(OLD) The Ultimate Jool-5 Challenge:land Kerbals on all moons and return in one big mission

[Norcurion]

Ok, I have recomposed the rules for Jebediah's level, I hope they are more clear now. Please check them and if you find anything unclear then let me know!

Perfectly clear;)

I did understand that i only have to land the lab, but i wanted to misunderstand you for the sake of the challenge

[zeppelinmage]

Oh, I don't consider KER, KAC and Enhanced Navball as 'mods' because I think they should be in the stock already, they are very basic stuff. MechJeb and new parts what counts here.

Fair enough! I also think they should be included stock; especially KER.

[SSSPutnik]

Ziv, just wanted to say this is one of the best run challenges I've seen, really appreciate the work you put in on this.

BTW: What timezone are you in / time you are online? (For future reference).

[Kasuha]

- I'm terrible at guessing where the thrust limit should be... and since you have to be at 100% thrust all the time for the limiters to work, it wasn't really a solution I considered.

Thrust limiters work proportionally, i.e. they work at any thrust, not just 100%. With 50% thrust, the limited engine will give 50% of its thrust limit.

[zeppelinmage]

Thrust limiters work proportionally, i.e. they work at any thrust, not just 100%. With 50% thrust, the limited engine will give 50% of its thrust limit.

I tried it at one point but for some reason didn't see that performance. (A quick test confirms proportionality.) I probably just didn't select the right limit.

[Ziv]

Perfectly clear;)

I did understand that i only have to land the lab, but i wanted to misunderstand you for the sake of the challenge

Sure! Collecting some stuff from Laythe's ocean sounds impressive for me too! I wish I could have some debris laying around there...

[Ziv]

Ziv, just wanted to say this is one of the best run challenges I've seen, really appreciate the work you put in on this.

BTW: What timezone are you in / time you are online? (For future reference).

Thank you, I'm really happy about the success of this Challenge!

I'm in England, Isle of Wight, so GMT. On the other side of the Earth than Perth, Australia... but with a good rocket it's just some minutes!

[Norcurion]

Sure! Collecting some stuff from Laythe's ocean sounds impressive for me too! I wish I could have some debris laying around there...

Could post the savegame... Maybe even as a own challenge... hmm o0

[Ziv]

Could post the savegame... Maybe even as a own challenge... hmm o0

Hell yeah! A Challenge between us!?

[Norcurion]

Hell yeah! A Challenge between us!?

would be awesome, but i have my midterm finals at the end of the month (March 18 - 27th), so to be able to compete we will have to wait. I think ill put up the savegame as a challenge, so everbody can give it a shot then.

It's about those 3 Items, the Science Pods' don't have a probe core, the flyer has one but is out of fuel.

All have jr. docking ports, so it'll be hard but possible

(The save will contain the items as subassemblys for training purpose)

[Ziv]

would be awesome, but i have my midterm finals at the end of the month (March 18 - 27th), so to be able to compete we will have to wait. I think ill put up the savegame as a challenge, so everbody can give it a shot then.

It's about those 3 Items, the Science Pods' don't have a probe core, the flyer has one but is out of fuel.

All have jr. docking ports, so it'll be hard but possible

(The save will contain the items as subassemblys for training purpose)

http://i.imgur.com/bkjyjOa.jpg

Yeah, looks pretty difficult! I can wait... but if you post this as a Challenge then let us know here!

And good luck with the finals!

[JedTech]

Arrived at Jool last night. Unfortunately I did not plan my periapsis very well and had to use lots of dv to setup air breaking with laythe. I did the air breaking maneuver and then separated my lander for another air breaking and landing later tonight.

Edited March 6, 2014 by JedTech
spelling correction

[Norcurion]

Arrived at Jool last night. Unfortunately I did not plan my periapsis very well and had to us lots of dv to setup air breaking with laythe. I did the air breaking maneuver and then seperated my lander for another air breaking and landing later tonight.

Just boldly go on with the mission, refueling is no shame if you need to in the end! (Happened to all of us!)

[SSSPutnik]

Kethane mission started. I was a bit lazy... To get to orbit I just whacked on 4 decoupler s and 4 massive tanks and some engines. Throw on struts, done.

[Himynameisjake]

I built this craft inspired by the Jool-5 Challenge and decided to go one step further. The ship was launched in two pieces (main fuel tanks and everything else). My computer was having problems dealing with the part counts required to 620km in one launch - lots of Spontaneous Unintentional Disassemblies.

I think this mission is special, because unlike any other Grand Tour I have seen, the same Kerbal (Jeb) will be putting his boots on every celestial body rather than splitting things up. A full science analysis will be completed on each body and brought back by Jeb to Kerbin. Bill and Bob will land in the MSL because bringing it back is part of the Jool-5 Challenge. The only data transmitted will be crew reports and 4 probes sent to the depths of Jool's atmosphere, everything else will be brought back by our brave kerbal.

Will update as I complete the journey, just really proud of the ship as a whole.

