(OLD) The Ultimate Jool-5 Challenge:land Kerbals on all moons and return in one big mission

[Himynameisjake]

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because of the growing number of sample missions in the Hall of Fame, and the science collection have got easier (0.23) and because of the big rocket parts and the stronger ion in 0.23.5

I'm considering to ban refueling missions for the 1-2-3-Jeb levels. Missions with refueling would go to the Mixed Solutions category. What do you think guys?

Considering Jebediah level (and a whole lot more ) could be done in 0.23 without refueling I wouldn't be opposed to this. Though it completely changes the flight parameters of an upcoming attempt I am working on lol. Oh well, that's how things work right? Buck up buttercup and all that.

Besides Ziv, it *is* your challenge after all. Do with it what you want. The only alternative I would suggest is a distinction or something between refuels and no refuels rather than lumping everyone who refuels into mixed, but that's your call. Let me know when you decide to so I can figure out how to build my ship lol

Edited June 16, 2014 by Himynameisjake

[SSSPutnik]

Id be against refueling but I'm probably only saying that now I can play the game well enough to do without.

[Ziv]

Quick query Ziv. I'm considering doing another attempt at this with an Ion drive as the main ship, but the prototype I have up as over 380parts and is slugging my machine down a lot, and that's without the launch booster! I'm assuming a modded fuel tank to hold Xenon rather than tons of the tiny Xenon tanks is OK as long as the proportions of the fuel is right relative to stock? If so I'll either mod an existing stock tank to hold Xenon or pinch a fuel tank from another mod that does Ion engines (as long as the proportions of fuel to mass are the same as stock).

(EDIT: Looking at the Near Future Technologies Mod right now, maybe just getting a slightly larger Ion engine and a large Xenon fuel tank to cut back on parts... Further EDIT: Looks like NFT is close, but exactly stockalike. I remember another ion stockalike pack somewhere. Gonna search that up.)

The problem with modded parts is that many of them have advantage over the stock parts and so make the challenge easier. It's true when you have an absolutely stock-alike nuke engine but much shorter/smaller, or when you don't have to bring 100 ion fuel/engine, but only 1 big of each. Or 10/10 of the big ones and you have an extremely good main drive, much efficient than nukes! So, this gives you advantage. So, think of ion engines as a very new engine still under developement and those are the maximum sizes what engineers can do without an explosion.

...So yes, going with a reasonable part number is part of the challenge too... BTW your lander(s) should be very small or your main ion engines would take years to take you to Jool and back...

but I have made a Mixed Solutions category too for those who don't want to follow the rules exactly, or want to use mods heavily!

[Ziv]

Cmdr. Arn1e, Kasuha, Himynameisjake, SSSPutnik, thanks for your feedbacks!

I have decided to keep the rules about refueling. Kasuha is right, my original plan with this Challenge was to give an epic task to people without a point system, because most of the people would go for max. points and given the hardness of this challenge, most of them would quit somewhere on the way with disappointment... and I wanted to avoid this.

And also, their big mission can have some problems which turns out only on the way (lack of fuel, docking port problem or anything else), but a refueling mission could solve this problem and yes, doing the rescue mission is a punishment enough.

Maybe my problem was that I saw too many kind of JOOL-5 missions and, with the sample missions and new game versions, too much new mission is coming and new entries which don't have something new for me is just a time-consuming stuff to check/answer/update/etc... but this game and this community definitely worth the energy!

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

Maybe my problem was that I saw too many kind of JOOL-5 missions and, with the sample missions and new game versions, too much new mission is coming and new entries which don't have something new for me is just a time-consuming stuff to check/answer/update/etc... but this game and this community definitely worth the energy!

