(OLD) The Ultimate Jool-5 Challenge:land Kerbals on all moons and return in one big mission

[Kasuha]

Tylo Lander (With mini):

DV: 5100

Mass: 60t

TWR (Tylo): 1.25

I definitely suggest you to test your lander before you start the mission. Either use hyperedit and put it in Tylo orbit, or slap a mainsail at the bottom, turn infinite fuel on and get the thing there the conventional way. Because it would be a shame if you ran the mission all the way to Tylo and only then realized your lander can't make it.

[Kasuha]

One question. The lander can, can it store all the surface samples, EVA reports etc from all the planets or do i need a separate can for each planet?

One can is all you need. Note that crew reports are initially stored in a separate bin which can only hold one crew report. But if you EVA a Kerbal and use "take data" on the can, he will collect it and store in the large storage when he enters. That way you can have multiple crew reports in the can as well.

[Alpheratz]

4 launches later my Spaceship is finally waiting for the launch window. But that will have to wait until tomorrow, after hours of watching various Launcher disintegrate for even more various Reasons and docking a giant Pencil I'll have to sleep first

http://i.imgur.com/8JcwezF.jpg

This certainly does look cool. What are your plans for Tylo?

[Alpheratz]

I really can't find any flaws with that design even with the 8 engines. I like how everything was modular.

How steady did the ship run when everything was attached?

Well, the main lauchg lagged a lot (700+ parts), but in terms of control of the ship, everything was under control. I must mention that when I fired my nuclear engines on a chain of 2 docking ports, they had about a 10 degree angle from the right direction. But it was always symetric with the other engine; I only lost some efficiency. My MkII design has a solution for that

[Alpheratz]

This wasn't quite 200 t (160 actually) but with a few more boosters or more efficient engines (these were all mainsails) and a little reorganization on your side and they may fit together nicely.

The ship was hanging down from the lifting part in the middle of it, all decouplers were attached at the top and struts were also diagonal towards the top but horizontal in the middle and at the bottom. It worked quite nicely.

http://imgur.com/a/FD7m7

Your design looks better in terms of structural integrity. I'll just have to add some boosters as always!

[zeppelinmage]

I definitely suggest you to test your lander before you start the mission. Either use hyperedit and put it in Tylo orbit, or slap a mainsail at the bottom, turn infinite fuel on and get the thing there the conventional way. Because it would be a shame if you ran the mission all the way to Tylo and only then realized your lander can't make it.

Yeah, working on a re-design, actually. Figured out the safety margin was just far too low, plus I'm DV-starved as it is.

Using SSSputnik's lander as inspiration/reference... already got it to 6400 DV, but without the 6t science module (yet). (It's going to need a bit more tweaking.)

[SSSPutnik]

Tweaked my Tylo lander. With two parachutes, this thing should be able to go anywhere:

Crew capacity: One brave soul.

Specs:

Stage 1 - 1264 dV TWR 0.94-1.36

Stage 2 - 1721 dV TWR 1.45-2.39

Stage 3 - 3744 dV TWR 1.02-3.02

Total: 6729

Total start mass: 39 t.

55km circular orbit to land then back with around 1200 dV remaining.

Craft file: Gravstar lander

(Complete stock, MechJeb removed from craft file).

Close up image in VAB: Image

Edited January 23, 2014 by SSSPutnik

[jacobgong]

0.23 571 tone single launch, no refuel, stock parts, Jeb's level, 11020 Science, no jets, Jool Probe, extra science!

140t in LKO, 60t at Tylo, 30t at Laythe, 17 tone at Pol departure, 14 tone at Kerbin re-entry.

I know I don't actually have 5 kerbals, but I do have room for 5. Even had Jeb sit in the command chair on the way back for the extra 0.08 mass.

And yes I started with exactly zero science with modified save file. The extra 2000 or so come from transmissions.

Ship Profile:

• 1x lander w/extension
  
• 1x Tylo extra stage
  
• 1x Laythe special science unit
  
• 4x generic science unit
  
• 1x RCS bot/ Jool probe
  
• 1x hitchhiker + external seat for 3
  
• Lots of SCIENCE!
  