All in all, this craft is built to complete the challenge at Jebediah Level.

Answering the questions:

- Which game versions did you use?

0.23

- What mods did you use, if any?

MechJeb: Vanilla KSP with the exception of MechJeb. My time is valuable, so I use MechJeb to control the burns, which can be longer than *one hour* because my computer has problems with the part count. I also used MechJeb to control warps because again, my time is valuable. All ascents, landings, and flight planning is my own work (though I occasionally use MechJeb to fix maneuver nodes perfectly to periapis/apoapsis).

- How many launches was needed to start your mission from Kerbal?

two, one for the tanks, one for everything else. I could have done it in one, but my computer couldn't handle the part counts, and either the game would crash or the ship would experience Spontaneous Unintentional Disassembly. There are lots of docking ports on the ship which belie a two launch set up, but the reason for the ports is to shrink the ship as I use up fuel and parts of the ship to make the craft more fuel efficient and the part count lower (ship processing faster).

- How many refueling did you do during the mission, how much and where?

This craft is designed to complete the mission without refueling (fingers crossed).

- Did you bring a Living Quarter (Hitch-hiker's Storage) for the guys during the long journey?

No, Bill and Bob will live and work in the lab, and Jeb will move between lander cans. I actually probably could have added one, but landing it would have been a pain. Maybe next time I'll give them a place to stretch their legs.

- Did you bring additional stuff like satellites, rovers, etc?

Yes, I brought four probes to get deep into Jool's atmosphere. While they wont count for the science report at the end of the mission, it seemed silly not to get the science points while I was there as I've never been to the Jool system (or anything outside of Mun and Minimus other than one failed trip to Duna and Eve each)

- Share the delta-V informations too, if you tracked it!

My delta-V stats interface is a bit weird (doesn't properly show my stages), but I will do my best to share it as I go.

I detached from lifter at a stable circular orbit of 620km. My delta-v isn't remotely accurate, it's actually closer to 14k, so I will include my fuel counts in parentheses.

Starting: 8,900 (25,724)

Burn to Mun with mother ship new orbit to minimus: 7,454 (23,155)

Edited March 7, 2014 by Himynameisjake
Answered the challenge questions and qualifying Jebediah Level

[SSSPutnik]

Nice one Jake. Looks like a good design.

My ship for the Kethane challenge.

It's about 100t in orbit.

The top half is mostly crew cabin, (above the yellow and black rectangular decoupler) and shrouding. It weighs only 5.455t powered by two ion drives. It can return 5 crew to Kerbin surface. (And a small Kethane tank to get a sample back to Kerbin).

The remainder below this is main lander. It has one 4 man living quarters.

Rest is just tanks, engines and probes. (4 x ScanSAT and 4 x Kethane).

dV is around 3625 with all engines running (4x Aerospikes and 4 x nukes), enough to land on any moon, even fearsome Tylo. However it HAS to refuel on Tylo surface to get back to orbit.

Running with a full fuel load on nukes alone, about 6200dV.

Plan is to get out to Jool, aerobrake and head for Vall. Scan for Kethane, land and refuel. After that, probably Laythe. Since I am unlikely to be able to find Kethane on land there, it could be tricky. After this back to Vall to fuel again.

I'll need a really efficient run to Tylo in order to have enough fuel to land but I'm hoping this will work.

I'll drop probes along the way and when departing, leave the main lander section with some crew in Jool orbit. (I guess they will eat snacks and maintain a Kraken watch for amusement).

I was really lazy with my launcher... I just whacked these on, and a few struts... It worked third attempt to an 80km orbit.

Edited March 7, 2014 by SSSPutnik

[Ziv]

http://i.imgur.com/IPDbzoc.jpg

I think this mission is special, because unlike any other Grand Tour I have seen, the same Kerbal (Jeb) will be putting his boots on every celestial body rather than splitting things up. A full science analysis will be completed on each body and brought back by Jeb to Kerbin. Bill and Bob will land in the MSL because bringing it back is part of the Jool-5 Challenge.

[...]

All in all, this craft is built to complete the challenge at Jebediah Level.

Hi, pretty nice looking ship! But for Jebediah's Level you need to bring five Kerbals for the mission required by this rule:

- "There's not enough time left for training one crew for all the moon landings, so (at least) five Kerbonauts are needed for the mission and each are trained to land on one moon. There can be more Kerbals as passengers, of course."

So if you want to go for the Jeb's Level with the Science Stuff too then you need to bring five Kerbals, because all of them are trained to pilot and to do science for one particular moon. If you add a Hitch-hiker Unit and four additional Kerbal, all of them landing on different moons, then it would be good for Jeb's Level. Otherwise it would be a Level 1 (one Kerbal lands on all moon) with additional science stuff which is not required at Level 1. Your choice!