I read this as "I (you) have seen to many similar Jool-5 missions" and would like to see more variation in the spacecraft... this is why I only started this mission when I felt I was ready for the challenge, and tried to avoid looking at others entries so far... I'm hoping that my ideas are different enough from others so it's not a chore to slog through! plus, I don't recall anyone else having a theme song for their mission yet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J9jRPS5VHE

And you are most welcome; I would also have been happy with "Missions that are currently under way will fall under old rules, any new starters have to follow new rules" but as Kasuha said, we all like this mission because you are a bit more forgiving than others would be on the whole refuelling plan (and I think contenders so far have tried to limit refuel trips to just one or two if possible... but not having read too many in detail, I could be wrong) which helps attract more people to try

Edited June 16, 2014 by Cmdr. Arn1e

[Himynameisjake]

I read this as "I (you) have seen to many similar Jool-5 missions" and would like to see more variation in the spacecraft... this is why I only started this mission when I felt I was ready for the challenge, and tried to avoid looking at others entries so far... I'm hoping that my ideas are different enough from others so it's not a chore to slog through! plus, I don't recall anyone else having a theme song for their mission yet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J9jRPS5VHE

And you are most welcome; I would also have been happy with "Missions that are currently under way will fall under old rules, any new starters have to follow new rules" but as Kasuha said, we all like this mission because you are a bit more forgiving than others would be on the whole refuelling plan (and I think contenders so far have tried to limit refuel trips to just one or two if possible... but not having read too many in detail, I could be wrong) which helps attract more people to try

My trip had a theme song:

Not as impressive or inspiring as yours, much more...realistic and representative of my trip

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

My trip had a theme song:

[snipl]

Not as impressive or inspiring as yours, much more...realistic and representative of my trip

I stand corrected! And very Kerbal theme music it is too

[Himynameisjake]

I stand corrected! And very Kerbal theme music it is too

Pretty much every time I test launch a craft.

[Ziv]

I read this as "I (you) have seen to many similar Jool-5 missions" and would like to see more variation in the spacecraft...

[...]

we all like this mission because you are a bit more forgiving than others would be on the whole refuelling plan (and I think contenders so far have tried to limit refuel trips to just one or two if possible... but not having read too many in detail, I could be wrong) which helps attract more people to try

Yeah, something like that... but, to be honest, for a moment I just forgot the real purpose of this challenge and my original point of view about this Challenge to be one inspirational and with a high information-density inside, so, sorry about that.

But refueling missions should be avoided basically, that's more pretty that way...!

[Himynameisjake]

Yeah, something like that... but, to be honest, for a moment I just forgot the real purpose of this challenge and my original point of view about this Challenge to be one inspirational and with a high information-density inside, so, sorry about that.

But refueling missions should be avoided basically, that's more pretty that way...!

Perhaps instead a simple distinction would be sufficient. "You can take it with you" or something like that. That way people are still inspired to go for the hard levels, but have an added desire to complete with distinction.

[Stratzenblitz75]

Hey Ziv, In my most recent episode of the Outer Wilds mission, my Eve lander suffered a severe kraken attack. Basically the Eve lander's command chair module, despite being attached to central fuel tank hard point in the VAB, somehow got attached to one of the asparagus stages by a strange "phantom link". Therefore, when I stage the lander, this phantom connection tears the command chair off the central core, and takes it down with the spent stage. Obviously, this bug makes the otherwise perfectly capable Eve lander unusable and unfortunately, quick loading does not fix it.

So, I employed the use of Hyperedit to cheat an exact copy of the Eve lander (with the attachment bug fixed) over to the original lander. Then, I disposed of the original and continued with the mission.

My question is, does this act of cheating, even if it was used to workaround a BS bug, invalidate my mission from being eligible in the Jool-5 challenge?

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

Yeah, something like that... but, to be honest, for a moment I just forgot the real purpose of this challenge and my original point of view about this Challenge to be one inspirational and with a high information-density inside, so, sorry about that.

But refueling missions should be avoided basically, that's more pretty that way...!

That's what I was thinking, thanks for clearing it up! And no need to apologise; revising the rules is well within your rights as the challenge-setter, but if we think you are going too far we will say, as has happened this time

Hopefully I'll only need this one refuel mission... but now I have the refuel vessel, if it comes to it I won't be leaving any kerbals behind! and I don't ind if I get penalised for it - I will just have another go from scratch, using what I have learnt this time...