4x extra material bay, 8x extra goo experiment, 6x extra graviton scanner.

Generic science module contains: 1x material bay, 2x goo experiment, graviton, accelerometer, thermometer.

Laythe special science module also contains: 1x atmosphere data cone, barometer.

Mission profile:

1. Launch, escape Kerbin, Jool aerocapture
   
2. intercept and capture Tylo
   
3. Take off Laythe unit, lander docks with a generic science unit
   
4. Land and return
   
5. Lander and RCS bot +laythe Unit balance the ship on two sides
   
6. Transfer and capture Laythe
   
7. Lander dock with Laythe unit, RCS bot dock to front port
   
8. Land and return, Take atmospheric data, undock sensor cone to dock back to mother ship
   
9. Transfer and capture Vall
   
10. Use generic science unit #2, land and return
    
11. Transfer to Bop at AN/DN without plane aliment and capture
    
12. Land and return with genetic scince unit #3
    
13. Transfer to Pol at AN/DN without plane aliment
    
14. Detach RCS bot, which then escapes into Jool orbit as a probe
    
15. capture and land/return with genetic science unit #3
    
16. Detach lander once science unit and experiment, personnel have been transferred
    
17. Perform escape burn when Pol is at the right angle to Jool retrograde for Kerbin return trajectory
    
18. Adjust intercept, burn off excess fuel for landing, transfer all fuel to bottom tank for detach
    
19. Aero brake, open chute, retro burn near the surface, and detach final engine+tank for more padding
    
20. RECOVER 10 TONES OF PURE SCIENCE!!!
    

Laythe's atmosphere is a trap, just because you can use jets doesn't mean you have to. For a small lander small rockets is actually lighter than jet.

Real men don't align planes, we simply capture at manly angles.

For a mission like this you're gonna need some modular parts, but making everything modular is inefficient because each module will at least need its own docking ports.

Keep in mind of the constantly reducing mass of your ship. Compensate that by having the right amount of fuel and jettisoning engines, nukes are heavy.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/66953-Ultimate-Jool-5-Challenge-571-tone-single-launch-to-land-on-all-5-moons%21?p=924005#post924005

Edited January 23, 2014 by jacobgong

[SSSPutnik]

Nice one! Amazed you got that into orbit in one launch. Love the flag.

Do you have a graphics mod plugin? Your nukes are different colour to mine and Laythe and Jool look prettier.

Laythe: Yeah parachutes and rockets work great. Jets are nice but its a long way to carry them for one moon only.

Edited January 23, 2014 by SSSPutnik

[zeppelinmage]

Much better Tylo lander. I decided to forgo the science module and just give it it's own science suite. Means I could lop off all that extra fuel weight. There's no docking port on the top now, so I'll have to install a radial docking port on my mothership... but that'll cost maybe 2t, far less than what I've saved.

Since the redesign went so well, I might just likewise levy these lessons learned to the Laythe lander.

Numbers:

DV: 6457

Mass: 41t (19t less!)

TWR (ascent stage): 2.82

[Mobjack]

Ouch, orbiting in wrong direction eats deltaV to fix... I did this around Tylo by mistake. Ended up easiest was to leave SoI and then dock.

I knew there was a better way.

I just raised the apoapsis to the maximum and burned in the other direction. I am at the point of my mission where I have plenty of dV left so I can afford to be lazy.

[Norcurion]

Nice, very clean design. Does it wobble badly under thrust?

I had only one acceleration test so far, but that looked very stable. I think one big advantage is that the engines are divided amongst the whole construction, thus lowering the force on the docking ports.

But I’m still slightly concerned about the jool aerobraking maneuver.

There is a little Leythe hopper that will get up mounted on the side of the crew shuttle and attached at the side of the jool ship and I'm not sure if this will render the construction tumbling uncontrollable. Hopefully not, because the lander's drag should be totally irrelevant for a 250 tons ship

This certainly does look cool. What are your plans for Tylo?

The foremost part of the main ship with two nuclear engines is cut of and used for the descend.

