(OLD) The Ultimate Jool-5 Challenge:land Kerbals on all moons and return in one big mission

[John FX]

Well I have now done it. Mission report is not yet finished but all the pictures are HERE

The gallery currently includes all the failed launches and quicksave reverts (of which there are many including one where I landed on laythe and when I reloaded my craft just exploded every time, thank jebretary I could revert to a previous quicksave)

I'll understand if there are too many images, I'll try to trim it down when I have time. The very first launch did not have orbital capacity so that is the first revert.

Also there was an entire aborted mission. The real mission starts when the large jool 5 leaves kerbin powered by NERVA

Edited March 17, 2015 by John FX

[Ziv]

Hey everybody,

I was very busy again but I'm happy to see the peer review worked with Nik333!

I will accept his entry soon, after worktime.

And please check and comment JohnFX's entry too!

Cheers!!

[John FX]

I'll understand if my entry is a bit daunting, there are 680 images and no text yet. I'm in the middle of moving into a new place but if anyone wants to have a look I'll be grateful.

I will tidy it up a lot and make it much more accessible (and interesting) in the near future when I have some time.

EDIT : I have removed a lot of erroneous images, mostly from the first (failed) attempt. Image number is down to around 350 now.

I'll try to put them into separate galleries in the next few days and provide a better mission report.

Edited March 18, 2015 by John FX

[John FX]

OK, I have removed around 400 images and added a mission report which I will quote here.

Here goes.

The plan called for lander craft that could land on all 5 moons of Jool. Budget restrictions meant we only had enough funds for 2 landers so the two problem moons Laythe and Tylo were singled out as the limits of performance for the landers. An airbreathing lander was designed for Laythe and a High Dv lander was created for Tylo with the orbit section of the Tylo lander having refuel capability for the center stage and this stage was given landing legs to enable it to land on the remaining 3 moons.

It was decided to build the craft in orbit at the OCS (Orbital Construction Station) and refuel it there. A previous failed mission to Jool had found that the KR-2L did not have the performance envelope required for the mission so a cluster of NERVA engines was used for the second attempt.

The launches were separated into tylo lander, laythe lander, propulsion section, Hab unit (designed for reentry at the end of the mission), Ferry unit with 2 NERVA and some utility adapters with differing sizes of docking ports and RCS.

It was decided that just a few fixed solar panels would supply enough energy for the mission but a hefty battery bank would be needed.

The images show the construction of the Jool 5 starting with the ferry unit meeting up with the OCS then the propulsion unit. The rest of the sections are launched and assembled in orbit.

Once this is done the fuel needed is sent up and the hub and refuel craft are pulled from the middle of the two sections which then dock to make the final configuration.

Then we go off to Jool.

The initial aerobraking was not enough to capture the craft in Jool orbit so a burn was made to keep the craft in Jool SOI.

Quite a few aerobrakes followed to reduce the Ap closer to Laythe. A chance encounter with Tylo increased the Ap a bit requiring yet more aerobraking.

A small correction burn put the craft on a course for Laythe SOI. Another aerobrake and correcting burn and we entered Laythe orbit where the Laythe lander and ferry unit detached from the craft and burned to circularize around Laythe. the lander detached and burned to deorbit. There were a few failed attempts to touch down on land as it seems the Laythe lander was prone to exploding on quicksave reload if landed in water.

After launch the lander docked with the ferry unit which then burned to rendezvous with the main craft. After docking the lander was left in Laythe orbit and a maneuver was planned to transfer to tylo.

A similar method was executed for Tylo. Attain orbit, detach lander and ferry, circularise, land, launch and dock. This left the lander in a much smaller state than before although still with 2000Dv when refuelled and a good TWR. After meeting up with the main craft again the next destination was Val.

Rinse repeat.

Then Pol

rinse repeat.

Finally Bop.

At this point it was noticed that nearly a full large fuel tank remained giving nearly 8000 Dv and only needing just over 1600 to get home so the mission could probably have been done with only two of the three fuel tanks in the propulsion unit.