[Ziv]

https://moc-per.micromine.com/owncloud/public.php?service=files&t=c26e0cbb7c58e4df11a116821e1973c5&download

https://moc-per.micromine.com/owncloud/public.php?service=files&t=80dbd33bbd1b8b68eb1dc8de39d4ad8b&download

Nice job, yeah, the LLL mod make it look pretty different and cool. Looks like a clever design but I'm sure you won't be able to land on Tylo because all of these steps needs deltaV's:

1. Ascending from an other moon fully loaded (probably Pol/Bop, it's about 200-300m/s)

2. changing the orbit to a Tylo-catch (100 m/s ?)

3. Going on low orbit around Tylo (~1000 m/s)

4. Landing on Tylo (~3500 m/s)

so it would need at least ~4900 m/s. Other solution if you bring a little refueling ship which refuels the main ship until it's low Tylo orbit but this time you will need the refueling ship at least has this 4900 m/s plus for going back too (1000 m/s leaving Tylo orbit, then orbit change and landing back to the Kethane source too), AND for bringing the weight of the refueling fuel because if you used them too until you arrive then it's not refueling just visiting... or if you run out of fuel and cannot go back to the Kethane source... and you would need a lot of this small missions until your main ship is fully loaded so I don't recommend this.

Hint: you don't have to land your main ship on every moon. Only landing is needed on every moon, not refueling.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Ziv

[Himynameisjake]

Hi, pretty nice looking ship! But for Jebediah's Level you need to bring five Kerbals for the mission required by this rule:

- "There's not enough time left for training one crew for all the moon landings, so (at least) five Kerbonauts are needed for the mission and each are trained to land on one moon. There can be more Kerbals as passengers, of course."

So if you want to go for the Jeb's Level with the Science Stuff too then you need to bring five Kerbals, because all of them are trained to pilot and to do science for one particular moon. If you add a Hitch-hiker Unit and four additional Kerbal, all of them landing on different moons, then it would be good for Jeb's Level. Otherwise it would be a Level 1 (one Kerbal lands on all moon) with additional science stuff which is not required at Level 1. Your choice!

Ugh, will a hitchhiker launch affect my status in any other way? Or if I just add on a hitchhiker unit am I still good for Jeb level?

Edited March 7, 2014 by Himynameisjake

[Himynameisjake]

nevermind, I just relaunched the damn thing lol

[Ziv]

nevermind, I just relaunched the damn thing lol

Hehe. And don't forget to make pictures about everything! (even the launches too ) Good luck, your ship looks good!

[Himynameisjake]

Hehe. And don't forget to make pictures about everything! (even the launches too ) Good luck, your ship looks good!

Will do, even though the launches are boring and gross (they take almost a half hour because of part count processing )

[SSSPutnik]

Nice job, yeah, the LLL mod make it look pretty different and cool. Looks like a clever design but I'm sure you won't be able to land on Tylo because all of these steps needs deltaV's:

1. Ascending from an other moon fully loaded (probably Pol/Bop, it's about 200-300m/s)

2. changing the orbit to a Tylo-catch (100 m/s ?)

3. Going on low orbit around Tylo (~1000 m/s)

4. Landing on Tylo (~3500 m/s)

so it would need at least ~4900 m/s.)

Remember it has 6200dV running on nukes only. It only needs aerospikes on the heavier bodies.

But still, I am worried, I'll sit down and do some number crunching.

The alternative is I just land the bottom half on each moon, might need to tweak design some.

[Norcurion]

I'd plan about 500 dV at least for a sound SOI exit + plane change to Tylo + course corrections from any body. ( But nevertheless it should be better to launch from the smallest moon possible and take the greater homann dV costs, beating gravity is costly

When you do 75% of the 3000 DV of the tylo landing on AS and 25 on nukes means you have burned about 2250 delta V of the 3600 that you have on Aerospikes with the 75% landing. the remaining ~1000 deltaV translated into Nuke deltaV should give you 2000 dV , from which 750 is reserved for the 25% of the tylo landing. Would give you 1250 room. 300 dV reserved for the start + SOI exit of bop+ 200 for the rest of the homan (with gravity assists?) would be left 750 for the tylo capture.

When you do 60% of the landing on aerospikes you'd have 1800 dV of your 3600 Aerospike dV burned with the AS, giving you 1800 x~2= 3600 dV for the nukes. You burn 1200 on the tylo landing, giving you 2400 dV spare for pol start + soi exit, hohmann and capture.

It's only a question of the Fraction of AS use

Knowing you're good i bet you can make it... scarcly and on the last drops of fuel, but youll do it

When you're already on your way go for it, when you're still planning you might add a little safety margin, i'd be worried and would recalculate the aproach a thousand times if i had to pull off a landing that close

Edited March 8, 2014 by Norcurion

[SSSPutnik]

Thanks for the assistance norcurion. I had aerobraked into Jool system, but after thinking overnight and today's forum comments I'm redesigning a bit.

I'll recover the craft and trim some weight and maybe add some more tanks.

Also adding wings to the return craft, I will try and taxi it in at KSC! (Given I've never managed to land an aircraft in one piece I have some practise coming up).