That is the whole design:

the conventionel Part of the ship has about 5000 dV, planned with a small TWR (1.4 on earth) when full.

But the tank that connects to the ship will be nearly empty when the Tylo expedition is started, so the nukes drain the two big tanks and are jettisoned right before the final landing.

That leaves the big tanks about half empty and with a rather big TWR for the early ascend.

the landing "things" are detached after starting from the surface

those medium decouplers under the parachutes are the place where the leythe engines will be installed, and the landing gear is replaced with pontons for water landing.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Norcurion

[Ziv]

0.23 571 tone single launch, no refuel, stock parts, Jeb's level, 11020 Science, no jets, Jool Probe, extra science!

140t in LKO, 60t at Tylo, 30t at Laythe, 17 tone at Pol departure, 14 tone at Kerbin re-entry.

I know I don't actually have 5 kerbals, but I do have room for 5. Even had Jeb sit in the command chair on the way back for the extra 0.08 mass.

And yes I started with exactly zero science with modified save file. The extra 2000 or so come from transmissions.

Ship Profile:

• 1x lander w/extension
  
• 1x Tylo extra stage
  
• 1x Laythe special science unit
  
• 4x generic science unit
  
• 1x RCS bot/ Jool probe
  
• 1x hitchhiker + external seat for 3
  
• Lots of SCIENCE!
  

4x extra material bay, 8x extra goo experiment, 6x extra graviton scanner.

Generic science module contains: 1x material bay, 2x goo experiment, graviton, accelerometer, thermometer.

Laythe special science module also contains: 1x atmosphere data cone, barometer.

Mission profile:

1. Launch, escape Kerbin, Jool aerocapture
   
2. intercept and capture Tylo
   
3. Take off Laythe unit, lander docks with a generic science unit
   
4. Land and return
   
5. Lander and RCS bot +laythe Unit balance the ship on two sides
   
6. Transfer and capture Laythe
   
7. Lander dock with Laythe unit, RCS bot dock to front port
   
8. Land and return, Take atmospheric data, undock sensor cone to dock back to mother ship
   
9. Transfer and capture Vall
   
10. Use generic science unit #2, land and return
    
11. Transfer to Bop at AN/DN without plane aliment and capture
    
12. Land and return with genetic scince unit #3
    
13. Transfer to Pol at AN/DN without plane aliment
    
14. Detach RCS bot, which then escapes into Jool orbit as a probe
    
15. capture and land/return with genetic science unit #3
    
16. Detach lander once science unit and experiment, personnel have been transferred
    
17. Perform escape burn when Pol is at the right angle to Jool retrograde for Kerbin return trajectory
    
18. Adjust intercept, burn off excess fuel for landing, transfer all fuel to bottom tank for detach
    
19. Aero brake, open chute, retro burn near the surface, and detach final engine+tank for more padding
    
20. RECOVER 10 TONES OF PURE SCIENCE!!!
    

Laythe's atmosphere is a trap, just because you can use jets doesn't mean you have to. For a small lander small rockets is actually lighter than jet.

Real men don't align planes, we simply capture at manly angles.

For a mission like this you're gonna need some modular parts, but making everything modular is inefficient because each module will at least need its own docking ports.

Keep in mind of the constantly reducing mass of your ship. Compensate that by having the right amount of fuel and jettisoning engines, nukes are heavy.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/66953-Ultimate-Jool-5-Challenge-571-tone-single-launch-to-land-on-all-5-moons%21?p=924005#post924005

jacobgong: congratulation, you have finished the JOOL-5 Challenge! Altough Jebediah's Level needs 5 Kerbals who are trained for the different moons for landing and science. So I can consider this only as a Level 1 mission, I'm sorry about that. And for Jebediah's Level the recovered science counts only, transmitting doesn't.

Yes, I think you are right about the Jets at Laythe, small rockets can be a ligther solution. I really like your lightweight design at overall.

"Real men don't align planes, we simply capture at manly angles." - HAHA, say that without MechJeb!

