required me to expend my landing legs. The good news is that I can return back to Vall without any help.

I didn't bother with a eccentric orbit with Vall because it didn't require that much dV to escape to begin with. I figured I would waste more dV trying to get my orbits aligned correctly.

One thing I did discover which helped a lot is that it is more efficient capturing orbits around Jool's moons that end up going in a clockwise direction. That way you can use the moon's gravity to give you a little assists in slowing down saving hundreds on m/s in dV.

[Mesklin]

SSSPutnik, it is very impressive piece of space technology. Good luck in your journey.