So, I employed the use of Hyperedit to cheat an exact copy of the Eve lander (with the attachment bug fixed) over to the original lander. Then, I disposed of the original and continued with the mission.

My question is, does this act of cheating, even if it was used to workaround a BS bug, invalidate my mission from being eligible in the Jool-5 challenge?

When SSSPutnik had an issue with one of his landers, Ziv allowed him to re-launch the lander on its own to replace the broken one, but not after SSSPutnik had done the same as you - it was decided that Hyperedit is cheating!

BUT, having said this, I'm not sure if he would allow or not in your case, as it isn't on the Jool leg of your Grand Tour... so I guess the only person you're cheating is yourself, really... (heh, and I thought I was having trouble with my refuelling mission! Only taken me about a month and a half RT to sort out!)

[Himynameisjake]

Hey Ziv, In my most recent episode of the Outer Wilds mission, my Eve lander suffered a severe kraken attack. Basically the Eve lander's command chair module, despite being attached to central fuel tank hard point in the VAB, somehow got attached to one of the asparagus stages by a strange "phantom link". Therefore, when I stage the lander, this phantom connection tears the command chair off the central core, and takes it down with the spent stage. Obviously, this bug makes the otherwise perfectly capable Eve lander unusable and unfortunately, quick loading does not fix it.

So, I employed the use of Hyperedit to cheat an exact copy of the Eve lander (with the attachment bug fixed) over to the original lander. Then, I disposed of the original and continued with the mission.

My question is, does this act of cheating, even if it was used to workaround a BS bug, invalidate my mission from being eligible in the Jool-5 challenge?

Hyper edit has been considered cheating in the past, he might allow it, but he will definitely list that you used hyper edit and add a launch to your launch count =/

[Patupi]

The problem with modded parts is that many of them have advantage over the stock parts and so make the challenge easier. It's true when you have an absolutely stock-alike nuke engine but much shorter/smaller, or when you don't have to bring 100 ion fuel/engine, but only 1 big of each. Or 10/10 of the big ones and you have an extremely good main drive, much efficient than nukes! So, this gives you advantage. So, think of ion engines as a very new engine still under developement and those are the maximum sizes what engineers can do without an explosion.

...So yes, going with a reasonable part number is part of the challenge too... BTW your lander(s) should be very small or your main ion engines would take years to take you to Jool and back...

but I have made a Mixed Solutions category too for those who don't want to follow the rules exactly, or want to use mods heavily!

To be honest I can work with the stock ion drives, it's the piddly little xenon fuel tanks that are just killing me. But if the rules are no stock I understand. I'll have to rethink this. I actually had a near workable ship with 486 parts, but with my machine it was killing it. And that was before sticking the launch boosters on!

[Ziv]

Basically the Eve lander's command chair module, despite being attached to central fuel tank hard point in the VAB, somehow got attached to one of the asparagus stages by a strange "phantom link". Therefore, when I stage the lander, this phantom connection tears the command chair off the central core, and takes it down with the spent stage. Obviously, this bug makes the otherwise perfectly capable Eve lander unusable and unfortunately, quick loading does not fix it.

So, I employed the use of Hyperedit to cheat an exact copy of the Eve lander (with the attachment bug fixed) over to the original lander. Then, I disposed of the original and continued with the mission.

My question is, does this act of cheating, even if it was used to workaround a BS bug, invalidate my mission from being eligible in the Jool-5 challenge?

My opinion: if you made a mistake on the ship before launch and you realize the problem only during the flight then you have to deal with it in "real life", so no hyperedit. This case you may send a replacement ship or some other, no-cheating solution.

But if that is a kraken attack, or a corrupt save file, etc. so the problem is not your fault then you can use hyperedit or edit the save file to repair the bug.

[Ziv]

To be honest I can work with the stock ion drives, it's the piddly little xenon fuel tanks that are just killing me. But if the rules are no stock I understand. I'll have to rethink this. I actually had a near workable ship with 486 parts, but with my machine it was killing it. And that was before sticking the launch boosters on!