Edited January 23, 2014 by Ziv

[Ziv]

for aligning the engines, I used MechJeb, there's a "Force roll" option in the docking autopilot

Hmm, maybe I should read the manual for MechJeb because I use it for Delta-V statistics only and sometimes for maneuver planning... I tried it's autolanding only once at Tylo, but it always crashed my lander into the surface so I considered it as "useless", hehe...

[Ziv]

ABOUT THE CHALLENGE IN GENERAL

when I was planning my first JOOL-5 mission there was no real forum for it, and it was hard to find exact informations about the moons, dV's, etc. I didn't see a solution with the main ship on a parking orbit between the moons, and I've got the idea for a modular lander, a moon-orbit module, and experienced that high eccentric orbits are easy (low dV) to leave, etc. I don't say they didn't exist before but if they did I didn't know about them. So,

1. I wanted to share my ideas and experiences

2. I wanted to encourage others to do this mission and share their ideas and experiences too

3. I wanted this in one place on the net with a high information density!

But it needed some shape of course, and there were a lot of options for challenges: points, low mass, optimization, no mods, yes mods, one/lot of Kerbals, science/no science, one/multiple launch, refueling prohibited/allowed, etc... there was too much possibility and most of them would force the mission into one thin line, but I think all of these versions can be fun!!! And a strict point system makes most of the people want to go for all the points and my experience is this usually leads to that they want too much and they fail somewhere on the way (because this mission is basically very hard on its own when you are free to go minimal too) which leads only to disappointment and kills the main goal: having fun. This is why I allowed refueling, because running out of fuel somewhere at the end can be really annoying after some days/weeks of planning and flying and maybe people would give up there with bad feelings.

Doing a 5-moon landing mission is already a big achievement on its own, anyway. Only a dozen people finished it in the last 2.5 months (only some people in the first 1.5 month when there was no real reference, information and sample ships from other entries but now it started to boom, so it looks like this challenge is doing what my intention was with it ).

So I have decided the levels of the mission depends mostly on the number of Kerbals and if science is used or not. I tweaked the science version with 5 Kerbals (one for each moon at least) and that you need to bring back the science instruments (this changed with 0.23) so here's the hardest level for the most ambitious contenders!

And this is why I add informations after the successful entries about the mods, number of launches, refuels, etc. so everybody can decide on its own about which mission was the best. This is why there is no 1st, 2nd, etc... in the Challenge point of view, they all are winners!

So I understand that there are highly competitive spirits who want strict point systems and stock only without mods, others want to go creative with mod parts, and there's a lot in between and beside. But please remember: this Challenge is already pretty hard on its own, so the main goal is not beating others but looking for good and creative solutions, sharing ideas and experiences, doing some great engineering and having fun!

Edited January 23, 2014 by Ziv

[SSSPutnik]

Awesome post Ziv. You've done a lot of work and spent a lot of time making this one of the best threads and challenges I think.

I really like the short descriptions and stats you post on the OP as well. You can quickly examine missions and link to them.

Appreciate it!

[Mobjack]

Doing a 5-moon landing mission is already a big achievement on its own, anyway. Only a dozen people finished it in the last 2.5 months (only some people in the first 1.5 month when there was no real reference, information and sample ships from other entries but now it started to boom, so it looks like this challenge is doing what my intention was with it ).

The way you made the challenge sound originally, it would seem near impossible. But I think once people know it can be done, it encourages others to attempt it.

I like the no scoring system to encourage people to do it in their own style. More challenges should be like this.

[Kasuha]

"Real men don't align planes, we simply capture at manly angles." - HAHA, say that without MechJeb!

I can say it with full pride

Aligning planes is waste of dv unless you align by gravity slingshot.

[Ziv]

Thank you, I'm happy that this challenge became a good one! I was afraid that it could be too hard like my Rescue mission from Eve and so there won't happen to much here neither...

[Ziv]

Okay guys, who is up for a little sub-challenge for Level 1?

LEVEL 1 SUB-CHALLENGE: LOWEST MASS OPTIMIZATION

High-level leaders have decided to halt the Space Program and canceled the big JOOL-5 mission. Jebediah was angry and has decided to collect some parts from his Junkyard and build a ship on his own anyway!!!