The burn home was made and another burn to make the craft reenter kerbins atmosphere. A couple of quicksave reloads gave us the right Pe to hit Kerbin at and the Hab pod was landed in the water.

I then spent about 10 minutes getting all the kerbals to stand on the pod looking cool but the pod then rolled and they all fell into the water...

This is my Jool 5 mission report.

[purpleivan]

Hi

I'm thinking of taking a crack at the third level challenge (5 kerbals using 5 landers) but before I start on this, I'd like to confirm whether or not the Lazor docking cam is an allowed mod.

It does make docking a little easier, but mainly I use it to make it a little more fun.

Other than that the only mods I would use would be purely aesthetic (Hotrockets, Better Atmospheres etc.) and Precise Node, which I only use to get around the "can't place maneuver node on current orbit" bug (wish Squad would fix that).

[Deutherius]

Hi

I'm thinking of taking a crack at the third level challenge (5 kerbals using 5 landers) but before I start on this, I'd like to confirm whether or not the Lazor docking cam is an allowed mod.

It does make docking a little easier, but mainly I use it to make it a little more fun.

Other than that the only mods I would use would be purely aesthetic (Hotrockets, Better Atmospheres etc.) and Precise Node, which I only use to get around the "can't place maneuver node on current orbit" bug (wish Squad would fix that).

From the first page: MechJeb is permitted. Also any helpful mod is accepted which doesn't add parts and doesn't change the physics (information mods, alarm clocks, enhanced navballs, docking cams, texture replacers, clouds, protractor, fuel balancer, chatterer, etc).

Docking cams are permitted. Good luck with your mission

[purpleivan]

From the first page: MechJeb is permitted. Also any helpful mod is accepted which doesn't add parts and doesn't change the physics (information mods, alarm clocks, enhanced navballs, docking cams, texture replacers, clouds, protractor, fuel balancer, chatterer, etc).

Docking cams are permitted. Good luck with your mission

Thanks for that, I did look on the first page but missed the listing of docking cams as being allowed.

So now... to the VAB!

[John FX]

OK, I have removed around 400 images and added a mission report which I will quote here.

I the absence of anyone looking at my mission report, I'll just say I've done it and remove the badge if there are any issues later...

If there are any reasons why noone is looking, post here and I'll try to address them.

[Nik333]

I the absence of anyone looking at my mission report, I'll just say I've done it and remove the badge if there are any issues later...

If there are any reasons why noone is looking, post here and I'll try to address them.

Reviewed your report and I think it's legit. Good job!

[Deutherius]

I the absence of anyone looking at my mission report, I'll just say I've done it and remove the badge if there are any issues later...

If there are any reasons why noone is looking, post here and I'll try to address them.

I don't think it's supposed to work that way... But I'm not Ziv, so nevermind me.

One reason - the ALCOR capsule. Technically it's against the rules, because it didn't get validation from Ziv before the mission. Someone pointed out that it weights less than the solo lander can per kerbal, which might get it disqualified. Not sure what you can do to address this, maybe try contacting Ziv via a PM to give you a post-mission green light - if you do and the capsule gets accepted, I'll be happy to judge your mission thoroughly.

[John FX]

I don't think it's supposed to work that way... But I'm not Ziv, so nevermind me.

One reason - the ALCOR capsule. Technically it's against the rules, because it didn't get validation from Ziv before the mission. Someone pointed out that it weights less than the solo lander can per kerbal, which might get it disqualified. Not sure what you can do to address this, maybe try contacting Ziv via a PM to give you a post-mission green light - if you do and the capsule gets accepted, I'll be happy to judge your mission thoroughly.

Well I asked before I made my craft on 26th Feb but got no reply. Others have asked about it also but had no reply. If the weight is an issue then the fact I was carrying an entire full Kerbodyne S3-14400 all the way to Jool, all around the Joolian system and back again should offset the minor weight benefit from using two ALCOR capsules instead of 2 hitchhikers.

The spirit of the rule is so that you do not gain Dv from your craft weighing less than it should but mine weighed 82T more than it should so I'm not going to worry.