Basically keeping the part number under the manageable level is part of the challenge. It's like you can't build a 800m high rocket in real life because the materials are not strong enough...

But I suggest you to test your idea: count (or guess) the weight of your final ship, and put that test weight on ion drives, and try it in space... I guess you will not want to go with ions as main engines for the main ship!

[Patupi]

Basically keeping the part number under the manageable level is part of the challenge. It's like you can't build a 800m high rocket in real life because the materials are not strong enough...

But I suggest you to test your idea: count (or guess) the weight of your final ship, and put that test weight on ion drives, and try it in space... I guess you will not want to go with ions as main engines for the main ship!

Oh, I have, with the full prototype vessel, and got a whopping 0.08g acceleration! (It was actually 0.19g, but didn't have the power even at Kerbin orbit to go full thrust for long). And that was with a lot of ion drives. Cutting the drives down (so the ship didn't look like a solar power porcupine) took it down to 0.03 ish, which I have done before, though you have to either start at a high orbit, or do multiple passes to get a transfer burn... and it takes an hour or more. Still, it is efficient!

Edited June 17, 2014 by Patupi

[Stratzenblitz75]

My opinion: if you made a mistake on the ship before launch and you realize the problem only during the flight then you have to deal with it in "real life", so no hyperedit. This case you may send a replacement ship or some other, no-cheating solution.

But if that is a kraken attack, or a corrupt save file, etc. so the problem is not your fault then you can use hyperedit or edit the save file to repair the bug.

Thanks for clarifying your stance on this issue. I'm glad that my fix for this strange bug hasn't disqualified me from the challenge . Lets just hope it doesn't happen again... I kinda want my equipment to not be tangled in quantum connections .

[SSSPutnik]

Yeah I think that's fair, my issue was a design mistake, not a bug. Still angry at myself, one part out of 1150 stuffed me.

Edited June 17, 2014 by SSSPutnik

[SSSPutnik]

@Ziv here is my entry. It needs tidying. Kethane expedition style. Total of 205 points due to mass...

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/57197-The-ultimate-Jool-5-challenge-land-Kerbals-on-all-moons-and-return-in-one-big-misson?p=1188218&viewfull=1#post1188218

[Ziv]

@Ziv here is my entry. It needs tidying. Kethane expedition style. Total of 205 points due to mass...

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/57197-The-ultimate-Jool-5-challenge-land-Kerbals-on-all-moons-and-return-in-one-big-misson?p=1188218&viewfull=1#post1188218

I have to work now so I just took some glance at the pictures but looks awesome!! Yeah, those LLL parts make it to a whole new style!

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

Random update; SUCCESS!!! My fuel tanker has arrived, with 4 full orange tanks (hopefully enough to complete the mission now!)

Once docking/fuel transfer is complete, I shall be crashing the refuel ship into the Laythe ocean...

And hopefully the Laythe 1 plane will be able to fulfill its mission and then get dumped in a similar fashion, then it's onto Vall

[Jasonden]

one part out of 1150 stuffed me.

Geez, 1150 parts! What's your frame rate, one every few seconds?

[Startreader]

I did this challenge, but unfortunately I didn't take any pictures so I can't PROVE I did it. The whole mission inspired me to create a NASA-esque mission report that I may not may not publish to the forums.

[Ziv]

@Ziv here is my entry. It needs tidying. Kethane expedition style. Total of 205 points due to mass...

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/57197-The-ultimate-Jool-5-challenge-land-Kerbals-on-all-moons-and-return-in-one-big-misson?p=1188218&viewfull=1#post1188218

SSSPutnik, Congratulations, you have finished the JOOL-5 mission with an awesome Kethane Expedition!

It will look awesome when you will arrange the pictures by time! Well planned, I really liked all your ships: the miners, the bases, the rovers... nice and unique solutions. And that's a huge main ship!

And it worth to examine the design of the vehicles because there are some nice solutions like the rotating light on the rover, or the giant antenna on the main ship...!

Really awesome mission, well done!

Edited June 18, 2014 by Ziv