Rules:

- One Kerbonaut has to land on all the Joolian moons and come back to Kerbin alive and happy.

- Stock parts only but MechJeb or other informative mods are accepted.

- One launch only.

- No refueling.

- You have to bring some kind of a Command Pod as housing for the long interplanetary journeys to Jool and back.

- for the landings you can use any crazy idea but the Kerbal's feet have to touch all the five moon's surface! (not simultaneously)

- No science necessary.

- provide screenshots about all the key part of the mission with information on it (fuels, DeltaVs, mission duration time, etc).

- Scoring: Lowest mass on the launch pad wins!

Come on guys, show them you can do it even on basic stock parts and lightweight!

Everybody who have done the JOOL-5 low-mass mission has earned the JOOL-5 low-mass badge and may add to his/her Signature:

to do this: Settings -> Edit Signature and add this line without the spaces after the two '[' brackets:

[ URL=http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/57197-THE-ULTIMATE-JOOL-5-CHALLENGE-land-Kerbals-on-all-moons-and-return-in-one-big-misson][ IMG]http://i.imgur.com/TDIcZyO.png

Edited September 1, 2014 by Ziv

[Mr.Rocket]

With the second ship docked and colored (the return ship), i'm ready to attach the landers.

Problem is, i've never been to Laythe, Tylo, Vall, or Bop. Would these be sufficient landers? Proper questions in the picutures

Would this be good for from Tylo orbit, landing on Vall, coming back to Tylo orbit, refueling, landing on Bop, going back to Tylo orbit, refueling, and landing on Pol, returning to Tylo orbit? (refueling done at mothership)

would this be good from low laythe orbit, landing, and returning to laythe orbit?

Would this be good for landing on Tylo from low Tylo orbit, and coming back up to orbit and docking?

(Sorry for the huge pictures, for some reason imgur wouldn't accept my album today, so they had to be separate )

Yes, i will fix the rcs thrusters later

[Jasonden]

Would this be good for landing on Tylo from low Tylo orbit, and coming back up to orbit and docking?

Tylo landings are notoriously tricky. The delta-V maps show 3070 m/s for Tylo landing/takeoff each. And when I did a Tylo landing, I used every bit of that. So you might need more delta-V for this is all I'm saying.

[Mr.Rocket]

Tylo landings are notoriously tricky. The delta-V maps show 3070 m/s for Tylo landing/takeoff each. And when I did a Tylo landing, I used every bit of that. So you might need more delta-V for this is all I'm saying.

Oh okay thanks, my map said only 2270 for takeoff landing each, so you probably just saved my mission there . (are the other landers good?)

[Ziv]

Tylo is like Kerbin but without atmosphere. Imagine you have 2100 m/s orbital speed on 45 km above Tylo. You need to decelerate 2000 m/s while slowly descending, and only stopping the sideway movement when you are about 100-200 meters above the surface. To come to this point you already used about 2500 m/s... then put down the lander as quick but safe as you can.. this may need an other 100-1000 m/s, depending on how agile you are (don't use MechJeb, that kills the fun of it!).

When you want to go back to orbit then immediately turn to east just above the surface and hold your point-of-direction marker just above the horizon... gain at least 2000 m/s speed and so you will be good for a 40+ km high apoapsis. Go there and circularize your orbit with the last drops of fuel... This would take you about 2400-3200 m/s.

So, landing on Tylo: ~2400-3500 m/s

back to orbit from Tylo: ~2400-3100 m/s

I strongly suggest to count with the higher numbers!

[Kasuha]

If you're not sure, test it. Hyperedit the lander in Tylo orbit or get it there with infinite fuel and test whether you'll be able to land it and return. Because it's not just about dv. It's about how you do things and if you don't do it perfectly enough, you may need some or more extra dv.

I never calculated dv for my designs. I just slapped parts together and went out to try if it works. If it didn't, I got clues about how much do I need to add. Or clues that I need to improve my piloting skills a bit.