If I get disqualified I'll repeat the mission. It wasn't hard. I'll not carry the ~72T of spare fuel this time though...

Might just put three extra landers on board so I have 5 landers for extra credit, there is plenty of spare capacity in the craft I made.

I think I'll give the Eve one a go next, I've not done an Eve return yet. It's one of the few things I have not done in the game.

[Deutherius]

Well I asked before I made my craft on 26th Feb but got no reply. Others have asked about it also but had no reply. If the weight is an issue then the fact I was carrying an entire full Kerbodyne S3-14400 all the way to Jool, all around the Joolian system and back again should offset the minor weight benefit from using two ALCOR capsules instead of 2 hitchhikers.

The spirit of the rule is so that you do not gain Dv from your craft weighing less than it should but mine weighed 82T more than it should so I'm not going to worry.

No reply means no validation, meaning not allowed. There are stock or validated mod alternatives you could've used. The argument about extra mass you carried doesn't have any merit, as the accepted mods must work equally for everyone, regardless of any individual self-penalizations. Personally I wouldn't really care much for 0.1t per kerbal less mass the ALCOR has - but that's not the point. The point is that you didn't adhere to the rules of the challenge, even if you didn't get any benefit from it. Therefore unless Ziv says it's okay, I'm gonna assume it's not.

[John FX]

No reply means no validation, meaning not allowed. There are stock or validated mod alternatives you could've used. The argument about extra mass you carried doesn't have any merit, as the accepted mods must work equally for everyone, regardless of any individual self-penalizations. Personally I wouldn't really care much for 0.1t per kerbal less mass the ALCOR has - but that's not the point. The point is that you didn't adhere to the rules of the challenge, even if you didn't get any benefit from it. Therefore unless Ziv says it's okay, I'm gonna assume it's not.

I'll just take your position on this one.

I'm not Ziv, so nevermind me.

Ok. I'll wait for Ziv to post and accept their decision.

[sdj64]

Ok. I'll wait for Ziv to post and accept their decision.

I think that the ALCOR pod was banned a while back, but never made it to the banned mods list. I can't find anything about the ALCOR in this thread with a quick search, but I still remember something was said about it. It is, as you say, lighter per kerbal than the Hitchhiker with the added benefit of being a control pod itself, so your ship doesn't need an additional probe core (even if it did have one, that's not the point). Based on the other mods that were banned, I would think that it's likely that Ziv would not allow it.

[Red Iron Crown]

Ziv banned the ALCOR pod unless you add some non-functional mass to the lander. Link to post.

[Nik333]

I am not sure if I should have that Jool-5 badge in my signature. After all, Ziv have wrote exactly this, just he don't have time to post it in main thread.

I was very busy again but I'm happy to see the peer review worked with Nik333!

I will accept his entry soon, after worktime.

Cheers!!

Also some basic info to make it easier for Ziv:

- Nik333 (0.90, mods: KER only, multiple launches, 447t in LKO, no refueling, two kerbals (Jeb for Laythe/Tylo, Bill for rest), 3 single-seat landers, few short video reports, report here)

Edited March 28, 2015 by Nik333
Stupid typo

[John FX]

ALCOR lander pod - I really LOVE this mod, I already flew and landed on the Mun and Minmus within one mission ONLY IVA. That was awesome, a whole different experience. BUT it is 1.68 tons and houses three Kerbals, which makes it cheaty against the stock parts. If you attach a 2 tons non-functional something (or TAC parts) to it as they were one part then I allow it. I was already planning a full-IVA Jool-5 too, but didn't have the time for it yet (and also working on an Eve Expedition right now). I'm happy about your idea and very curious!!!

The ALCOR pod is not banned which is why it is not on the banned list. It is accepted with a caveat that your craft not weight less through using it which is why it is not on the accepted list either. I had 2 ALCOR pods but only used 1 as I did the entire mission with Jeb only making the other 4 kerbals and the second pod fit the definition of a 'non-functional something' along with 750 mono which was unused. I also carried over 50T of mass for no purpose.

This seems really petty...

I still feel I am within the rules. The pod is NOT banned, you just have to carry useless weight to offset the Dv benefit, which I did. This extra weight must be carried with your craft all the time you have the ALCOR pod connected to stop you just dumping it, which I also did.

[parzr]

The ALCOR pod is not banned which is why it is not on the banned list. It is accepted with a caveat that your craft not weight less through using it which is why it is not on the accepted list either. I had 2 ALCOR pods but only used 1 as I did the entire mission with Jeb only making the other 4 kerbals and the second pod fit the definition of a 'non-functional something' along with 750 mono which was unused. I also carried over 50T of mass for no purpose.

This seems really petty...

I still feel I am within the rules. The pod is NOT banned, you just have to carry useless weight to offset the Dv benefit, which I did. This extra weight must be carried with your craft all the time you have the ALCOR pod connected to stop you just dumping it, which I also did.

The challenge is already far easier than Ziv had originally intended. The value of the rule of law should not be questioned or criticized here.

That said, having an empty can would meet that requirement for extra weight. Where's your mission post?

Edit: your signature line probably doesn't help build confidence.

Edited March 28, 2015 by parzr

[Red Iron Crown]

I had a closer look at JohnFX's entry, it looks legit to me. The Alcor pod is not used on the landers, and the mothership certainly had the mass budget to carry a hitchhiker instead of the two pods, so he gained no real advantage by using them other than a prettier IVA. I'd say the entry falls within both Ziv's guidelines for the use of the pod and the spirit of the challenge.

I'm adding my endorsement to the entry in his mission report.

Seriously, John FX, that signature is not helping your cause here.

[Ziv]

Hi everybody, very sorry about my absence in the last days.

Nik333: Congratulations, you have finished the JOOL-5 Challenge on ... omg, for Level 2 both of the Kerbals should have landed, and for Level 3 you should have brought 5 Kerbals, trained one Kerbal for each moon. So I accept this as level 1 entry, okay?

Otherwise congratulation on finishing the mission!

ALCOR capsule: Yes, it has weight and size advantage over the stock parts. My main concern was it will be used as a lander can which would made landings easier with more Kerbals. Otherwise as JohnFX used it for the main ship can be acceptable as he didn't really gained much advantage with it. I don't want to ban him because otherwise he did it right (did he, guys? I still didn't have time to check the mission in-depth).

But I love the ALCOR mod so I'm thinking about a new rule: it can be used if all the mission is done from IVA (except when Kerbals go on an EVA, of course). What do you think?

I'm sorry I must hurry now but will update the leaderboard for Nik333 and still looking for some help reviewing JohnFX's entry!

[Nik333]

Nik333: Congratulations, you have finished the JOOL-5 Challenge on ... omg, for Level 2 both of the Kerbals should have landed, and for Level 3 you should have brought 5 Kerbals, trained one Kerbal for each moon. So I accept this as level 1 entry, okay?

Otherwise congratulation on finishing the mission!

I know it is just Level 1. Making 2 seat landers would be maybe too hard for me. However I have wanted more Kerbals (at least 2) to see beauties of system. After all, I was doing it not only for being on this first page, but also for that feeling of conquering new system. Thank you for accepting my entry, even if it took some time (I fully understand it).

[Ziv]

Doing a JOOL-5 is always a big achievement, especially for the first time! So nice job!!

[gigaboom2]

Is the first level of winning higher or lower than the third?

[Nik333]

Is the first level of winning higher or lower than the third?

First is definitely easier, because you need 1 Kerbal and for third you need to bring 5 Kerbals with you.

[Hodo]

I know it is just Level 1. Making 2 seat landers would be maybe too hard for me. However I have wanted more Kerbals (at least 2) to see beauties of system. After all, I was doing it not only for being on this first page, but also for that feeling of conquering new system. Thank you for accepting my entry, even if it took some time (I fully understand it).

You have done something I have yet to accomplish, and that is a huge deal, be VERY proud of yourself. Congrats!